The Lion's Depiction in the Leman Russ Novella

[Chaplain Raeven]

I'm sorry guys but who is AD-B? I'll sread his name in discussions all the time but I can't seem to pin the acronym to am author

 

Aaron Dembski-Bowden

[Kasper_Hawser]

Regardless guys, from what I've read from the OP, there's not much about the Wolves to be proud off, which is sad to me as a Vlka Fenryka fan. The Lion comes out in the end much more competent and even likeable, considering he kept the secret of the Wulfen to himself and commanded his legion to do so. And for all the screw ups mentioned by the 6th Legion, the Lion seem to do his best to diffuse the situation and accomodate his "younger brother". He sounded like he gave every opportunity to the 6th and Russ to reap the glory of the campaign, probably knowing very well that politically, the 6th were down in the dumps.

 

And the Wolves spat and screwed at his concessions, blaming the Angels for their own idiocies that resulted in the Lion having to take matters personally and go cut off the head straight away. Even seem Russ to realize this eventually when he laughed at the absurdity of his brawl.

 

Sigh, well, if anything else, nobody can call Russ irrational and stubborn in this story. Character development wise, it further cements that Russ was never an irrational barbarian who went after his brothers just for the heck of it.

[Saphrael]

The Lion comes out in the end much more competent and even likeable, considering he kept the secret of the Wulfen to himself and commanded his legion to do so.

Dude, spoilers. C'mon.

Unfortunately, Thorpe's stories often move at the expense of his characters. They don't so much do what makes sense for themselves, but what is needed for the plot to get to its next phase.

 

That, more than anything else, in my humble opinion, informs so many things Gav Thorpe has written.

I agree completely that Thorpe's writing suffers the most because of his focus on plot above everything else. If he had great plots with interesting twists that might be forgivable, but he doesn't so it isn't. 

 

I'm hardly a literary critic, so I lack the vocabulary to adequately express my dissatisfaction, but for me it's not just that the characters suffer, but the characterisation. ADB's Night Lords series is dripping with characterisation, metaphor and little details that add atmosphere and depth to the legion. We get phrases like "In Midnight Clad", traditions like the red gauntlets, even some basic Nostraman is provided to add menace to the way the characters speak.

 

Thorpe gives us none of this in any of his writing and we have to get it from other sources (invariably where DA aren't the focus). I've also heard him talk in interviews about deliberately eschewing such detail so as to leave it up to the reader. However I feel his ham-fisted and nonsensical character actions do more to step on readers' toes than any minute detail about how DA adorn their armour or any language they kept from Caliban. I'm aware that this could just be a subjective appreciation of a certain style, and that some may favour plot over characterisation, but I certainly don't.

 

What's worse is that I think DA is one of the chapters/legions with so much to give in terms of characterisation. Secret symbols and traditions, Terran history then assimilation with Calibanite culture, complex internal politics with serious and thought provoking ethical dilemmas. We also have received very little other than some nods to knightly traditions/garments and some Gothic architecture. ADBs short Without Fear is overflowing with new and interesting details about the Ultramarines, where's our love?

 

Anyway, I'm probably coming across as a one-eyed ADB fan-boy here, so I'll stop, but I'm just genuinely passionate about the potential of the Unforgiven and equally frustrated by the failure of most of the writing on them to mine any of that potential.

 

**edit: something weird happened with my quotes**

[Frater Cornelius]

But here comes the kicker. While I have my quarrels with Russ, a bit more than with the Lion, mind you, this read felt more like Russ being the 'cool' guy and Lion the jerk. Maybe the summary portrayed it that way, but still. I know the Lion was cold and socially not very well spoken, but this came across passive-aggressive.

I got it completely the other way around lol. Although Russ is very likable and cool, in my opinion Lion outshines him every time they interact with each other. And I disagree that Lion was socially crippled, it was forced by the earlier lesser authors and never looked convincing or natural enough to me. What about Mortarion, Angron, Curze, Perturabo, Ferrus? Idea that Angron or Mortarion being more sophisticated in interactions with other beings is for me t least laughable. My point of view of course.

Besides in this very book even Russ admits that Lion

"does so well on Terra" which implies politics

.

Also, Phoebus, I love your reviews.

Shall we do a whip around with a bucket to get some money for Chris and/or A D-B so he/they can get writing?

bs

This is a great idea

That's cool. I may have to read the original to get a better picture then ;)

[jlmb_123]

I love the reference to Orfeo! For those who don't know, he's a bard who featured as the narrator in a series of three Warhammer fantasy novels in the late eighties / early nineties (Zaragoz, Plague Daemon and Storm Warriors) which set the tone for Warhammer forever. They're seriously iconic insofar as both Warhammer's and GW's development are concerned. I love that he's made his way into space!

 

If you haven't read the books, do so, they're cracking fantasy and will make you want to play first edition Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay immediately.

[Indefragable]

 

 

But here comes the kicker. While I have my quarrels with Russ, a bit more than with the Lion, mind you, this read felt more like Russ being the 'cool' guy and Lion the jerk. Maybe the summary portrayed it that way, but still. I know the Lion was cold and socially not very well spoken, but this came across passive-aggressive.

I got it completely the other way around lol. Although Russ is very likable and cool, in my opinion Lion outshines him every time they interact with each other. And I disagree that Lion was socially crippled, it was forced by the earlier lesser authors and never looked convincing or natural enough to me. What about Mortarion, Angron, Curze, Perturabo, Ferrus? Idea that Angron or Mortarion being more sophisticated in interactions with other beings is for me t least laughable. My point of view of course.

Besides in this very book even Russ admits that Lion

"does so well on Terra" which implies politics

.

 

 

 

I think the Lion gets labeled "the anti-social one" precisely because he actually has social skills. He's the most anti-social of the social ones, if that makes sense. You never hear that said about Angron, Curze, Morty, etc.... because they're "damaged goods" and so people expect them to be :cuss 's already. 

 

When a poilce dog chases a squirrel, people are disappointed in it. That police dog is meanwhile being like " :cuss ? No one seems to care that all those dumb other dogs keeping chasing squirrels!"   Poor analogy, but the only one I can think of at 08:00am. 

 

It's about expectations, which is a sort of compliment. 

 

Not starting a debate about expectations on El'Jonson: just trying to point out why the anti-social label--fairly or not--gets applied to the Lion, but not to the far worse examples of his brothers. 

[Frater Cornelius]

I know this is off topic, but now I can not get rid of the image of Lion chasing a squirrel up a tree on all fours back on Caliban :D

[Cloud Runner]

Don't hesitate, it is bad; it's the kind of shallow tripe you find in bargain bins after a week. One read and you kind of feel ill at the waste of money.

There are some outstanding writers out there that really manage to convey a sense of superior intelligence and tactical know-how to their super human characters and create complex scenarios that require problem solving and/or ethical dilemmas that can result in decisions with unforeseen circumstances, they often do it without detailing the facts so the internet cannot pull them apart too. They realize that the character development is often more important to the story than achieving the plot and certainly more than doing it at all costs.

Gav just makes characters incompetent to fit his predictable and repeatable plot lines, he has much yet to learn.

I am always so glad when the good writers add the DA to their stories, they hardly ever disappoint. I'll be sure to pick up this book when I get the chance, Wolves or not

Thank you for your input Phoebus.

This. Gav makes his characters look incompetent at best... At worst we are the Keystone Cops of Legions. The Washington Generals..... I dont know a UK reference that sums it up quite right...

For a contemporary comparison, you could think of Boris Jonson and Michael Gove after the referendum result - not a single clue what to do, and looking rather solemn and directionless - much like most of Gav's Dark Angels.....

in fairness to Gav, I did really enjoy Deliverance, I htought he really got a good story in there, with some enjpyable charatcers - it's the book that made me give him a chance again, which sadkly was mired by The Lion and Angels is... well, I've been reading it on and off since June

Gotta say I didn't read lots of the OP as I like to avoid spoilers - but many thanks for the summary and write up, and to all commentators for keeping most things under wraps

Looking forward to picking up this and Wolf King for some more DA tid bits - and the fight of Dulan is the stuff of legends, so it's gotta be read

[rendingon1+]

I think the Lion gets labeled "the anti-social one" precisely because he actually has social skills. He's the most anti-social of the social ones, if that makes sense. You never hear that said about Angron, Curze, Morty, etc.... because they're "damaged goods" and so people expect them to be 's already.

When a poilce dog chases a squirrel, people are disappointed in it. That police dog is meanwhile being like " ? No one seems to care that all those dumb other dogs keeping chasing squirrels!" Poor analogy, but the only one I can think of at 08:00am.

It's about expectations, which is a sort of compliment.

Not starting a debate about expectations on El'Jonson: just trying to point out why the anti-social label--fairly or not--gets applied to the Lion, but not to the far worse examples of his brothers.

Interesting point But how do we judge primarch social skills? And most important thing where are the examples of Lion's poor social behaviour (compared to other primarchs)? And who expects 'better social skills' from the Lion?

Is it worth to open another thread about this?

[Indefragable]

I think the Lion gets labeled "the anti-social one" precisely because he actually has social skills. He's the most anti-social of the social ones, if that makes sense. You never hear that said about Angron, Curze, Morty, etc.... because they're "damaged goods" and so people expect them to be 's already.

When a poilce dog chases a squirrel, people are disappointed in it. That police dog is meanwhile being like " ? No one seems to care that all those dumb other dogs keeping chasing squirrels!" Poor analogy, but the only one I can think of at 08:00am.

It's about expectations, which is a sort of compliment.

Not starting a debate about expectations on El'Jonson: just trying to point out why the anti-social label--fairly or not--gets applied to the Lion, but not to the far worse examples of his brothers.

Interesting point But how do we judge primarch social skills? And most important thing where are the examples of Lion's poor social behaviour (compared to other primarchs)? And who expects 'better social skills' from the Lion?

Is it worth to open another thread about this?

Fan chatter? :)

Ok ok....better analogy:

A: "Team X's defense sucks! They are going to get clobbered in the Super Bowl!"

B: "True, but it was good enough to get them to the Super Bowl!"

The whole "aloof" thing about the Lion comes from the perception (again whether fair or not) that he is not as charismatic or "buddy buddy" with everyone as the likes of Horus, Sanguinius, et al. But that very comparison is a compliment in and of itself. Angron et al. can't be called it because they are so far off no comparison can be made.

Ok ok ok, third analogy:

A: "Joey is the dumbest Sanderson boy. He only got a scholarship to UC Berkeley, unlike his older brothers who each got scholarships to MIT and Stanford."

[Brother dean]

I think the Lion gets labeled "the anti-social one" precisely because he actually has social skills. He's the most anti-social of the social ones, if that makes sense. You never hear that said about Angron, Curze, Morty, etc.... because they're "damaged goods" and so people expect them to be 's already.

When a poilce dog chases a squirrel, people are disappointed in it. That police dog is meanwhile being like " ? No one seems to care that all those dumb other dogs keeping chasing squirrels!" Poor analogy, but the only one I can think of at 08:00am.

It's about expectations, which is a sort of compliment.

Not starting a debate about expectations on El'Jonson: just trying to point out why the anti-social label--fairly or not--gets applied to the Lion, but not to the far worse examples of his brothers.

Interesting point But how do we judge primarch social skills? And most important thing where are the examples of Lion's poor social behaviour (compared to other primarchs)? And who expects 'better social skills' from the Lion?

Is it worth to open another thread about this?

Fan chatter?

Ok ok....better analogy:

A: "Team X's defense sucks! They are going to get clobbered in the Super Bowl!"

B: "True, but it was good enough to get them to the Super Bowl!"

The whole "aloof" thing about the Lion comes from the perception (again whether fair or not) that he is not as charismatic or "buddy buddy" with everyone as the likes of Horus, Sanguinius, et al. But that very comparison is a compliment in and of itself. Angron et al. can't be called it because they are so far off no comparison can be made.

Ok ok ok, third analogy:

A: "Joey is the dumbest Sanderson boy. He only got a scholarship to UC Berkeley, unlike his older brothers who each got scholarships to MIT and Stanford."

And Angron got a Football scholarship to Nebraska... (reviews all the felony convictions of the Huskers alumni)

[Indefragable]

 

And Angron got a Football scholarship to Nebraska...  (reviews all the felony convictions of the Huskers alumni)

 

 

 

"Greg Hardy never gets accused of being a bad leader on the team!"

[Interrogator Stobz]

I cannot believe that load of waffle was nearly on topic; keep it clear guys, this one's about the Lion and Russ story, feel free to discuss the other stuff in detail in a new thread.

 

:D

[DarKnight]

Liked this book much more than I expected to. Not much insight on the Legion, but it wasn't our book anyway, and there's less to be contradicted later. The only thing that made me squint is when Russ is talking to Bloodhowl (the deed names are so 40K corny) and explaining how the VI is unpopular on Terra and how the Lion is politicking against them for preeminence. Now the Lion is ambitious due to his belief that he was the Emperor's intended Warmaster, and arrogant due to his Legion being the First. But the idea of the Lion essentially tattleing and gossiping about other Legions to Malcador is not something I think he would do. He's a loner by nature, why would he be on Terra blabbing when the Crusade was still ongoing? I'm just gonna have to chalk that up to it being from Russ' perspective/opinion. Also in a move we could see from a mile away, the Dulan expose the Wulfen curse to the Angels and the rest of the two Legions. Why would they though? They aren't a part of the Imperium and don't know these are even supposed to be a secret, plus their population is already being butchered by thousands of perfectly healthy Astartes, one Wulfen is going to be something to broadcast?

[Frater Cornelius]

Slander is not something I see the Lion do. What reason did he have? Wasn't there a part where a big Daemon of Tzeentch had nothing to offer the Lion, seeing as he never wanted anything for himself? That :cuss right here, that is inspiring. I do not see slander entering the picture any time soon.

[rendingon1+]

Liked this book much more than I expected to. Not much insight on the Legion, but it wasn't our book anyway, and there's less to be contradicted later. The only thing that made me squint is when Russ is talking to Bloodhowl (the deed names are so 40K corny) and explaining how the VI is unpopular on Terra and how the Lion is politicking against them for preeminence. Now the Lion is ambitious due to his belief that he was the Emperor's intended Warmaster, and arrogant due to his Legion being the First. But the idea of the Lion essentially tattleing and gossiping about other Legions to Malcador is not something I think he would do. He's a loner by nature, why would he be on Terra blabbing when the Crusade was still ongoing? I'm just gonna have to chalk that up to it being from Russ' perspective/opinion. Also in a move we could see from a mile away, the Dulan expose the Wulfen curse to the Angels and the rest of the two Legions. Why would they though? They aren't a part of the Imperium and don't know these are even supposed to be a secret, plus their population is already being butchered by thousands of perfectly healthy Astartes, one Wulfen is going to be something to broadcast?

I was under impression that Lion is somehow "popular/succesful" on Terra because he's reliable, has one of the highest worlds brought to compliance tally and well, has a style; not that he's plotting against other Legions.  Why did you come to that conclusion? Also look at the last sentance:

http://www.spikeybits.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/WWHH_SWLegion-1.jpg

 

"For, unlike their brother Legions, the Space Wolves were kept under the tight control of the Imperil Court...."

Reasons? Not known yet, let us wait for Inferno. But nevertheless it implies that VI legion was in need of control/observation(?).

 

This "wulfen broadcast" was planet/system (can't remember) wide on all frequencices. It was aimed at dulanians to make them fight harder but no wonder Imperium forces seen it too. 

[DarKnight]

I remember reading Russ telling Bloodhowl the Lion was disparaging the VI Legion specifically to the Sigillite in the manner they prosecuted the GC, and requested the worlds they were assigned to bring into compliance. That seems much more like something Guilliman would do. Not that he doesn't look down on the VI, but essentially "tattling" just does not seem like him IMO  

[rendingon1+]

I read it at the moment and still can't find it. There is a fragment when Russ is talking with Bloodhowl telling him that, wolves are not well liked on Terra and Court wanted them to be called off. He goes to Malcador to tell him that he "will be cutting the Tyrants throat" because that's what HE was ordered but Malcador claims that "astropathic choirs had been mobilised" and "the fleets were moving" already. So in short, the Court didn't like VI's progress and were in a process of calling them off and sending the 1st instead. 

[Phoebus]

I've read those parts several time, and I don't think it's even implied that Russ thinks the Lion has been politicking against him. He makes it rather clear that the Lion's persona and his roll of conquests makes him very popular in Terra, whereas the Space Wolves are not.

[Brother dean]

And Russ admits later on that the reasons are more related to the method of compliance that each legion uses..  Dark Angels topple the power structure and install a compliant governor and if the Wolves have to pull weapons it turns into more or less a planetwide exterminatus.

[DarKnight]

I read it at the moment and still can't find it. There is a fragment when Russ is talking with Bloodhowl telling him that, wolves are not well liked on Terra and Court wanted them to be called off. He goes to Malcador to tell him that he "will be cutting the Tyrants throat" because that's what HE was ordered but Malcador claims that "astropathic choirs had been mobilised" and "the fleets were moving" already. So in short, the Court didn't like VI's progress and were in a process of calling them off and sending the 1st instead. 

Yeah, upon another read through the Lion isn't an active participant in any disparaging remarks against Russ, and is just regarded as a much of reliable and convenient option for the Dulan Crusade. Apologies to the Lion and his Legion.

[Master Ciaphas]

I finished the book earlier this week, and though it is written for the Space Wolves and their Primarch, I find that it does justice to the First Legion as well. Amongst the various portrayals of the Lion in BL fiction, him having been (mis)handled by Gav Thorpe for years, and having also been described by Mike Lee, Mitchell Scanlon, Dan Abnett, ADB and now Chris Wraight, I would say that Wraight and ADB are tied in first-place for best presentations of the Lion, Abnett in second, Lee and Scanlon in third, various fan fiction authors, and then Gav Thorpe in the 100th spot or such...

 

Overall, this is great book, and it plays to the strengths of both Legions. The Great Wulf even admits that he was wrong about the Lion, and the Lion did right. He does go out of his way to allow Leman the chance to finish the siege of Dulan, and only intervenes when not doing so, would result in the likely loss of a full Chapter, who would be blocking the path for a planet´s worth of mech´ed-up Dulanians coming to break the siege...

 

Regards,

Master Ciaphas