My final HH planning meeting

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Awesome

[HeritorA]

There were a few bad eggs, but overall the Index Astartes series was a welcome expansion of the main Legion's and Chapter's lore. Some, like the Iron Hands and Raven Guard, had not really had any description at all up to that point (and perhaps in case of the Iron Hands the background made up from scratch was not th egreatest), and the traitor Legions had only had brief descriptions in the 2nd Edition Codex Chaos. Really, the "big four" had been the only Chapters with detailed background up to the point of the Index Astartes articles. The following Codices again only had shorter sections fo each Chapter or traitor Legion, so the Index Astartes articles would remain the most detailed background for most of them for years to come.

The Forgeworld books are the only source that rivals the Index Astartes series in terms of quantity and detail. And while they go into much more detail about the Great Crusade period of each Legion, they do not adress their history thoughout the entire Heresy, the Scouring, and the following ten thousand years. So while the Forgeworld books certainly replace some aspects of the Index Astartes articles, they are not replacing them entirely.

Plus, the Forgeworld articles do contain a few "bad eggs" as well.

Bad eggs? Where? All the Forge World HH fluff is awesome!

Not a fan of Merret anymore .

Why?

'There were some real gems there though. The brief depiction of the Cleansing of the Laer in the Emperor's Children IA article was so much more evocative than how it ended up in Fulgrim.'

- true, so true. All the famous campaigns and Legion history chapters are uber cool!

[Legatus]

Bad eggs? Where? All the Forge World HH fluff is awesome!

 

I am not supposed to talk about it... but no, all FW HH fluff is most certainly not awesome.

 

Another Forgeworld take in the lore that I find most unfortunate is the "genetic-determinism". It was not Perturabo who had learned siege techniques growing up and then made his Legion into siege specialists. No, they were genetically engineered by the Emperor to be siege specialists. It was not Corax growing up as a freedom/guerilla fighter and then teaching that to his Legion that made the Raven Guard into stealth specialists. No, they were stealth experts even before Corax was found and reunited with the Legion. Being very analytical and mindful of mission parameters and casualties is not what Guilliman had studied on Macragge and then brought to his Legion. No, the Ultramarines Legion already used such doctrines before Guiliman was found. The Night Lords did not just start to be infused with more and more criminal scum after Curze was found and they started recruiting from Nostramo. No, the Legion had been founded with criminal scum right from the very beginning.

In Forgeworld lore, the Legions were no longer shaped by their Primarchs and how they happened to grow up on their homeworlds. Instead, virtually all of their unique doctrines had been built into them intentionally from the start. By cosmic miracle the Primarchs then grew up learning specifically those same doctrines their Legion had been genetically engineered to use in the first place.

 

 

Edit: To clarify, since here I go being all negative again: The forgeworld lore is for the most part very good, and of high quality. I usually refer to the Alpha Legion treatment as a very positive example, where Alan admirably managed to merge the older Codex descriptions of the Alpha Legion as ruthless and efficient combatants with the Black Library descriptions of secret infiltration agents in power armour.

[HeritorA]

 

Bad eggs? Where? All the Forge World HH fluff is awesome!

 

I am not supposed to talk about it... but no, all FW HH fluff is most certainly not awesome.

 

Another Forgeworld take in the lore that I find most unfortunate is the "genetic-determinism". It was not Perturabo who had learned siege techniques growing up and then made his Legion into siege specialists. No, they were genetically engineered by the Emperor to be siege specialists. It was not Corax growing up as a freedom/guerilla fighter and then teaching that to his Legion that made the Raven Guard into stealth specialists. No, they were stealth experts even before Corax was found and reunited with the Legion. Being very analytical and mindful of mission parameters and casualties is not what Guilliman had studied on Macragge and then brought to his Legion. No, the Ultramarines Legion already used such doctrines before Guiliman was found. The Night Lords did not just start to be infused with more and more criminal scum after Curze was found and they started recruiting from Nostramo. No, the Legion had been founded with criminal scum right from the very beginning.

In Forgeworld lore, the Legions were no longer shaped by their Primarchs and how they happened to grow up on their homeworlds. Instead, virtually all of their unique doctrines had been built into them intentionally from the start. By cosmic miracle the Primarchs then grew up learning specifically those same doctrines their Legion had been genetically engineered to use in the first place.

 

 

Edit: To clarify, since here I go being all negative again: The forgeworld lore is for the most part very good, and of high quality. I usually refer to the Alpha Legion treatment as a very positive example, where Alan admirably managed to merge the older Codex descriptions of the Alpha Legion as ruthless and efficient combatants with the Black Library descriptions of secret infiltration agents in power armour.

 

True, but as Laurie said - tis all written by 'questinable' account 'AKA' :)

[Scribe]

RG pre-corax didnt seem very stealthy or freedom fighter-ish...

[Legatus]

They do in 'HH3: Extermination' on page 131, where the Legion pre-Corax is described.

[Scribe]

They do in 'HH3: Extermination' on page 131, where the Legion pre-Corax is described.

 

I re-read it, and yes you are correct. :]

 

I was in my mind emphasizing the portions about the savageness, the ruthless attacks, and so on, and glazed over on the infiltration portions.

[bloodhound23]

 

Bad eggs? Where? All the Forge World HH fluff is awesome!

 

I am not supposed to talk about it... but no, all FW HH fluff is most certainly not awesome.

 

Another Forgeworld take in the lore that I find most unfortunate is the "genetic-determinism". It was not Perturabo who had learned siege techniques growing up and then made his Legion into siege specialists. No, they were genetically engineered by the Emperor to be siege specialists. It was not Corax growing up as a freedom/guerilla fighter and then teaching that to his Legion that made the Raven Guard into stealth specialists. No, they were stealth experts even before Corax was found and reunited with the Legion. Being very analytical and mindful of mission parameters and casualties is not what Guilliman had studied on Macragge and then brought to his Legion. No, the Ultramarines Legion already used such doctrines before Guiliman was found. The Night Lords did not just start to be infused with more and more criminal scum after Curze was found and they started recruiting from Nostramo. No, the Legion had been founded with criminal scum right from the very beginning.

In Forgeworld lore, the Legions were no longer shaped by their Primarchs and how they happened to grow up on their homeworlds. Instead, virtually all of their unique doctrines had been built into them intentionally from the start. By cosmic miracle the Primarchs then grew up learning specifically those same doctrines their Legion had been genetically engineered to use in the first place.

 

 

Edit: To clarify, since here I go being all negative again: The forgeworld lore is for the most part very good, and of high quality. I usually refer to the Alpha Legion treatment as a very positive example, where Alan admirably managed to merge the older Codex descriptions of the Alpha Legion as ruthless and efficient combatants with the Black Library descriptions of secret infiltration agents in power armour.

 

 

This is not exactly a deal breaker for me, but...

 

I too have the FW HH books and I had not noticed this particular aspect of the retcon. (I've only browsed them, mostly. They're A LOT.)

 

This is highly disappointing. Sure, the primarchs in some cases are directed by a bit of self-selection bias, but aren't some of these homeworld cultural/environmental constraints waaaay too specific? Or was it also the machinations of the Chaos gods that send the various Primarchs who (think Ferrus or Konrad Curze ) were already predisposed to being good at particular tasks/skills to *just the right worlds* to allow those predispositions to blossom?

 

Perhaps the latter would be an interesting way to develop this new piece of weird plot machinery, but as far as I know it's not out there and seems to be (unfortunately) just as convenient of a solution as the convenience of the problem I tried to describe.

[Hrolleif]

I'm trying to remain civilized in light of this news.

[Legatus]

Or was it also the machinations of the Chaos gods that send the various Primarchs who (think Ferrus or Konrad Curze ) were already predisposed to being good at particular tasks/skills to *just the right worlds* to allow those predispositions to blossom?

 

It had been the Chaos Gods who had stolen the Primarch incubation capsules and scattered then all over the galaxy. The Emperor had to go and search for them, so he did not seem to have a hand in where they landed. Though in some cases (mainly Guilliman) it is said that "some people believed" that the Emperor had him come to Macragge intentionally, since it would be of such a great benefit to the world and surrounding systems. But that is probably just superstition.

[HeritorA]

 

Or was it also the machinations of the Chaos gods that send the various Primarchs who (think Ferrus or Konrad Curze ) were already predisposed to being good at particular tasks/skills to *just the right worlds* to allow those predispositions to blossom?

 

It had been the Chaos Gods who had stolen the Primarch incubation capsules and scattered then all over the galaxy. The Emperor had to go and search for them, so he did not seem to have a hand in where they landed. Though in some cases (mainly Guilliman) it is said that "some people believed" that the Emperor had him come to Macragge intentionally, since it would be of such a great benefit to the world and surrounding systems. But that is probably just superstition.

 

And not only him. Same happened with the Angel

[bloodhound23]

So I guess my question is this: did they just scatter them, or did they do it for that purpose?

[LaurieJGoulding]

To come back to the question of "Why do I hate Index Astartes?" - I don't hate them. I think there were some really interesting ideas in there, and as people have said, they were the only place to get pre-Heresy info on a lot of the Legions for a loooooong time.

 

But they are out of date, with regard to the canon. Newer stuff has replaced them. They are becoming obsolete as newer publications cover the same content, in a more relevant and better-written way.

 

It's like Rogue Trader (which is getting a reprint, did you see that? Awesome!) being heralded as "the only true 40k canon". Utter bobbins, say I. That's like saying that the first ever car was the best and no subsequent design or model will ever out-perform it. Sure, appreciate the retro entertainment of a book nearly 30 years old, but don't call it canon anymore.

 

===

 

And if anyone was a fan of Alan Merrett's work but then changed their opinion based on that screen-capture... well, may your neckbeard grow ever longer.

[Arkangilos]

What exactly is a neck beard? Like where did that phrase come from? Lol.

[Marshal Rohr]

What exactly is a neck beard? Like where did that phrase come from? Lol.

People used to let their facial hair grow way down their necks in an attempt to hide double and triple chins. In this day and age a neckbeard is anyone you don't like on the internet, whether they have a beard or not. It's a perjorative associated with virginity and being overly emotional. It symbolizes the nerdy internet warrior taking up the cause of social justice or patriotic correctness depending on your own personal flavor of politics. So if someone ever calls you a neckbeard, deck them.

 

 

The more you knowwwwwww :P

[Kelborn]

I don't even know who this guy is. ^^

Do I have to take his post with sarcasm or why did you had a problem with answering it?

[HeritorA]

I don't even know who this guy is. ^^

Do I have to take his post with sarcasm or why did you had a problem with answering it?

Healthy dose of black humor and sarcasm is always welcomed :)

[LaurieJGoulding]

I don't even know who this guy is. ^^

 

Google is your friend.

[Kelborn]

Aha. So he's the guy behind Visions and Age of Sigmar. So what?

Ah never mind. I'll take it as beef between both of you. ;)

[LaurieJGoulding]

He was the consultant for all of Games Workshop's IP for decades. He wrote the original version of the full Horus Heresy after Bill King's Siege of Terra synopsis, the one that certain elements of the fanbase can't get past being "the only true canon".

 

I'm amazed that any hardcore fan of Warhammer can not know who Alan Merrett is.

 

You know Rick Priestley, right? And Jervis Johnson?

[Marshal Rohr]

Jervis Johnson founded Johnson & Johnson with the Rock, right?

[ZebraM]

Is Rick Priestley part of the Ecclesiarchy?

[Kelborn]

He was the consultant for all of Games Workshop's IP for decades. He wrote the original version of the full Horus Heresy after Bill King's Siege of Terra synopsis, the one that certain elements of the fanbase can't get past being "the only true canon".

 

I'm amazed that any hardcore fan of Warhammer can not know who Alan Merrett is.

 

You know Rick Priestley, right? And Jervis Johnson?

Thanks for clarifying.

I would never dare to call myself a hardcore fan. I started with Dawn of War and slowly dived into the lore. Though I may know some bits by now, I never engaged the persons behind the scenes.

But I know Jervis Johnson because of some WD articles. *Yay ^^*

[HeritorA]

He was the consultant for all of Games Workshop's IP for decades. He wrote the original version of the full Horus Heresy after Bill King's Siege of Terra synopsis, the one that certain elements of the fanbase can't get past being "the only true canon".

I'm amazed that any hardcore fan of Warhammer can not know who Alan Merrett is.

You know Rick Priestley, right? And Jervis Johnson?

Thanks for clarifying.

I would never dare to call myself a hardcore fan. I started with Dawn of War and slowly dived into the lore. Though I may know some bits by now, I never engaged the persons behind the scenes.

But I know Jervis Johnson because of some WD articles. *Yay ^^*

Only because of some WD articles? wow - the lore inquisition is coming for you

[Kelborn]

Indeed, that's why I'm always on a run. And I'm not even playing the game or collecting minis. :O

 

Familiar with Catch me if you can? ;)