Gathering Storm

[veterannoob]

Aww, dammit, N&R section bleeding into this excellent section of B&C. shooo!

[b1soul]

I like the basic concept...

 

 

 

 

Eldar and Mechanicum manage to revive Guilliman as the 13th Black Crusade rears its ugly head

 

Guilimand and co. battle Chaos forces then embark on a perilous Warp journey to reach Terra, encountering Daemonic foes plotting against them...they escape with Cypher's help

 

To avoid using the Palace Webway gate, they disembark on Luna, battle Magnus, before finally making it to the Emperor's Throne

 

 

This all has the potential to be written well...but it's simply rushed.

 

As a result, the story feels like it's bursting at the seams with too many popular factions

[Petitioner's City]

If this is a discussion of the fluff of the three books, purely, in lieu of a novel that may never happen (thank god), then ... The fluff is pretty bad! I think - as I've written elsewhere here - scale is my major issue with studio writing, and GS's scale was utterly miniature, utterly astoundingly tiny. These tiny casts of 'heroes' and a few 'villains', and little sense of anything other than waves of redshirts, furthermore engaged in actions given no sense of time. The actions in GS1-3 don't feel like less than a year's time - doesn't it take months even to go through the webway (like in Talon) in the eye - wouldn't it take longer to cross the whole 'southern' Imperium?

[hopkins]

Narrative has to sell the new models, that's why they're front and center

[Felix Antipodes]

I've always looked on the narrative in the studio books as shorthand. As Hopkins said, their main job is to sell models, with characterization and setting a distant second. I rely on BL and/or FW books to then properly flesh out that shorthand into a more satisfying reading experience. I found a lot of potentially interesting story ideas in the GS trilogy that I hope to see expanded on in future novels - emperor knows they glossed over a lot. ;-)

[HeritorA]

I like the basic concept...

Eldar and Mechanicum manage to revive Guilliman as the 13th Black Crusade rears its ugly head

Guilimand and co. battle Chaos forces then embark on a perilous Warp journey to reach Terra, encountering Daemonic foes plotting against them...they escape with Cypher's help

To avoid using the Palace Webway gate, they disembark on Luna, battle Magnus, before finally making it to the Emperor's Throne

This all has the potential to be written well...but it's simply rushed.

As a result, the story feels like it's bursting at the seams with too many popular factions

Let be honest - Gathering Storm is an abomination lore-wise, story-wise and any logic-wise.

And if Fall of Cadia you could forgive (and close eyes on some gross inconsistencies) - the last book is simply went to far. And that does not even cover the rusheness/childisness and plain 'stupidness' of the story.

1) Roboute and his chapter with dozens of capital ships? Ultramarines found and indefinite STC example to multiply battlebarges and strike cruisers?

Macragges Honour is exactly the 'Macragges Honour' from HH (Gloriana class flagship) that appeared right from the blue!

2) Guilliman while fighting on Macragge and on the Road to Terra killed thousands of CSM (guys since then CSM has hundreds of thousands of SM????) Red Corsairs at just one planet and place of time has thousand CSM? RED CORSAIRS? Dozens of ship? RED CORSAIRS? The one that always suffer from slow ranks and looking for the new ships to capture?

3) Abaddon gifted Blackstone fortress to Huron? Are you for real? GW - are you mad? Whose writing your fluff nowdays?

4) Kairos 'CAPTURING' Guilliman instead of killing him? Red Corsairs capturing Space Marines - and puting all their armour, weapons, dreads into 1 place? Not collaring the Grey Knights? Not depowering SM power armour? Do not removing weapons from Dreadnoughts? WHAT?

And continuation of how .... GS is:

5) Cypher being a instead of mysterious stranger he should be? Voidweaver again????

6) Magnus being a evil just for being an evil ? Sisters of Silence disbanded and dead since M32K arrived just out of BLUE?

I can't take W40K seriously anymore- grimdark? What grimdark - it's all hope and shining Primarch and stabing lights of bright future nowdays?

What happened to fluff authors? They still live - or they were taken and copied by Fabius clones?

It's like they took everything that were in W40K and simply put it into 1 cauldron without any logistical and logic explanation...

veterannoob

we need a podcast to declare W40K dead and start a :cussing revolution! For GW to hire proffesional loremasters/writers/ People WHO KNOWS THE FETHING STUFF AND HOW TO WRITE A STORY!

All in all - that's of s story. GS does not need or deserve a novellization.

[hopkins]

wow, just wow

[HeritorA]

It is simply that. Just I haven't read more abyssmal book in W40K in all my 20 years life with the setting.

[fluxdeluxe]

It is simply that. Just :cuss I haven't read more abyssmal book in W40K in all my 20 years life with the setting.

It's really not that bad I'm sure there will be a whole host of books which flesh all this stuff out. The codex/supplement fluff has always been iffy.

 

There's a 10 book series in those first three books at least.

 

People just need to chill out this is clearly the start of a period of changes, I'm reserving judgement until we are at least a year in

[Dagoth Ur]

Good grief HeritorA,

 

1.)The CSM had hundreds of thousands of CSM since at least the last codex. Heck, the black legion is described as numbering that high alone.

2.)Yes indeed its the Red Corsairs with that many ships and that form of piracy manouvers (Since, y'know, that's their whole shtick). Even ADB's Bloodreaver novel presents the Red Corsairs as a fearsome and large reaving force equipped with battleships from all millenia. The Red Corsairs have been described as a very efficient warband since at least two codexes ago. How do you think have they become the supreme power in the Maelstrom?

3.)Abbadon gifting Huron a Blackstone Fortress is certainly weird but nowhere near mad. It's called wartime politics. Besides, Abbadon has several of them and even a Gloriana Class battleship at his disposal. He keeps a rival close at his side where he can observe him and use his aid, for the time being that is. ADB's Bloodreaver, again, shows us that Huron is not above turning a blind eye to his old grudges if it helps him in the long run.

4.)The book explains why Guillaume isn't killed, it is because he might prove as a powerful asset for Kairos sorcery (Ain't many primarchs waddling around for the taking atm). Obviously it is rife with Deus Ex Machinas but since when hasn't the setting been? Are you seriously going to tell me that 2nd was a pinnacle of realistic warstories with no plotarmour or Deus Ex Machinas what so ever?

5.)Where exactly is Cypher acting against his estabilished character? His end goal has always been Terra! We don't know why but since his inception as a character, Cypher wanted to find a way towards Terra. Obviously he is going to step more into the light when such a chance is offered.

6.)Magnus is a character defined by hubris. He is a daemon primarch. What do you exactly expect him to be? He is the stuff of the warp, nothing in the realspace ultimately matters to him as he is part of the Big Game now. Unless Tzeentch is destroyed, Magnus will outlive anything else in the setting.

Grimdark is inherently defined by a spark of hope amidst overwhelming darkness. The Eldar had Rhana Dhandra and Ynnead, the Orks dont actually live in a grimdark existence, the Necrons try and return to flesh, Mankind hopes for the return of a leader or the end of stagnation. Did you even read the book? No way in the warp is it all shiny and dandy. Hell, Guillaume is dismayed with what the Ultramarines, his own ilk, have become. He is disgusted by the Imperium. He is forced to accept the Ecclesiarchy because he needs allies and can't wage a war against them too.

You do raise good points, what with the battlefleet of the Ultramarines and the sisters of silence, but my god if you don't raise a buhurt around "issues" that have beem resolved in previous fluff already. I'm not a fan of everything Gathering Storm gave us but it certainly isn't the fluffmurder and doomsday that people make it out to be.

It certainly isn't Supplement:Clan Raukaan or C.S.Goto tier of hellishnes and retconning.

[HeritorA]

Good grief HeritorA,

 

1.)The CSM had hundreds of thousands of CSM since at least the last codex. Heck, the black legion is described as numbering that high alone.

2.)Yes indeed its the Red Corsairs with that many ships and that form of piracy manouvers (Since, y'know, that's their whole shtick). Even ADB's Bloodreaver novel presents the Red Corsairs as a fearsome and large reaving force equipped with battleships from all millenia. The Red Corsairs have been described as a very efficient warband since at least two codexes ago. How do you think have they become the supreme power in the Maelstrom?

3.)Abbadon gifting Huron a Blackstone Fortress is certainly weird but nowhere near mad. It's called wartime politics. Besides, Abbadon has several of them and even a Gloriana Class battleship at his disposal. He keeps a rival close at his side where he can observe him and use his aid, for the time being that is. ADB's Bloodreaver, again, shows us that Huron is not above turning a blind eye to his old grudges if it helps him in the long run.

4.)The book explains why Guillaume isn't killed, it is because he might prove as a powerful asset for Kairos sorcery (Ain't many primarchs waddling around for the taking atm). Obviously it is rife with Deus Ex Machinas but since when hasn't the setting been? Are you seriously going to tell me that 2nd was a pinnacle of realistic warstories with no plotarmour or Deus Ex Machinas what so ever?

5.)Where exactly is Cypher acting against his estabilished character? His end goal has always been Terra! We don't know why but since his inception as a character, Cypher wanted to find a way towards Terra. Obviously he is going to step more into the light when such a chance is offered.

6.)Magnus is a character defined by hubris. He is a daemon primarch. What do you exactly expect him to be? He is the stuff of the warp, nothing in the realspace ultimately matters to him as he is part of the Big Game now. Unless Tzeentch is destroyed, Magnus will outlive anything else in the setting.

Grimdark is inherently defined by a spark of hope amidst overwhelming darkness. The Eldar had Rhana Dhandra and Ynnead, the Orks dont actually live in a grimdark existence, the Necrons try and return to flesh, Mankind hopes for the return of a leader or the end of stagnation. Did you even read the book? No way in the warp is it all shiny and dandy. Hell, Guillaume is dismayed with what the Ultramarines, his own ilk, have become. He is disgusted by the Imperium. He is forced to accept the Ecclesiarchy because he needs allies and can't wage a war against them too.

You do raise good points, what with the battlefleet of the Ultramarines and the sisters of silence, but my god if you don't raise a buhurt around "issues" that have beem resolved in previous fluff already. I'm not a fan of everything Gathering Storm gave us but it certainly isn't the fluffmurder and doomsday that people make it out to be.

It certainly isn't Supplement:Clan Raukaan or C.S.Goto tier of hellishnes and retconning.

You forget the 'prose' in which it's all written. I do understand that BL team is a separate entity from GW publication team. But that... Really - at some points of 'story' it's truly believable that it was written by a 10-year old kid, instead of a codex/fluff/lore/background proffesional  grown-up human being.

And to be honest, in my humble opinion -  in the last 12 months BL and GW stuff from 'grimdark' totally converted into PG13-16 range.

 

As for the numbers it seems CSM has a consistent and zealous recruitment/indocrination program. Through they lost dozens of thousands CSM during just a several months period they are always more than 100k. It would be good in some 'future' book to have that point addressed directly. And not by some miraculous shenangians from the hat - but logic and believable explanation.

As for resources. We had a lot of BL books where Red Corsairs explained never to have a big fleet of capital ships (cause losses and small resource base). Here we have to quote directly 'thousands of Red Corsairs' in one place under the leadership of some backwater warlord (not even Huron).

Plus the losses of BL at Cadia - dozens of capital ships (Slaughter, Devastation, Carnage, Hades, Styx, Acheron class) destroyed by Imperials, orbital defense, Phalanx, Cadia/BL fortress destruction. It's like from the point of lore that we have for Battlefleet Gothic and closing years of M40k, they doubled and trippled the range of capital ships for CSM. fROM WHERE? Because it's needed for new 'lore'?

 

'around "issues" that have beem resolved in previous fluff already.' - exactly where, if you don't mind me asking?

Yes - GOTO level never can be beaten for sure. But as for 'It certainly isn't Supplement:Clan Raukaan' - nope, it is much worse than Clan Raukaan

[Dagoth Ur]

You forget the 'prose' in which it's all written. I do understand that BL team is a separate entity from GW publication team. But that... Really - at some points of 'story' it's truly believable that it was written by a 10-year old kid, instead of a codex/fluff/lore/background proffesional  grown-up human being.

And to be honest, in my humble opinion -  in the last 12 months BL and GW stuff from 'grimdark' totally converted into PG13-16 range.

 

As for the numbers it seems CSM has a consistent and zealous recruitment/indocrination program. Through they lost dozens of thousands CSM during just a several months period they are always more than 100k. It would be good in some 'future' book to have that point addressed directly. And not by some miraculous shenangians from the hat - but logic and believable explanation.

As for resources. We had a lot of BL books where Red Corsairs explained never to have a big fleet of capital ships (cause losses and small resource base). Here we have to quote directly 'thousands of Red Corsairs' in one place under the leadership of some backwater warlord (not even Huron).

Plus the losses of BL at Cadia - dozens of capital ships (Slaughter, Devastation, Carnage, Hades, Styx, Acheron class) destroyed by Imperials, orbital defense, Phalanx, Cadia/BL fortress destruction. It's like from the point of lore that we have for Battlefleet Gothic and closing years of M40k, they doubled and trippled the range of capital ships for CSM. fROM WHERE? Because it's needed for new 'lore'?

 

'around "issues" that have beem resolved in previous fluff already.' - exactly where, if you don't mind me asking?

 

Yes - GOTO level never can be beaten for sure. But as for 'It certainly isn't Supplement:Clan Raukaan' - nope, it is much worse than Clan Raukaan

 

Alright, the numbers of at least the Black Legion have been explained in the current CSM codex. It is mentioned that, apparently, the Black Legion has swollen to a size just as large, if not larger, than the Legions of the Great Crusade (I will sift out an exact quote as soon as I get back home from University). I am also tempted to say that both Talon of Horus and the Night Lords Trilogy make allusions to the BL's size, but I'll double check on that one. I know that the Dark Creed novel, written by Anthony Reynolds, states that the Black Legion has ten times the numbers of the current Word Bearers legion, although the book is a bit old by now, so there's that.

The way the Red Corsairs operate and their size: Current CSM Codex as well, as I have mentioned, Blood Reaver by ADB. Both the Corsairs and the Black Legion are not foreign to the idea of assimilating other warbands in order to grow, so this too factors into their size. There are vastly more than 100k CSM given at any time, considering how unified and organized some seem to appear (Such as the Black Legion, Word Bearers and the Iron Warriors) and how they raid and pillage gene stocks (Again, Blood Reaver). Over time, as ADB's novel implies, the Corsairs apparently managed to amass quite a formidable fleet and as pirates, it is no wonder that they'd try to capture and repurpose as many vessels as possible.

The recruiting is explained both in the current codex and some novels. We know that some enlist the services of Fabius Bile (Codex), some implant the traditional way (ADB's Night Lords trilogy shows both Red Corsairs and Night Lords doing this), some create monstrous half breeds (The Daemonculaba in Dead Sky/Black Sun by Graham McNeill) and that many of them absorb other warbands (Codex, ADB, Graham McNeill). This is as logical and believable as it gets in this setting!

You ask for logic and reasonability while simultaneously bemoaning that Huron himself was not present during the given engagement but some "backwater" warlord (I will check back on that description, as it is definitely not what I remember). This is exactly what a capable warlord does, he delegates in order to turn his attention to more pressing matters. Hell, we don't even know the big picture of Huron's game. Maybe there is quite a valid reason that he does not lead the assault himself (Apart from fear for life that is), but oh no, it surely must be incompetence. The dude who went from a complete nill to one of the big players in the Maelstrom in a matter of 80-odd years must surely be incompetent.

The losses of the BL at Cadia are easily explained with the mere fact that we simply do not know how big their assets are. Abbadon holds a gloriana class battleship, several blackstone fortresses and possibly hundreds of thousands of Astartes. When it comes to chaos, his assets are probably nigh limitless. CSM have been raiding and pillaging the Imperium for millenia, they have demon forges and the Dark Mechanicum isn't exactly small or incompetent either. Why wouldn't they have large amounts of ships when they both steal and produce them?

Furthermore, the unrealistically small numbers have always been a sour point of the community and now that this has been changed, people are in uproar again? It is no wonder GW does not appear to listen to its fans sometimes and on some days, such as these past few weeks, I laud them for it.

Gathering Storm cannot even hope to be as bad as Raukaan. Raukaan rewrote completely how the Iron Hands functioned, added the Sapphire King and basically commited exterminatus on most of the Iron Hands fluff.

[Xisor]

I'm inclined to say I've got problems too - just like HeritorA.

 

That said, much like Graham McNeill's Heresy work - I approve of what he's ostensibly trying to do, even if I gripe about how it's done.

 

For example:

 

- Victrix Formation: it's Cato, Honour Guard and Sternguard. No mention of the 'fate' of the 2nd Company with their Captain serving as part of a different unit.

- the Fallen. I'm sure they were variously forgotten at a lot of points.

- People who can see the future getting sucker-punched. Using Kairos, Magnus, Ahriman and folks in 'this way' makes them out to be terrible, not magnificent, fools. It's like having Guilliman be defeated because he forgot about logistics.

- Magnus casting spells at the Sisters of Silence as if this time it might just work because why not.

 

You get the idea. This happened "just so", which, on a vague inspection, doesn't really amount to much.

 

Where was Titan's GK and Terra's Inquisition forces when two Primarchs popped out onto the Lunar surface?

 

If you can't anticipate something blatant like that, what's the bloody point?

 

Similarly, there's lots of odd 'forgotten' aspects of the story that just seem anticipate bit... daft. The alienation between St Celestine & =][= of Trazyn's, for example. Either Kataryna is an Inquisitor of monumental will and unlimited paranoia, or she isn't. Don't make a song and dance of one thing just to undo it with "the power of love" turgidity. Give them some agency, or detail, not simple A to B to Canterbury tedium. (Or make the simplicity interesting.)

 

 

 

Having said all that, there were pieces in the books that I'm quite enchanted by. Someone writing them is exceedingly fond of (and quite good at) doing visionary travelogoues - the exodus from Cadia, Biel-Tan, the Webway, the journey within the Maelstrom, the walk on Terra - they were all really nicely done, vivid scenes that absolutely and evocatively bring the bleak period they're depicting to vibrant (and also decaying) life.

 

The upside of it all, I suppose is as others have saod: there's nothing categorically unsalvageable here, nothing that can't with a bit of a twist and some skill be turned into something fascinating and genuinely meaningful. Interesting raw material for the hobby, I suppose - which is probably the best cost:benefit we can expect for the time being.

 

They're not gleefully tearing apart a work of incredible art as per the End Times, so that's nice. :)

 

But, at present, it's still mostly a considerable a amount of 'just so'. I'll be keen to see what BL and FW do with it.

[HeritorA]

I'm inclined to say I've got problems too - just like HeritorA.

That said, much like Graham McNeill's Heresy work - I approve of what he's ostensibly trying to do, even if I gripe about how it's done.

For example:

- Victrix Formation: it's Cato, Honour Guard and Sternguard. No mention of the 'fate' of the 2nd Company with their Captain serving as part of a different unit.

- the Fallen. I'm sure they were variously forgotten at a lot of points.

- People who can see the future getting sucker-punched. Using Kairos, Magnus, Ahriman and folks in 'this way' makes them out to be terrible, not magnificent, fools. It's like having Guilliman be defeated because he forgot about logistics.

- Magnus casting spells at the Sisters of Silence as if this time it might just work because why not.

You get the idea. This happened "just so", which, on a vague inspection, doesn't really amount to much.

Where was Titan's GK and Terra's Inquisition forces when two Primarchs popped out onto the Lunar surface?

If you can't anticipate something blatant like that, what's the bloody point?

Similarly, there's lots of odd 'forgotten' aspects of the story that just seem anticipate bit... daft. The alienation between St Celestine & =][= of Trazyn's, for example. Either Kataryna is an Inquisitor of monumental will and unlimited paranoia, or she isn't. Don't make a song and dance of one thing just to undo it with "the power of love" turgidity. Give them some agency, or detail, not simple A to B to Canterbury tedium. (Or make the simplicity interesting.)

Having said all that, there were pieces in the books that I'm quite enchanted by. Someone writing them is exceedingly fond of (and quite good at) doing visionary travelogoues - the exodus from Cadia, Biel-Tan, the Webway, the journey within the Maelstrom, the walk on Terra - they were all really nicely done, vivid scenes that absolutely and evocatively bring the bleak period they're depicting to vibrant (and also decaying) life.

The upside of it all, I suppose is as others have saod: there's nothing categorically unsalvageable here, nothing that can't with a bit of a twist and some skill be turned into something fascinating and genuinely meaningful. Interesting raw material for the hobby, I suppose - which is probably the best cost:benefit we can expect for the time being.

They're not gleefully tearing apart a work of incredible art as per the End Times, so that's nice.

But, at present, it's still mostly a considerable a amount of 'just so'. I'll be keen to see what BL and FW do with it.

You added and explained it better - ty Xisor. Almost totally agree with you. Yes - they can fix the story - probably if they would give it to Bligh + ADB + Haley to fix.

Or if they try to make it at least a little bit 'more' logical.

[Mellow]

At least Guilliman went and spoke to The Emperor. That must have been a good "mind chat"

 

"Father, what has happened to your Imperium"

 

"Don't ask boy, just don't ask. Plus have you not seen my mortal shell? It's ruined! Can't regen because of the Throne. Can you ask someone to turn it off so I can re-roll?"

 

"I'm not sure they will let that happen dad"

 

"Get out boy, you disappoint me ... and close the door on the way out"

[HeritorA]

At least Guilliman went and spoke to The Emperor. That must have been a good "mind chat"

 

"Father, what has happened to your Imperium"

 

"Don't ask boy, just don't ask. Plus have you not seen my mortal shell? It's ruined! Can't regen because of the Throne. Can you ask someone to turn it off so I can re-roll?"

 

"I'm not sure they will let that happen dad"

 

"Get out boy, you disappoint me ... and close the door on the way out"

Let's continue - Roboute after he exits the Throne room. Drama for 1 person:

 

'What did the Emperor said everyone asks'

 

'It's time for the NEW Crusade!' - said Roboute.

 

Curtain falls :)

[Sete]

I borrowed the last book and read it.

Had to make several breaks, because of the nonsense and the sheer Ultramarine "fanboyism" going around.

 

 

What annoyed me the most was the fact that on GS1, BT are represented as stubborn making bad calls, SW are awesome as always but falling to the curse in droves, DA actually had a small but balanced display.

 

You read the last book, my good. Super disciplined, proud but humble, [not like hot headed space wolves and extremely logical IH!]

This is written there.

And amazing discipline and skill at whatever they do.

Also BT were the only ones kneeling to Calgar.

Because he was a Hero of the Imperium.

[Mellow]

Don't worry. Any actual novels won't be written for some time. The authors will need time to digest the events and put their own spin on some events.

 

No one will cover the throne room conversation. It's not the way 40k works. Not since inquisition war. Besides. "Son" or not. The Custodes wouldn't let someone in completely on their own with escort.

 

No.

 

Just no. They failed to protect him once. It's not going to happen a second time.

[Xisor]

Don't worry. Any actual novels won't be written for some time. The authors will need time to digest the events and put their own spin on some events.

No one will cover the throne room conversation. It's not the way 40k works. Not since inquisition war. Besides. "Son" or not. The Custodes wouldn't let someone in completely on their own with escort.

No.

Just no. They failed to protect him once. It's not going to happen a second time.

 

Only Guilliman went through the door. Nothing to say there weren't Custodes already on the other side.

 

Similarly, it's entirely possible that Guilliman took a long hard look at the reality of the Throne and the Immortal God-Emperor of Mankind; the conversation could have been *very* one-sided. Similarly, there might have been Ad Mech behind the door.

 

Better, this could all be a Thorian-Mechanicus schismatic thing - Guilliman after that door might be a very different Guilliman to the one who went into the status pod in the first place. As might the Guilliman who died to be resurrected by Ynnead.

 

 

There's a lot of room for... mischief.

[Sete]

Fulgrim has officially 2 primarch kills.

[Roomsky]

Warning, strong opinions follow:

 

"In the grim darkness of the far future, there is only war."

 

I don't care how perturbed Guilliman is that the Imperium has gone to :cusse, his mere presence is far too hopeful for this setting. Guilliman was in stasis because it was a fate worse than death, the "man" who held the Imperium together after the heresy perpetually moments from death, and used as a monument to everything he fought to avoid. It's soul-crushingly dark and is now entirely undermined by his return. 

 

There's nothing wrong with a bright and colourful and hopeful setting with a bit of edge to it, but that setting is not 40k. It is the time of ending, if the Imperium does not fall to Chaos, it will fall to Orks, and if not Orks Nekrons, and if not Nekrons Tau, and if not Tau Tyranids. The Imperium could live on if it were unified, but it has mired itself in so much politiking and ignorance that such a unity is impossible now. It can only bare its teeth and do as much damage as it can as its brought low before the new powers of the galaxy. There is no hope. Humanity was doomed the moment Magnus blew a hole in the webway.

 

And what's worse, they chose Guilliman, for no other reason I can deduce other than Ultramarine drivel. I have a great deal of difficulty believing a similar solution has not been found over the course of the 9000 years leading up to this. Again, fate worse than death. This is made more frustrating by the fact that, if you must bring back a primarch, the Lion is alive! He's fine, just asleep! Imagine someone as self-righteous as the Lion returning to see what the Imperium has become, what great schisms would occur between those loyal to him, and those he refused to tolerate. 

 

I love the heresy, but it has consumed a setting it should never have had any great part in. The Loyalist primarchs are dead. The traitor primarchs are unconcerned with what the galaxy has or will become. It is the sons now, waging wars in the names of their uncaring or long-dead fathers. The feud has outlasted its progenitors for 10,000 years. It is depressing and tragic and entirely 40k. And Gathering Storm just fails to capture that.

[Mellow]

The Lion would be a good one to come back. He would be plotting and scheming till the cows come home. Tzeentch would be impressed! The best thing about the Lion is I feel he can't be corrupted ... well, I feel he's more interested in his own plans than chaos so it's quite tough for chaos to do.

 

I do think the Lion will be probably skeletal though. He hasn't eaten in thousand of years. How's he expected to stand up? Or is Primarch DNA capable of not wasting away muscle through inactivity.

[Xisor]

Slight cross posting from the AM forum, but relevant here too:

So, some new stuff from Rise of the Primarch.

 

Foremost: he has indeed been working since the days before Guilliman fought Fulgrim, albeit on (at least) a suit of life-support/renewing armour.

Secondly: without the input of the Ynnari and the Ynnead, it is intimated that the armour would not be efficacious.

Thirdly: There was another senior Techpriest waiting at the door to the Golden Throne Room who was conversant with Carl.

Four: Guilliman seems to be tasking Carl (and his pal, Archmagos Lenny?) with finishing the development of a host of superweapons and wacky new things.

Five: No mention of what's going on in the Throne Room - is the Golden Throne in good order?

Six: A lot of techpriests invaded the site of the Lunar Webway Gate in the aftermath on the moon.

 

 

So. So!

There's quite a lot of unorthodoxness going on here. Given everything in the Ad Mech lore of late, I'm curious: how heavily can we press for Carl to be declared a heretek? What sort of schism(s) will follow?

Personally, my theory is something as follows. Perhaps invest in copious tinfoil cranial augmetics.

There's a lot of Thorianism on the go here. I think the Throne *has* failed, either by bwing allowed to or as an experiment. I think a lot of this was to distract the Ruinous Powers from the Throne. See Magnus on the moon. I think Carl is in on it. I think Guilliman's armour was a sort of cannibal technopsychic Frankenstein suit that is hijacking both a fragment of the Emperor's Soul (and Guilliman) and trying to reincarnate him wholesale. I think Ynnead and the Star Child/God-Emperor are sort of the same thing, or at risk of merging. I think it's a conspiracy where the Astronomican and the Golden Throne are things in the self, powered independently (by Ynnari-like means of psy-soul cannibalism) of what was the Emperor.

I think it would be really interesting if a lot of schisms happen.

I think Guilliman, in the Throne Room, saw that the Throne was ultimately empty. I think a spark of recognition would be there: he saw the truth of what he was, that he's a weird psy-imprint of the Emperor and some other factors who also happens to be the genuine legacy of Guilliman, but also something quite different too. I think Guilliman, in doing so, realises there's opportunity in that, but also danger: it's not longer in his, or His, control. The faith of the Imperium is runaway from him and from Him.

I think Carl and the rest of the Cult Mechanicus might not be entirely on the same page. I think the Machine Gods might even be getting beyond Mars' total dominion of control too...

 

I think it's quite interesting. Or at least I really hope it is. It's not especially different from what was before either, which I think is why I'm so content leaping immediately into hare-brained speculation.

I'll go further than all of that. My reading between the lines is that this is a great big double edged (marketing) sword.

 

In one direction, Guilliman offers hope for that bit of the consumer base who don't want any nuance, or struggle when it's too Grim Dark or a number of other, not too dissimilar desires. It's to offer them an 'angle' that isn't simply them wishful thinking - it's a genuine reading of the lore available and on sale.

 

In the other direction, you've got a mad variety of things with the appearance of "going right" but which are tantamount to an absolute nightmare. Just prior to Vulkan's disappearance, you had unbridled military disasters of unprecedented scale. You had doors left open to the dark days of the Horus Heresy. Having Astartes or Primarchs as High Lords of Terra were close to direct contravention of the Emperor's intentions for the Imperium.

 

We have Chaos released galaxy wide.

 

We have the Golden Throne on the brink of failure.

 

With warp storms everywhere, how are new navigators and astropaths going to get through from Terra? How will Black Ships get back to Terra?

 

Chaos, Necrons, Orks and Tyranids have close to free run of the Imperium.

 

 

There are Genestealers on Terra as per TGS 2

 

 

Mars is about as ready as possible to make a move for secession, especially if the Fabricator General was to take issue with Roboute's special relationship with Carl.

 

As per the end of Valedor and the start of TGS2:

The two hive fleets have merged in Commorragh - The Doom is still to come.

 

 

I think GW are just covering their bases; allowing for multiple focuses to be obtained without drawing direct attention to the 'inner core' - rather leaving you to discover that unique horror on your own.

---

 

Of course, the writing was still a nuisance, but maybe that's because the people writing it weren't at all comfortable writing the 'positive spin' - without making it seem silly?

[mc warhammer]

Warning, strong opinions follow:

 

"In the grim darkness of the far future, there is only war."

 

I don't care how perturbed Guilliman is that the Imperium has gone to :cusse, his mere presence is far too hopeful for this setting. Guilliman was in stasis because it was a fate worse than death, the "man" who held the Imperium together after the heresy perpetually moments from death, and used as a monument to everything he fought to avoid. It's soul-crushingly dark and is now entirely undermined by his return. 

 

There's nothing wrong with a bright and colourful and hopeful setting with a bit of edge to it, but that setting is not 40k. It is the time of ending, if the Imperium does not fall to Chaos, it will fall to Orks, and if not Orks Nekrons, and if not Nekrons Tau, and if not Tau Tyranids. The Imperium could live on if it were unified, but it has mired itself in so much politiking and ignorance that such a unity is impossible now. It can only bare its teeth and do as much damage as it can as its brought low before the new powers of the galaxy. There is no hope. Humanity was doomed the moment Magnus blew a hole in the webway.

 

And what's worse, they chose Guilliman, for no other reason I can deduce other than Ultramarine drivel. I have a great deal of difficulty believing a similar solution has not been found over the course of the 9000 years leading up to this. Again, fate worse than death. This is made more frustrating by the fact that, if you must bring back a primarch, the Lion is alive! He's fine, just asleep! Imagine someone as self-righteous as the Lion returning to see what the Imperium has become, what great schisms would occur between those loyal to him, and those he refused to tolerate. 

 

I love the heresy, but it has consumed a setting it should never have had any great part in. The Loyalist primarchs are dead. The traitor primarchs are unconcerned with what the galaxy has or will become. It is the sons now, waging wars in the names of their uncaring or long-dead fathers. The feud has outlasted its progenitors for 10,000 years. It is depressing and tragic and entirely 40k. And Gathering Storm just fails to capture that.

 

 

you need hope to really suffer though, right?

[b1soul]

I never thought of 40K as a 100% hopeless setting...

 

To me, it had always always been a candle flame flickering in a vast gulf of darkness

 

Post Gathering Storm, that candle flame burns more steadily...but the surrounding darkness is even blacker than before