My final HH planning meeting

[HeritorA]

I'm still confused as to how he ended The Unremembered Empire in such a weird "oh, by the way, Sanguinius, you'll be neo Emperor now" way within a few pages, and still managed to write one of the shortest HH novels in recent history.

From what I gleam from Laurie's explanations, BL does leave some room to toy with, and if anybody could make his weight work for him, it is Dan.

 

It is one of the things I frequently lament with Abnett: He writes amazing content, but falls short in the end. His novels end abruptly, leaving me asking "that's it?" usually. He might even be ending at the right spot, but the way he does just isn't up to the rest of the book in quality.

This isn't even a recent thing, though I believe it has gotten worse; Eisenhorn had similar troubles in Hereticus, and Know No Fear, or Prospero Burns, also did. Nevermind I Am Slaughter where he spent most of the novel about anything but the actual Ork invasion and killed everybody off-screen.

 

That's, in part, why I am honestly not a fan of the idea of Abnett writing the finale of the Siege of Terra. I want to be able to put down the final book with satisfaction, not being dumbfounded at an abrupt ending of the Emperor mindblasting Horus within the last 3 pages.

Agree with each point you made DC. But in case of Siege of Terra last book I do hope Abnett will finish it. (Especially if all the book would be about attack on Vengeful spirit :) )

[Redrandy93]

Laurie,

I want to take the time to thank you for all the hard work you have done these years to make the Horus Heresy series a terrific read.

Good luck on your new job and welcome to America!

[deathspectersgt7]

So about Daedalus ? when ?when ?when ?

[HeritorA]

So about Daedalus ? when ?when ?when ?

March pre-order April release I think.

Laurie,

I want to take the time to thank you for all the hard work you have done these years to make the Horus Heresy series a terrific read.

Good luck on your new job and welcome to America!

Welcome to the colonies Laurie, prepare the speech and the turkey And by the way - say hi to McNeil

[Felix Antipodes]

Laurie, I also want to thank you for all the effort you have put in with BL over the years in both an editorial and writing capacity.  Not an easy job to start with and made harder by all the feral fans nipping at your heels whenever something comes out that disagrees with their head-canon.  Enjoy life among the yankees in your next career step.

 

Out of curiosity, who will be replacing you in the vacated editorial seat?

[Phoebus]

It works with games like "Space Marine" ... which got the prowess of a Space Marine just right.

I fixed that for you! ;)

[Ascanius]

I'll add my voice to the chorus - may the Force be with you, Laurie!

 

GW need to diversify their product range to appeal to a wider range of customers. Absolutely they need to appeal to early teen boys as they are their future customers. BUT they also need to provide product for older (and arguably more sophisticated) customer groups.

 

I agree. Perhaps especially since I mostly listen to Horus Heresy audiobooks rather than read the printed (or e-printed) books, I really do find lengthy descriptions of battles tiresome.

 

At best, a lengthy fight scene will allow an author to depict their characters' qualities in a new way. At worst, it's a tedious recitation of action laced with purple descriptions of exploding heads and torn-open bodies.

 

The best stories in the Horus Heresy series, for me, are the ones which actually engage with the ideas underpinning the setting - the unknown dangers of the Warp, the politics and character of the Emperor's realm, the purpose of the Legiones Astartes, to whom you owe your loyalty, et cetera.

 

But then, I've always preferred science fiction which takes its fantastical premises and uses them to tell stories about different aspects of the human condition. I grew up reading my Baby Boomer father's Isaac Asimov, Ray Bradbury, and Robert Heinlein books, so it's that literature of ideas where you can ask questions like "What price survival?" - the quintessential question of the 40K setting, if you ask me - that I really dig.

[MrDarth151]

But then, I've always preferred science fiction which takes its fantastical premises and uses them to tell stories about different aspects of the human condition. I grew up reading my Baby Boomer father's Isaac Asimov, Ray Bradbury, and Robert Heinlein books, so it's that literature of ideas where you can ask questions like "What price survival?" - the quintessential question of the 40K setting, if you ask me - that I really dig.

 

40k has no capability to carry such themes.

[mc warhammer]

 

 

 

But then, I've always preferred science fiction which takes its fantastical premises and uses them to tell stories about different aspects of the human condition. I grew up reading my Baby Boomer father's Isaac Asimov, Ray Bradbury, and Robert Heinlein books, so it's that literature of ideas where you can ask questions like "What price survival?" - the quintessential question of the 40K setting, if you ask me - that I really dig.

40k has no capability to carry such themes.

in the grim dark of bolter and chainsword there is only sulking.

 

or, the empire of man declining does not = no survival

 

and the price of survival can still be weighed by an unwillingness or inability to pay it. look at "the walking dead" (another universe where humanity as we know it will not win)

[MrDarth151]

 

 

 

But then, I've always preferred science fiction which takes its fantastical premises and uses them to tell stories about different aspects of the human condition. I grew up reading my Baby Boomer father's Isaac Asimov, Ray Bradbury, and Robert Heinlein books, so it's that literature of ideas where you can ask questions like "What price survival?" - the quintessential question of the 40K setting, if you ask me - that I really dig.

40k has no capability to carry such themes.

in the grim dark of bolter and chainsword there is only sulking.

 

or, the empire of man declining does not = no survival

 

and the price of survival can still be weighed by an unwillingness or inability to pay it. look at "the walking dead" (another universe where humanity as we know it will not win)

 

 

Not because of that. Consider: The most prominent and central theme of 40k is the so called Grimdarkness. The universe is, by nature, horrible. The universe cannot be improved upon.

 

And here in lies the problem: Complex and/or ambigious morality relies on the capability for change. The basic of moral responsibility is capability, or your own power. That's why random person is not responsible for planes falling from the skies: They've had no capability of stopping it.

 

We've had the discussion with Laurie about that. IoM cannot be improved or saved by ordinary men. You cannot have the philosophical question of means, if you are claiming that the best means are already used. And if the best means are not used, then IoM can in fact be improved and can in fact be made to be better.

 

You cannot have both. It is contradictory.

[HeritorA]

 

 

 

But then, I've always preferred science fiction which takes its fantastical premises and uses them to tell stories about different aspects of the human condition. I grew up reading my Baby Boomer father's Isaac Asimov, Ray Bradbury, and Robert Heinlein books, so it's that literature of ideas where you can ask questions like "What price survival?" - the quintessential question of the 40K setting, if you ask me - that I really dig.

40k has no capability to carry such themes.

in the grim dark of bolter and chainsword there is only sulking.

 

or, the empire of man declining does not = no survival

 

and the price of survival can still be weighed by an unwillingness or inability to pay it. look at "the walking dead" (another universe where humanity as we know it will not win)

 

 

Not because of that. Consider: The most prominent and central theme of 40k is the so called Grimdarkness. The universe is, by nature, horrible. The universe cannot be improved upon.

 

And here in lies the problem: Complex and/or ambigious morality relies on the capability for change. The basic of moral responsibility is capability, or your own power. That's why random person is not responsible for planes falling from the skies: They've had no capability of stopping it.

 

We've had the discussion with Laurie about that. IoM cannot be improved or saved by ordinary men. You cannot have the philosophical question of means, if you are claiming that the best means are already used. And if the best means are not used, then IoM can in fact be improved and can in fact be made to be better.

 

You cannot have both. It is contradictory.

 

What???? What do you mean 'The universe cannot be improved upon.'

It can and it should. 

'And if the best means are not used, then IoM can in fact be improved and can in fact be made to be better.' - 

 It will be improved then Guilliman or Lion will appear simply kill all Ecclesiarhy and start a holy war for Imperial truth :)

Would be called 'A time of Lion/Guilliman Heresy' ;)

In all seriousness - you can save Imperium, if a lot of 'random' people, SM, High Lords, Inqusitors will come to one  point - and fully agree on futher 'life' of Imperium. For that they need to create a Galaxy level meating between all the ruling branches. Which in itself is impossible - cause even some of them can't show their true personas in the open etc. etc

Imperium of Mankind in w40k is an Uroboros - eating it's own tail and failing to get free. 

[Marshal Rohr]

 

 

 

 

 

 

But then, I've always preferred science fiction which takes its fantastical premises and uses them to tell stories about different aspects of the human condition. I grew up reading my Baby Boomer father's Isaac Asimov, Ray Bradbury, and Robert Heinlein books, so it's that literature of ideas where you can ask questions like "What price survival?" - the quintessential question of the 40K setting, if you ask me - that I really dig.

40k has no capability to carry such themes.

in the grim dark of bolter and chainsword there is only sulking.

 

or, the empire of man declining does not = no survival

 

and the price of survival can still be weighed by an unwillingness or inability to pay it. look at "the walking dead" (another universe where humanity as we know it will not win)

Not because of that. Consider: The most prominent and central theme of 40k is the so called Grimdarkness. The universe is, by nature, horrible. The universe cannot be improved upon.

 

And here in lies the problem: Complex and/or ambigious morality relies on the capability for change. The basic of moral responsibility is capability, or your own power. That's why random person is not responsible for planes falling from the skies: They've had no capability of stopping it.

 

We've had the discussion with Laurie about that. IoM cannot be improved or saved by ordinary men. You cannot have the philosophical question of means, if you are claiming that the best means are already used. And if the best means are not used, then IoM can in fact be improved and can in fact be made to be better.

 

You cannot have both. It is contradictory.

What???? What do you mean 'The universe cannot be improved upon.'

It can and it should.

'And if the best means are not used, then IoM can in fact be improved and can in fact be made to be better.' -

It will be improved then Guilliman or Lion will appear simply kill all Ecclesiarhy and start a holy war for Imperial truth :)

Would be called 'A time of Lion/Guilliman Heresy' ;)

In all seriousness - you can save Imperium, if a lot of 'random' people, SM, High Lords, Inqusitors will come to one point - and fully agree on futher 'life' of Imperium. For that they need to create a Galaxy level meating between all the ruling branches. Which in itself is impossible - cause even some of them can't show their true personas in the open etc. etc

Imperium of Mankind in w40k is an Uroboros - eating it's own tail and failing to get free.

So for mankind to save itself it would require different people with different ideologies, objectives, and political goals to come together for the sake of the species, and do the right for the most amount of people?

 

 

Yeah, then it's pretty much doomed.

[HeritorA]

But then, I've always preferred science fiction which takes its fantastical premises and uses them to tell stories about different aspects of the human condition. I grew up reading my Baby Boomer father's Isaac Asimov, Ray Bradbury, and Robert Heinlein books, so it's that literature of ideas where you can ask questions like "What price survival?" - the quintessential question of the 40K setting, if you ask me - that I really dig.

40k has no capability to carry such themes.

in the grim dark of bolter and chainsword there is only sulking.

or, the empire of man declining does not = no survival

and the price of survival can still be weighed by an unwillingness or inability to pay it. look at "the walking dead" (another universe where humanity as we know it will not win)

Not because of that. Consider: The most prominent and central theme of 40k is the so called Grimdarkness. The universe is, by nature, horrible. The universe cannot be improved upon.

And here in lies the problem: Complex and/or ambigious morality relies on the capability for change. The basic of moral responsibility is capability, or your own power. That's why random person is not responsible for planes falling from the skies: They've had no capability of stopping it.

We've had the discussion with Laurie about that. IoM cannot be improved or saved by ordinary men. You cannot have the philosophical question of means, if you are claiming that the best means are already used. And if the best means are not used, then IoM can in fact be improved and can in fact be made to be better.

You cannot have both. It is contradictory.

What???? What do you mean 'The universe cannot be improved upon.'

It can and it should.

'And if the best means are not used, then IoM can in fact be improved and can in fact be made to be better.' -

It will be improved then Guilliman or Lion will appear simply kill all Ecclesiarhy and start a holy war for Imperial truth

Would be called 'A time of Lion/Guilliman Heresy'

In all seriousness - you can save Imperium, if a lot of 'random' people, SM, High Lords, Inqusitors will come to one point - and fully agree on futher 'life' of Imperium. For that they need to create a Galaxy level meating between all the ruling branches. Which in itself is impossible - cause even some of them can't show their true personas in the open etc. etc

Imperium of Mankind in w40k is an Uroboros - eating it's own tail and failing to get free.

So for mankind to save itself it would require different people with different ideologies, objectives, and political goals to come together for the sake of the species, and do the right for the most amount of people?

Yeah, then it's pretty much doomed.

But It's the greatest of humanity character traits - 'HOPE'

And to quote one famous Librarian: 'Hope is a road to disappointment'

[MrDarth151]

But then, I've always preferred science fiction which takes its fantastical premises and uses them to tell stories about different aspects of the human condition. I grew up reading my Baby Boomer father's Isaac Asimov, Ray Bradbury, and Robert Heinlein books, so it's that literature of ideas where you can ask questions like "What price survival?" - the quintessential question of the 40K setting, if you ask me - that I really dig.

40k has no capability to carry such themes.

in the grim dark of bolter and chainsword there is only sulking.

or, the empire of man declining does not = no survival

and the price of survival can still be weighed by an unwillingness or inability to pay it. look at "the walking dead" (another universe where humanity as we know it will not win)

Not because of that. Consider: The most prominent and central theme of 40k is the so called Grimdarkness. The universe is, by nature, horrible. The universe cannot be improved upon.

And here in lies the problem: Complex and/or ambigious morality relies on the capability for change. The basic of moral responsibility is capability, or your own power. That's why random person is not responsible for planes falling from the skies: They've had no capability of stopping it.

We've had the discussion with Laurie about that. IoM cannot be improved or saved by ordinary men. You cannot have the philosophical question of means, if you are claiming that the best means are already used. And if the best means are not used, then IoM can in fact be improved and can in fact be made to be better.

You cannot have both. It is contradictory.

What???? What do you mean 'The universe cannot be improved upon.'

It can and it should.

'And if the best means are not used, then IoM can in fact be improved and can in fact be made to be better.' -

It will be improved then Guilliman or Lion will appear simply kill all Ecclesiarhy and start a holy war for Imperial truth

Would be called 'A time of Lion/Guilliman Heresy'

In all seriousness - you can save Imperium, if a lot of 'random' people, SM, High Lords, Inqusitors will come to one point - and fully agree on futher 'life' of Imperium. For that they need to create a Galaxy level meating between all the ruling branches. Which in itself is impossible - cause even some of them can't show their true personas in the open etc. etc

Imperium of Mankind in w40k is an Uroboros - eating it's own tail and failing to get free.

That's the thing though. Even if every branch of power came into one conclusion, it is still impossible to enforce it. The Imperium is simply too big for that.

We are talking about practical capability. Various ifs do not enter our equation here.

[mc warhammer]

 

 

 

But then, I've always preferred science fiction which takes its fantastical premises and uses them to tell stories about different aspects of the human condition. I grew up reading my Baby Boomer father's Isaac Asimov, Ray Bradbury, and Robert Heinlein books, so it's that literature of ideas where you can ask questions like "What price survival?" - the quintessential question of the 40K setting, if you ask me - that I really dig.

40k has no capability to carry such themes.

in the grim dark of bolter and chainsword there is only sulking.

 

or, the empire of man declining does not = no survival

 

and the price of survival can still be weighed by an unwillingness or inability to pay it. look at "the walking dead" (another universe where humanity as we know it will not win)

 

 

Not because of that. Consider: The most prominent and central theme of 40k is the so called Grimdarkness. The universe is, by nature, horrible. The universe cannot be improved upon.

 

And here in lies the problem: Complex and/or ambigious morality relies on the capability for change. The basic of moral responsibility is capability, or your own power. That's why random person is not responsible for planes falling from the skies: They've had no capability of stopping it.

 

We've had the discussion with Laurie about that. IoM cannot be improved or saved by ordinary men. You cannot have the philosophical question of means, if you are claiming that the best means are already used. And if the best means are not used, then IoM can in fact be improved and can in fact be made to be better.

 

You cannot have both. It is contradictory.

 

 

 

sure, i understand that you want to bring it back to your defined terms of discussion but are those the goal posts as set by mhacdebhandi?

 

would you also say that the worlds "the walking dead" and cormac mccarthy's "the road" or "no country for old men" or the film "these final hours" (which wrestles with whether or not morality in the face of assured destruction) also have no capacity to address the price of survival?

 

[Arkangilos]

Also, just because WE know that it cannot be improved doesn't mean the actual people in it do not. Their whole perspective is built on the idea that they are the only ones that can save it. They don't know they are doomed.

[Phoebus]

Ironically, the in-universe reality for most agents of the Imperium is precisely why Humanity is doomed. Most of them are probably convinced of the righteousness of their cause and of the invincibility of their species/realm. I imagine that anyone openly trying to raise the argument that the Imperium of Man has been in decline for ten thousand years and is teetering toward collapse would be treated as the worst kind of public enemy. The High Lords, the commanders of Segmenta, and officers as far high as sector command (or equivalent postings) are probably aware of varying degrees of the truth, but most of them won't act on any such knowledge.

[HeritorA]

Ironically, the in-universe reality for most agents of the Imperium is precisely why Humanity is doomed. Most of them are probably convinced of the righteousness of their cause and of the invincibility of their species/realm. I imagine that anyone openly trying to raise the argument that the Imperium of Man has been in decline for ten thousand years and is teetering toward collapse would be treated as the worst kind of public enemy. The High Lords, the commanders of Segmenta, and officers as far high as sector command (or equivalent postings) are probably aware of varying degrees of the truth, but most of them won't act on any such knowledge.

Sadly they are their own Uroboros in itself. Inqusition need to be a separate inside their own universe force to successfulyl fulfill their tasks - as you said. But being separate - they do wrong choices, create additional hereteks, destroyed stability and unification of whole sectors. Or by cementing it with mass extermination methods - they created a vacuum for 'good masters' which Chaos and upstart occupy more and more. SM are almost the same and Eclessiarchy going the same dogmatic way.

No hope for the Mankind (till Empra will wake up and do mass extermination)

[Scribe]

Also, just because WE know that it cannot be improved doesn't mean the actual people in it do not. Their whole perspective is built on the idea that they are the only ones that can save it. They don't know they are doomed.

 

This.

 

 

Ironically, the in-universe reality for most agents of the Imperium is precisely why Humanity is doomed. Most of them are probably convinced of the righteousness of their cause and of the invincibility of their species/realm. I imagine that anyone openly trying to raise the argument that the Imperium of Man has been in decline for ten thousand years and is teetering toward collapse would be treated as the worst kind of public enemy. The High Lords, the commanders of Segmenta, and officers as far high as sector command (or equivalent postings) are probably aware of varying degrees of the truth, but most of them won't act on any such knowledge.

 

And this.

 

People so easily forget that the universe is so vast, many will think Marines are myth...our view as readers, as targets of GW's marine spam, have a very different insight into the universe than people on the ground.

[HeritorA]

 

Also, just because WE know that it cannot be improved doesn't mean the actual people in it do not. Their whole perspective is built on the idea that they are the only ones that can save it. They don't know they are doomed.

 

This.

 

 

Ironically, the in-universe reality for most agents of the Imperium is precisely why Humanity is doomed. Most of them are probably convinced of the righteousness of their cause and of the invincibility of their species/realm. I imagine that anyone openly trying to raise the argument that the Imperium of Man has been in decline for ten thousand years and is teetering toward collapse would be treated as the worst kind of public enemy. The High Lords, the commanders of Segmenta, and officers as far high as sector command (or equivalent postings) are probably aware of varying degrees of the truth, but most of them won't act on any such knowledge.

 

And this.

 

People so easily forget that the universe is so vast, many will think Marines are myth...our view as readers, as targets of GW's marine spam, have a very different insight into the universe than people on the ground.

 

true. A lot of points and perspectives to follow. So in general - yeap. Mankind is doomed

[Kelborn]

So it's been 2 weeks since I asked Laurie about the following:

 

May we expect other chapters (besides the big ones and the released / incoming Carcharodons / Scythes) getting some love in terms of novelization?

 

He tolde me to wait for 2 weeks and therefore, here we go. ;)

[Felix Antipodes]

Still unpacking boxes in America?

[DarkChaplain]

Potentially relevant:

https://twitter.com/LaurieGoulding/status/821380127372300289

[veterannoob]

Still unpacking boxes in America?

duh...he's in LA, so he's still stuck in traffic #kiddingnotkidding

[HeritorA]

Still unpacking boxes in America?

duh...he's in LA, so he's still stuck in traffic #kiddingnotkidding

Poor poor Laurie, that's colonies for ya :)

We will see how it all plays out, for now both the 'Slaughter' and this audio are blank slates - both could be good and at the same time both could fail miserably