General Discussion Secundus

[Sigismund229]

Inspired and fired up by the reveal of SW stuff in Inferno, I've been brainstorming CL units and such. Ran into a problem though: I kinda went over the "unique items" limit without even getting into special characters...

 

Getae=Skyclaws with shields. Can exchange shields for an xtra cc weapon. Live for battle: While in cc, may re roll 1 dice on a failed LD test. Have no sarge but any of the unit can issue or accept challenges and in combat with an IC they must. Get counter attack but can't overwatch. May roll add an inch to their charge&run rolls but must attempt to charge an enemy unit within "6

 

Galloglaich=Ashetari with a different name except may take termie armour. Get some kind of "parry" special rule to show their skill with a shield.

 

Ersa Laoch=A compulsory upgrde for any dreadnought with LA(CL). Must choose between 3 provenances with different points costs= ancient wisdom, battle king and wrathful spirit.

 

Trodaiar=A replacement for breachers. Any other troops choice is a support choice.

 

Champion of Mycenae= Replacement for the Legion Champion consul choice. When in a challenge all CL within "6 gain +1LD but if killed in challenge all CL within "12 must take Ld test. May take war horn(behona), charmed or storied blade, a tale(like 40k SW sagas or BT vows). May be upgraded to be a warrior of legend.

 

Warlord of Mycenae= Replacement for a praetor and an extra consul choice. Has "warrior-king" rule(only got a vague idea at the mo). Essentialy two tiers of the same unit, one a consul tier one a praetor tier but I counted it as two seperate units.

 

Gutuatros= A cross of a librarian&chaplain, along with a "battle rites" rule(the stuff CL do to get themselves psyched up for war). Not sure what it will be just know I want to include it.

 

Mark of the Burden= May be taken by any IC or squad for a fixed points cost. No more than 1 may be taken per 2000 points. Shows that some CL are very closely affected by the Burden. Gives them rage but each turn they are in cc they take a LD test. If failed, the IC or squad are removed from play as casualties.

 

Grail of Mycenae(relic): May only be taken by a primus medicae, gives LD boost and allows for a reroll of a Mark of the Burdened LD test.

 

Falcan Blade: The same as before.

 

So there we go. What do peeps reckon I should chuck out?

[MikhalLeNoir]

Didn't you already have your units and weren't they discussed? Maybe be the one without any special chars cuz lions don't get old^^

 

Maybe you can fuse some units togheter?

[Sigismund229]

Didn't you already have your units and weren't they discussed? Maybe be the one without any special chars cuz lions don't get old^^

 

Maybe you can fuse some units togheter?

I had some basic ideas but the only two that I actually got round to writing rules for were the Myramodons(who I have decided to ditch) Getae and Ashetari. But given that the CL have changed a bit and so have the limits etc. I'm brainstorming again.

[MikhalLeNoir]

No burden unit and no mark of the burden as those would be too close in blood angels turf. But what about a general burden rule. If lions fail a ld test they got struck by the burden and lose their organized structure. Maybe they scatter forward trying to tear the enemies apart but in doing so lose their shooting ability? Or soemthing like that.

 

What is the.main focus of ypur army?

 

For the wardens we have a flexible approach. Using specialized units and the battle med itations to adapt to many situations.

The alphas achieve the se with their tactics amd their wargear.

[Kelborn]

Hm...commissar consuls could be usefull after the Bloodlords betrayal..have to think that over

 

Do they count as special units or HQ choices?

[MikhalLeNoir]

The comissar consuls seemed atm to me like very early chaplains

[Sigismund229]

No burden unit and no mark of the burden as those would be too close in blood angels turf. But what about a general burden rule. If lions fail a ld test they got struck by the burden and lose their organized structure. Maybe they scatter forward trying to tear the enemies apart but in doing so lose their shooting ability? Or soemthing like that.

 

What is the.main focus of ypur army?

 

For the wardens we have a flexible approach. Using specialized units and the battle med itations to adapt to many situations.

The alphas achieve the se with their tactics amd their wargear.

As far as Mark of the Burden goes, I was also q bit iffy about it. However, not that many Lions during the Great Crusade and Insurrection keep it close enough for it to be applicable across the whole army with any degree of accuracy to the fluff(this reminds me I need to expand its fluff). So the Mark of the Burden was an attempt to get a special rule concerning it in there in a fluff accurate way

 

Lots of shields along with germanic&celtic style warrior kings/heroes/champions

Edited February 4, 2017 by Sigismund229

[MikhalLeNoir]

Well, the thing is: a mark of the burden might count against the limits. But if you make a general rule that maybe if you roll two 1 on the ld to activate it, then it shows that the burden is a thing but it really is a rare occasion. So it still is fluffy.

 

So actually you aim for a space wolve/ blood angel/ world eater mix?

 

Maybe another way: what differs your legion from each of the others? Maybe that is the approach to go for you.

[Skalpynock]

Hm...commissar consuls could be usefull after the Bloodlords betrayal..have to think that over

 

Do they count as special units or HQ choices?

They don't have rules, but if they did I'd have them as a support consul variant, like Moritats or Primus Medicae.

[MikhalLeNoir]

They look veeeeery cool as sketch. Those helmets...sexy.

[Sigismund229]

Well, the thing is: a mark of the burden might count against the limits. But if you make a general rule that maybe if you roll two 1 on the ld to activate it, then it shows that the burden is a thing but it really is a rare occasion. So it still is fluffy.

 

So actually you aim for a space wolve/ blood angel/ world eater mix?

 

Maybe another way: what differs your legion from each of the others? Maybe that is the approach to go for you.

True enough and rolling a double 1 would be fluffy(ish).

 

Also these days there's less world eater in there than there used to be :D

 

What makes them different...using a metric :cuss tonne of shields in combination with cc ferocity?

[Raktra]

Hahahahahaaa, taking all bets on how long the 'Serkers would put up with being commissar'd.

[MikhalLeNoir]

Lol...

 

"Comissar...we lost the soap^^ it is in front of you..mind to pick it up?"

"Of course boys, you were so nice to me the last couple of moments" *commmisar is bending forward*

*countless grinders are activated*

 

 

 

@Sig: so cc with. Shields. Hmm so high ws and maybe deflect bonus for special units?

[simison]

Inspired and fired up by the reveal of SW stuff in Inferno, I've been brainstorming CL units and such. Ran into a problem though: I kinda went over the "unique items" limit without even getting into special characters...

 

Getae=Skyclaws with shields. Can exchange shields for an xtra cc weapon. Live for battle: While in cc, may re roll 1 dice on a failed LD test. Have no sarge but any of the unit can issue or accept challenges and in combat with an IC they must. Get counter attack but can't overwatch. May roll add an inch to their charge&run rolls but must attempt to charge an enemy unit within "6

 

Galloglaich=Ashetari with a different name except may take termie armour. Get some kind of "parry" special rule to show their skill with a shield.

 

Ersa Laoch=A compulsory upgrde for any dreadnought with LA(CL). Must choose between 3 provenances with different points costs= ancient wisdom, battle king and wrathful spirit.

 

Trodaiar=A replacement for breachers. Any other troops choice is a support choice.

 

Champion of Mycenae= Replacement for the Legion Champion consul choice. When in a challenge all CL within "6 gain +1LD but if killed in challenge all CL within "12 must take Ld test. May take war horn(behona), charmed or storied blade, a tale(like 40k SW sagas or BT vows). May be upgraded to be a warrior of legend.

 

Warlord of Mycenae= Replacement for a praetor and an extra consul choice. Has "warrior-king" rule(only got a vague idea at the mo). Essentialy two tiers of the same unit, one a consul tier one a praetor tier but I counted it as two seperate units.

 

Gutuatros= A cross of a librarian&chaplain, along with a "battle rites" rule(the stuff CL do to get themselves psyched up for war). Not sure what it will be just know I want to include it.

 

Mark of the Burden= May be taken by any IC or squad for a fixed points cost. No more than 1 may be taken per 2000 points. Shows that some CL are very closely affected by the Burden. Gives them rage but each turn they are in cc they take a LD test. If failed, the IC or squad are removed from play as casualties.

 

Grail of Mycenae(relic): May only be taken by a primus medicae, gives LD boost and allows for a reroll of a Mark of the Burdened LD test.

 

Falcan Blade: The same as before.

 

So there we go. What do peeps reckon I should chuck out?

 

Counting 8 units, where max would be 6, I believe.

 

Out of curiosity, with all of the replacements going on, how many unique units do the Wolves bring?

 

I feel the terminator unit is a must. Keep that. 

 

Why a unique dreadnought unit?

 

The breacher replacement unit might be the most expendable, since you already have two unique units focused on shield combat. 

 

The Warlord one has potential, but it depends entirely on the value of the warrior-king rule to distinguish it between it and a standard Praetor, who already has lots of command power as it is. The key would be showing how their added political power affects their capabilities, whereas a praetor is supposed to have only military power and indirect military power. 

[Demus Ragnok]

The Space Wolves have three units.

 

Wolf guard terminators.

 

Deathsworn pseudo destroyers.

 

Grey Slayers their version of a tactical squad, lots of options and are compulsory troops.

[Sigismund229]

They also have priests of fenris

 

and sim, I think someone said the limit is 9 legion specific things(the precise configuration, unit, character or wargear was left up to the designer)

Edited February 4, 2017 by Sigismund229

[Demus Ragnok]

They also have priests of fenris

and sim, I think someone said the limit is 9 legion specific things

Yes the priests too. But they just replace consul options so for the purposes of discussing limits I disregarded them.

[simison]

Well, my thought was that if one unit replaces another, should that count towards the limit? The only BotL example I can think of is the Pariahs replacing the Librarians. I'm not aware of a legion-specific example. Have we discussed this before?

 

The limit is 1-2-3 with 3 free slots.

[Sigismund229]

Just seen the question about the dreadnought. My idea was that seeing as the CL are more individualistic than usual, the dreadnought was essentialy 3 different "provenances". Any dreadnought with LA(CL) must take one of those three. My ideas were

 

Ancient Wisdom: Units within "6 of the dread can use its LD in place of their own

 

Battle King: +1WS

 

Wrathful Dead: Gain +D3 attacks.

 

I'd be relatuvely happy to drop it and save it for a later codex or some such thing. It was just an idea I had while brainstorming

[Sigismund229]

Well, my thought was that if one unit replaces another, should that count towards the limit? The only BotL example I can think of is the Pariahs replacing the Librarians. I'm not aware of a legion-specific example. Have we discussed this before?

 

The limit is 1-2-3 with 3 free slots.

Well, the praetor tier warlord of mycenae replaces a praetor, the gutuatros replaces both the librarian and chaplain consuls and the champion of mycenae is a replacement for the legion champion consul. In addition my idea was that Trodaiar replace breachers outright

[Doctor Perils]

What makes them different...using a metric :cuss tonne of shields in combination with cc ferocity?

??? How is that any different from the three mentioned (cc ferocity)?

 

Look, in terms of fluff your guys are fairly unique thanks to the heavy anglo-saxon themes (as opposed to the norsier* sw), but the "mark of the burden" and the "grail of mycenae" just don't sound all that different from 40k era blood angels in terms of rules (aside from sounding a bit clunky)

 

Rather then a special champion type consul, could it be more interesting to have a Burdened character type unit (probably elite rather than hq)? The way I remember your fluff for the burden it could work well, and distinguish itself from deathcompany/Wulfen or red thirst mechanics (though not so much from lone wolves unfortunately)

This character would probably be the only crimson lion without access to shields as he would be expulsed from the shield wall (or somesuch)

 

Edit: depending on the "warrior king" rule - I'd just get rid of the warlord idea: you don't seem to have much of an idea for them and other legions (from both 'verses) have officers with political aspects that aren't reflected in game terms

I don't know what the space wolvess relic is, but I'd like to see that horn become a relic instead of the grail (the grail is too close to bangels and is bothersome to the more apothecary minded legions in this 'verse)

 

Edit 2: for the galoglaich, remind us what the ashetari are? Aren't these the guys you wanted two handed daneaxes for?

Edited February 4, 2017 by Lord Thørn

[Sigismund229]

Thørn: It was mainly the shields which distinguish them from the WE, SW&BA while the cc ferocity distinguishes them from IF who also use a lot of shields if I remember right.

Aishetari are indeed the guys who I toyed with the idea od giving daneaxes to. Originally they had falcan blades, shields and specialist ammo. Galoglaich are essentialy them with a gaelic name

And the SW relic is a power claw I think so using the horn as a relic wouldn't tread on their toes

 

Working further on yesterday's brainstormed ideas, these would be my basic ideas for the rules

 

Getae

Getae Assault Squad,

The youngest and most headstrong of the Crimson Lions, the getae take the place occupied by assault squads in other legions, charging forwards in the vanguard. 

 

Getae WS3 BS3 S4 T4 W1 I4 A1 LD8 SV3+/6++

 

Wargear: Power armour, close combat weapon, combat shield, jump pack, frag&krak grenades.

Unit size: 10 getae

 

Special Rules: Legiones Astartes(Crimson Lions), Furious Charge, Live for battle, Glory hunters, Vanguard fighters, Beligerent.

 

 

Live for battle: Getae know no greater joy than the heat of battle and so, far from wearing away at their morale, battle increases it.

When in an assault, getae may re roll failed LD tests.

 

 

Glory hunters: Young as they are, getae are glory hunters. If an enemy general is sighted, it is guaranteed that every getae squad within sight of him will immediately charge towards him in an attempt to claim his head for themselves. 

Any member of a getae squad may issue or accept a challenge and if in combat with an Independent Character or a squad containing an Independent character then a member must issue a challenge.

 

 

Vanguard fighters: The getae are always found in the vanguard, charging forwards as fast as possible and into the nearest enemy, with little thought for the greater strategic picture

When rolling for run moves, getae may roll two dice and pick the highest result. If both results are poor then they may re roll both rolls and pick the highest from this second roll. Note: they must use the results of this second roll even if they are worse than the results of the first.

 

 

Beligerent: Young and confident in their abilities, the Getae will never turn down a challenge by an enemy force, instead charging straight into them, no matter the odds. However, the flip side of their confidence is that they refuse to listen to advice or orders from older and more experienced warriors

Getae have counter attack however they may never fire overwatch, if they are within 6” of an enemy squad they must attempt to charge it and they may never be joined by an Independent character nor they may ever use another squad’s LD in place of their own.

 

Galloglaich

Galloglaich Veterans

While the legions are formidable warriors, even they are not immortal. Over the decades, squads will get worn down as their members fall in war until finally only a few old and withered warriors remain. These old warriors are formed into their own squads, the Galloglaich. 

 

Gallokjarl WS4 BS4 S4 T4 W1 I4 A2 LD9 SV3+/5++

Galloglaich WS4 BS4 S4 T4 W1 I4 A1 LD9 SV3+/5++

 

Wargear: Cataphractii Terminator Armour, falcan blade, boarding shield, boltgun, specialist ammunition, frag&krak grenades

 

Falcan blade, S: user AP:4 rending

 

Unit size: 1 Gallokjarl, 9 Galloglaich

 

Special Rules: Legiones Astartes(Crimson Lions), Veteran Tactics, Parry, Death in fire.

 

 

Parry: Having fought as part of the shield wall for many decades, in some cases centuries, Galloglaich are expert at fighting as an impenetrable wall. While one of these warriors is a significant addition to a battle line, an entire squad form a nigh impenetrable wall of shields. 

When equipped with a boarding shield, the Galloglaich upgrade their invulnerable save by 1.

 

 

Death in fire: Many Galloglaich believe that they have lived long past the time when they should have fallen in war. So, for many, their ultimate goal is a glorious death in battle.

When reduced to less than 50% of their original strength, instead of falling back when they fail a LD test a Galloglaich veteran squad takes casualties equivalent to the difference by which they failed the LD test.

 

Trodaiar Breacher Squad

Trodaiar Breacher Squad

In most legions, the vast majority of their strength lies in their tactical squads. Not so the Crimson Lions, for whom the bulk of their legion fight in the shield wall. So, while Trodaiar is a term used by the Crimson Lions in a similar way to how other legions use battle brother, among outsiders it has come to refer to the typical shield equipped squads of the Crimson Lions. In a force using Legiones Astartes(Crimson Lions), Trodaiar breacher squads replace breacher squads and all Troops choices other than Trodaiar Breacher Squads count as Support Squads. 

 

Kahoier WS4 BS4 S4 T4 W1 I4 A1 LD9 SV3+/5++

Trodaiar WS4 BS4 S4 T4 W1 I4 A1 LD8 SV3+/5++

 

Wargear: Power armour, bolter, boarding shield, close combat weapon, frag&krak grenades.

 

Unit size: 1 Kahoier, 9 Trodaiar

 

Special Rules: Legiones Astartes(Crimson Lions), Born Warriors

 

Born Warriors: From the minute they can walk, the sons of Mycenae are trained in fighting with the axe and shield. As a result, the Crimson Lions use not only their close quarters weapons to fight but also their shields

Trodaiar breacher squads gain the +1A for duel wielding when using a boarding shield and close combat weapon in an assault.

 

 

 

Champion of Mycenae

Champion of Mycenae,

Among the Crimson Lions, the post of champion is almost sacred in its importance. Champion of Mycenae replaces a legion champion and so has all the rules of a legion champion consul in addition to those listed here

 

WS6 BS4 S4 T4 W2 I4 A2 LD9 SV3+

 

Wargear: Power armour, master crafted power weapon, bolt pistol, frag&krak grenades.

 

 

Unit size: 1 Champion of Mycenae

 

Special Rules: Legiones Astartes(Crimson Lions), (?)

 

(?): Single combat between champions holds a sacred place in the minds of the warriors of Mycenae and any Crimson Lion who sees his clan or brotherhood's champion in battle with their enemy's champion's heart will soar only to fall should his clan's champion fall. 

When a Champion of Mycenae is in a challenge all squads with Legiones Astartes(Crimson Lions) within “6 gain +1LD. If he is killed in a challenge then all squads with Legiones Astartes(Crimson Lions) within “12 must take a LD test.

 

 

Must take one of the following Tales:

 

Tale of the Monster Slayer: This warrior is famed for having slain a great beast

Gains preferred enemy(Monstrous Creature)

 

Tale of the Hero:This warrior is famed for his skill

Gain +1WS when in a challenge.

 

 

Tale of the Eternal Warrior: This warrior is famed for his endurance

Get a Feel No Pain(5+) when fighting in a challenge. 

 

May take:

Behona: Long has the howl of a behona heralded a charge by the tribesmen of Mycenae

May be blown once per battle. When it is blown, every squad with Legiones Astartes(Crimson Lions) within 12" gains Rage

 

Legendary Blade: Some swords have long and storied histories in the hands of Mycenae's champions

Wielder gains something

 

Gutuatros

Gutuatros

The spiritual wardens of the Crimson Lions, the Gutuatri are descendents of the seers of Mycenae, trained in their ancient arts. Gutuatri replace the Librarian and Chaplain consuls

 

WS4 BS4 S4 T4 W2 I4 A2 LD10 SV3+

 

Wargear: Power armour, Seer’s Staff, frag&krak grenades.

 

 

Seer’s Staff: When rolling Perils of the Warp, the Gutuatros may re roll a 1. In combat, a Seer’s Staff counts as a force weapon.

 

 

Unit size: 1-3 Gutuatri

 

Mastery Level 1. Biomancy, Telepathy and Divination

 

Special Rules: Legiones Astartes(Crimson Lions), Fearless, Battle Rites, Hate the traitor, Moderating Influence

 

Battle Rites: undecided on the benefits of this rule but atm I'm thinking a table you roll on before the battle 

 

Hate the traitor: Any unit with a Gutuatros attached gains Preferred Enemy(Insurrectionists and Suzerainty).

 

 

Moderating Influence: A Gutuatros may join a getae assault squad. If he does, they may use his LD in place of their own and they are no longer required to charge an enemy unit that is within 6”. 

 

Warlords of Mycenae

Warlords of Mycenae

Rix

Same stats as a centurion

Special Rules: LA(CL) Ciringite Frontem

Ciringite Frontem: If a unit contains one or models with this Special Rule, any models in this unit equipped with a Breacher Shield or Vigil Pattern Storm Shield gains +1 Toughness and Hammer of Wrath special rules when in base contact with at least 2 other models also equipped with a Breacher Shield. This bonus is lost until the start of the controlling players next turn if the unit makes any Run move, Charge move, or Sweeping Advance.

May be upgraded to have the Warrior of Legend special rule.

 

 

Myrvallen, replaces a praetor

Same stats as a Praetor

 

Special Rules: LA(CL), Warrior-king, Singular Leader, Ciringite Frontem, Warrior of legend

 

Warrior-king: Every Myrvallen rules his Clan like the warrior-kings of Mycenae’s tribes

Still undecided as to this rules effect. My current thought is that the Myrvallen and the unit he is attached to may not kill fewer enemy units than another unit with Legiones Astartes(Crimson Lions) otherwise they lose a VP

.

 

Singular Leader; No Myrvallen would bow to the authority of anyone other than the Ruirech or the Emperor.

A Myrvallen must always be your army’s warlord and you may never take more than one in an army that does not contain Hectarion

 

Ciringite Frontem: If a unit contains one or models with this Special Rule, any models in this unit equipped with a Breacher Shield or Vigil Pattern Storm Shield gains +1 Toughness and Hammer of Wrath special rules when in base contact with at least 2 other models also equipped with a Breacher Shield. This bonus is lost until the start of the controlling players next turn if the unit makes any Run move, Charge move, or Sweeping Advance.

Warrior of Legend: Any friendly unit attempting to regroup within 6" of a Warrior of Legend may reroll any failed Leadership test, and are considered to be joined by an Independent Character for the purposes of regrouping only.

 

Ersa Laoch

Ersa Laoch

Any dreadnought taken in an army with Legiones Astartes(Crimson Lions) must take one of the following for 25(?) points

Ancient Wisdom: Units within "6 of the dread can use its LD in place of their own

 

Battle King: +1WS

 

Wrathful Dead: Gain +D3 attacks.

Edited February 5, 2017 by Sigismund229

[Kelborn]

Ladies!

 

Updated schedule of FW: 15-20 books

 

Next will be Angelus

 

And we thought 10 would be too much. ^^

[simison]

Since no one has mentioned a previous discussion or ruling in replacement units, and we have the Pariah-Librarian precedent, I say that replacing canon units will not count towards the unique unit limit.

 

However, I will treat it like the Eternal Warrior issue, in that only a limited number of legions can use replacement units. The Pariah legions won't count against this limit, if they just have the Librarian-Pariah switch.

 

Heh, quote the expansion from 9 books. Did they give an idea what the extra books would cover?

 

Needless to say, the Crimson Lions get the first slot for replacements.

Edited February 5, 2017 by simison

[MikhalLeNoir]

Hmmm. Only the chaplain woukd become a light priest but that can be done through naming conventions alone.