General Discussion Secundus

[Hesh Kadesh]

Are the Ember Host all Pyrokinetics without exception Demus? Or do they have other disciplines?

[Demus Ragnok]

Some have limited talent with other disciplines but the majority are Pyros. It’s the only discipline they truly master.

[Hesh Kadesh]

Gotcha. In the process of writing prose about the Untara events, so good to know :)

[Kelborn]

Predators: Average with one tribe focusing a bit more on psykers than the rest of the Legion. Has more to do with venerating psykers / shamans of their homeworld as chosen guides / protectors. Superstitious believe and the likes.

[simison]

To chime in, Hesh, the Pariah Legions do not have access to psykers. The Godslayers are the odd man out since they've been retconned to being anti-psyker psykers. 

 

Needless to say, any Legion that has an 'average' psyker population should be completely unaffected by my suggestion. However, the list does bring up an interesting point. Should the legions with 'less than average' psykers receive a numbers boost?

 

The Eagle Warriors, given their Primarch has an above average population of psykers. 

 

Fairly certain the Void Eagles have an average population at most, just with a unique ability. 

 

Looking at the answers so far, should the Iron Bears, Harbingers, and the Halcyon Wardens take a numbers reduction?

[Skalpynock]

The Void Eagles psykers have an average number. Those displaying Deepgazing abilities are assigned to Librarium-analogue structures, while most others keep standard duties. High-ranking Void Eagles who happen to be psykers maintain the usual independance of the IV Legion, using their powers with little restraint.

 

The Morning Stars use the Blind Watchers as battle-psykers, preternaturally skilled swordsmen who just know where your blade is, and where your squad's projectiles are, and that reinforcements are coming.

[Hesh Kadesh]

Thanks, I'll update the notes tomorrow.

 

I'm not sure that having less psykers means that a legion should have larger numbers. The idea I thought between lower numbers in a psyker prioritizing legion is that they focussed on the recruitment and training of Psyker legionaries above all others, specifically choosing to recruit those.

 

I don't think the legions get additional recruitment material simply because they're choosing not to isolate themselves to psykers - or pariahs for that matter.

[simison]

Hm, I was under the impression that the gene-seed itself is a factor in the number of psykers in a Legion.

[Hesh Kadesh]

From Book 7; Inferno

 

"The sealed accounts of those involved in the later stages of the project note that successful implantation and integration of the XVth Legion's gene-seed was remarkably high."

 

"Perhaps it was because even as other Legions grew in numbers, the XVth grew slowly, its recruits selected seemingly with great caution from the stock of many worlds according to criteria that remained unclear."

 

"The careful selection of recruits, the hidden methods of selection, the meticulous preparation of the Legion's warriors, even the low numbers taken as potential recruits, all now seemed to be part of a clear purpose. The Emperor in His wisdom had created a Legion which fused the psychic potential of Mankind with the gene-alchemy of the Legiones Astartes."

 

"Part of this was because the Legion accepted so few recruits, and beyond this, further factors came into play to limit its expansion. While they harvested conquered worlds for recruits like all Legions, the numbers that the Thousand Sons took were small compared with the mass inductions of the Luna Wolves from Cthonia, or the Imperial Heralds from their cowed enemies. Even of these, records indicate that relatively few of those chosen survived the process of transformation to become a Legionary compared to the success rate of the I" Legion's induction process (generally taken as the median for such things). But it cannot be disputed that during this period what they lacked in numbers, they compensated for in effectiveness. The dominant majority of the Legion were now fully emerged psykers of some form, though of wildly differing levels of ability, and many of the rest seemed to harbour some lesser tendency. But though powerful, they remained few."

 

"No part of his Legion was accident or coincidence"

 

"The Thousand Sons Legion had never entirely shaken off the withering effects of the first decades of its existence. Over a century later, its near-extinction prior to the rediscovery of Magnus still left a shadow on the numerical strength of the Legion. Combined with its conservatism in recruitment, this legacy meant that they were amongst the smallest Legions at the time of the Burning ofProspero. Estimates of their strength place it as potentially being as high as 80,000-85,000 warriors - ironically perhaps their greatest ever number immediately before their destruction, with the bulk of this strength located on Prospero when not explicitly sent upon a mission of conquest. Even at this level of manpower, the Thousand Sons comprised one of the smallest of the Space Marine Legions. Their Legion fleet was concomitant with this size comprising, by extant records, some forty capital class vessels with perhaps three times that number of smaller vessels of various classes at their disposal."

 

"In fresh recruits he sought both psychic potential and intellectual excellence and sophistication-no mere killers bred to slaughter would carry his gene-seed."

 

So, as I understand it, the Implantation required specific people, and had a high success in the perfect conditions of the Legion's original creation, but as they undertook it themselves, despite following the stringent measures, it still failed very often, which was then combined with the limitation of choosing Latent Psykers, who also were thinkers - at least on Prospero - I'm less sure of them being able to vet such individuals on a conquered planet until 10-15 years of conquering, making it even more limited (compared to say the SoH who just dragnetted everyone of the correct age into a fight, and took the survivors. 

 

There's nothing to say that we have to follow that model though, and with multiple psyker legions, who knows? Each may be different.

Edited March 14, 2018 by Hesh Kadesh

[simison]

Perhaps, but you make solid points. I had assumed that the Thousand Sons' numbers were tied to the gene-seed, but it appears to be completely self-inflicted. The Flesh Change is a different story.

 

Under this revised understanding, I see no reason for penalizing any Legion for having a larger than average psyker contingent. Well, at least, blaming it on the gene-seed. 

[Raktra]

Regarding the “fall to Khorne” note, the plan is when the ‘serkers face the daemons that end up corrupting them, all the psykers are either targeted by the daemons specifically or just suffer critical existence failure due to their presence.

[MikhalLeNoir]

Or AS khorne hates psykers raktra simply eat: "eat well." and suddenly the hundred psykers in the Legion scream in agony AS some invisible demon tears Them apart

[simison]

Something we need to consider is a base threshold for a new legion. At the very least, I'm thinking 10,000 marines to mirror the 10,000 Custodians. At the most are the Salamanders standing at 20,000 before their first battle. 

 

I'm personally inclined towards the 10,000.

 

Forgeworld is a jerk! They make it clear in Tempest than an Alpha intake is only 'several thousand warriors'. So, that's a range of 2,000-6,000, maybe 7,000 legionaries.

Edited March 30, 2018 by simison

[simison]

Following up on my legion growth test, I'm pouring my thoughts into creating a system to calculate geneseed stability and adaptability.

 

The ideal stability rate is 100%. This means every time geneseed is implanted, it takes. This doesn't happen. Standard stability is closer to 70%. In addition to standard issues in of themselves, there's a penalty for having any inclination toward either psyker or pariah natures. 

 

Example: Halcyon Warden geneseed is noted for its high stability. Placing it at 80%. However, it has a 20% chance of turning a mundane into a psyker which translates into a 10% penalty to stability, dropping overall stability to 70%. 

 

The Grave Stalkers' geneseed has a 100% chance of creating a pariah. Thus, dropping their stability rate by 50% from 70% to 20%. Additionally, GS geneseed has its own complications, further reducing them to 10%. 

 

All of this affects the Alpha intake, which begins with a pool of 5,000 aspirants. Multiply this by geneseed stability to figure out where your legion starts at. The Halcyon Wardens initial rate of 70% multiplied with 5,000 leads to a foundation of 3,500 marines. Whereas the Grave Stalkers have the painful multiplication of 5,000 times 10% for a small 500. 

 

So, where does everyone start at? 

 

Initial Geneseed Stability & Alpha Intake

 

I: 65%/3,250 marines

II:

III: 50%/2,500 marines

IV: 70%/3,500 marines

V: 70%/ 3,500 marines

VI: 90%/2250 marines (Halved due to slower geneseed maturation)

VII: 70%/3,500 marines

VIII: 60%/ 3,000 marines

IX: 40%/2,000 marines

X: 80%/4,000 marines

XI:

XII: 60%/3,000 marines

XIII: 60%/3,000 marines

XIV: 60%/3,000 marines

XV: 10%/ 500 marines

XVI: 70%/3,500 marines (reduced to 500 marines after Neptune)

XVII: 45%/2,250 marines

XVIII: 40%/2,000 marines

XIX: 90%/4,500 marines

XX: 70%/3,500 marines

 

~~~

 

And because I can't stop. Other factors affecting legion growth: recruitment base and combat doctrine. 

 

Recruitment base is denoted by: wide, balanced, narrow. Note, wide can mean a stellar empire or simply press-ganging every poor soul the legion comes across (a la World Eaters). Narrow can mean recruiting from a single planet for the entire legion.

 

[Note, most Legions are "Narrow" when it comes to Recruitment since everyone is just using Terran tithe rights at this stage.]

 

Combat Doctrine in this case is defined as: aggressive, balanced, defensive. This is to be understood in the context of willingness to sacrifice life for victory. The Void Eagles obviously don't care about collateral damage, while the Halcyon Wardens are extremely aware of the human cost.

 

Wide & Defensive each add positive 100 marine per year (mpy) modifier

Narrow & Aggressive each subtract 100 mpy.  

 

Note: if your Legion isn't affected by your Primarch's Discovery, feel free to skip this stage.

 

Pre-Primarch Marines Per Year, Combat Doctrine and Recruitment Base

 

I: 550 mpy/Narrow & Balanced

II:

III: 300 mpy/Narrow & Aggressive

IV: 600 mpy/Narrow & Balanced

V: 500 mpy/Narrow & Aggressive

VI: 350 mpy/Narrow & Aggressive

VII: 700 mpy/Narrow & Defensive

VIII: 400 mpy/Narrow & Aggressive

IX: 300 mpy/Narrow & Balanced

X: 700 mpy/Narrow & Balanced

XI:

XII: 400 mpy/Narrow & Aggressive

XIII: 500 mpy/Narrow & Balanced

XIV: 600 mpy/Narrow & Defensive

XV: 100 mpy/Narrow & Defensive

XVI: 600 mpy/Narrow & Balanced

XVII: 350 mpy/Narrow & Balanced

XVIII: 200 mpy/Narrow & Aggressive

XIX: 700 mpy/Narrow & Aggressive

XX: 500 mpy/Narrow & Aggressive

 

~~~

 

Primarchs can have a tremendous impact on a legion. Here is a section for those willing to calculate the math. Discovery dates are on the first page of the General Discussion thread. 

 

A Primarch found halves the mundane penalty rate. So, the HW mundane penalty of 20% is divided in half, bringing their overall rate back up to 80%. 

 

Meanwhile the GS only enjoy a boost of 5%, bringing them up to 15%.

 

This all leads to hard numbers for a general idea of growth and legion size by Primarch discovery.

Standard legion growth is 700 marines per year at 70% geneseed stability.

Each difference of 10% translates into 100 marine difference per year. 

 

Additional rating for recruitment base: 'Empire', increases mpy by 200.

 

Improved geneseed stability, Primarch Reforms and numbers at Primarch Discovery

 

I: 70%/Empire & Balanced/6,000 marines

II:

III: 75%/Empire & Aggressive/28,900 marines

IV: 85%/Wide & Aggressive/83,300 marines

V: 80%/Empire & Defensive/20,900 marines

VI: 95%/Empire & Aggressive/21,500 marines

VII: 85%/Balanced & Aggressive/85,400 marines

VIII: 75%/Balanced & Aggressive/43,000 marines

IX: 80%/Wide & Defensive/21,500 marines

X: 90%/Empire & Balanced/48,100 marines

XI: 80%/Narrow & Balanced/19,400 marines

XII: 65%/Narrow & Defensive/49,800 marines

XIII: 75%/Narrow & Aggressive/54,000 marines

XIV: 80%/Narrow & Defensive/68,400 marines

XV: 15%/Narrow & Defensive/14,700 marines

XVI: 85%/Balanced & Balanced/56,900 marines

XVII: 80%/Narrow & Balanced/63,150 marines

XVIII: 80%/Narrow & Defensive/19,400 marines 

XIX: 95%/Balanced & Defensive/54,900 marines

XX: 85%/Narrow & Aggressive/57,000 marines

 

 

 

~~~~

 

This all leads to hard numbers for Post-Primarch growth and DoR legion size.

Standard legion growth is 700 marines per year at 70% geneseed stability. Each difference of 10% translates into 100 marine difference per year. 

 

For number of years, subtract total Great Crusade length (231 years/031) from Primarch Discovery year. 

 

Example: Alexandros is found in 829. 1031- 829 = 202 years.

 

Once you have the number of marines from Primarch Discovery to DoR, add in the legion size upon Primarch Discovery. (AKA, the legion size right above.)

 

Final MPY & DoR Legion Size

 

I: 900 mpy/209,400 marines

II:

III: 850 mpy/150,450 marines

IV: 850 mpy/166,600 marines

V: 1,100 mpy/243,100 marines 

VI: 525 mpy/113,900 marines 

VII: 750 mpy/170,900 marines (Includes both Shepherds & Berserkers)

VIII: 650 mpy/128,150 marines 

IX: 1,100 mpy/197,500 marines

X: 900 mpy/199,300 marines 

XI:

XII: 600 mpy/118,200 marines

XIII: 550 mpy/124,950 marines

XIV: 800 mpy/ 166,000 marines

XV: 150 mpy/27,300 marines 

XVI: 850 mpy/173,350 marines

XVII: 700 mpy/103,050 marines 

XVIII: 800 mpy/134,600 marines

XIX: 1,150 mpy/237,750 marines

XX: 650 mpy/133,050 marines

 

Keep in mind, these are just base estimates and not final tallies. War is much more chaotic than this.

Edited March 31, 2018 by simison

[Demus Ragnok]

The Xth has very stable gene seed so 80% success rate gives 4000 initial induction.

 

Their recruitment I’m going to call balanced as they draw from Obsailes as well as other human world’s they encountered during the crusade.

I’ll say their combat is balanced as well.

 

That puts us at 188000 on DoR. Which is rather close to the quesstimate we used.

[simison]

The Xth has very stable gene seed so 80% success rate gives 4000 initial induction.

 

That puts us at 188000 on DoR. Which is rather close to the quesstimate we used.

 

Did you include the Primarch bonus? Because I hit 200k.

[Demus Ragnok]

No I didn’t. Still works for average. We put them at 190000 originally.

[simison]

After running 10 legions through it, I'm mostly satisfied with the system. The only structural changes I'd add is perhaps 5 potential ratings for combat doctrine and recruitment base to further distinguish the legions. 

 

Other than that, this obviously doesn't account for the most brutal campaigns which can undoubtedly cripple a legion.

[MikhalLeNoir]

Totally confused by your math fu^^

[Kelborn]

I tried to follow your calculation but got lost at the impact of the Primarch's discovery.

 

XXth Legion's geneseed is at 70% (average) leading to a size of 3.5K Marines

 

I'd describe their way of recruiting as wide & aggressive (taking recruits from every battlefield they cam across and are rather glory seeking, bloodthirsty, etc.). That'd give them about 650 mpy.

 

Now, Andezo was discovered in 914.M30, which results in 79.550 Marines. If I continue this towards the DoR, the Legion would have a size of 152.100 Marines without the Primarch impact.

 

It would be great, if someone could help me with this.

 

Until now, the Legion would be far larger than I'd imagined them to be. Their previous total number was around 140K, split into 14 tribes. Seems like I have to come up with some new ones. ;)

[bluntblade]

You have the Rangdan Xenocides and knock-on effects from their reputation before that, though.

[Kelborn]

Makes it even more complicated. ^^

[simison]

Totally confused by your math fu^^

 

I thought you might, which is why I did yours. 

 

Based on previous comments, I assumed a base geneseed stability of 90%. However, I then introduced 30% Pariah penalty to represent their strange 'off-on' pariah gene. 

 

The Apostles of War were noted for their aggressive combat style, which slows their growth to the 49k number they could be when Gwal is found.

 

Gwal reforms their legion to be their noblebright selves, which leads to a defensive combat doctrine since the emphasis is on preserving life. He also adds a 5% bonus to geneseed stability.

 

All of this leads to their final count of 118,200 marines.

 

 

 

I tried to follow your calculation but got lost at the impact of the Primarch's discovery.

 

XXth Legion's geneseed is at 70% (average) leading to a size of 3.5K Marines

 

I'd describe their way of recruiting as wide & aggressive (taking recruits from every battlefield they cam across and are rather glory seeking, bloodthirsty, etc.). That'd give them about 650 mpy.

 

Now, Andezo was discovered in 914.M30, which results in 79.550 Marines. If I continue this towards the DoR, the Legion would have a size of 152.100 Marines without the Primarch impact.

 

Yeah, it was simpler before I added in the Primarch Discovery, but, to be fair, that can be a huge deal to a legion.

 

Question, do the Predators have an above-average psyker population?

 

 

You have the Rangdan Xenocides and knock-on effects from their reputation before that, though.

 

Yeah, but I could theoretically account for that through a one-time subtraction or a more punishing combat doctrine.

[Raktra]

I kinda feel like finding the Primarch had a negative effect on the Shepherds/Berserkers.

[simison]

I kinda feel like finding the Primarch had a negative effect on the Shepherds/Berserkers.

 

Potentially. Geneseed stability? Berserker recruiting efforts?