Gathering Storm

[Roomsky]

 

you need hope to really suffer though, right?

 

 

True, but hope can be acquired in ways that don't involve the primarchs (and for the record, I don't want to see traitor primarchs coming into the fray either). The more they become involved, the more we move from astartes carrying on the fight of their fathers to astartes keeping the seat warm for the primarchs to come finish their scrap.

[b1soul]

Welll...it boils down to how much one likes Primarchs

 

I personally can't get enough of th when written competently

[HeritorA]

Don't worry. Any actual novels won't be written for some time. The authors will need time to digest the events and put their own spin on some events.

No one will cover the throne room conversation. It's not the way 40k works. Not since inquisition war. Besides. "Son" or not. The Custodes wouldn't let someone in completely on their own with escort.

No.

Just no. They failed to protect him once. It's not going to happen a second time.

Only Guilliman went through the door. Nothing to say there weren't Custodes already on the other side.

Similarly, it's entirely possible that Guilliman took a long hard look at the reality of the Throne and the Immortal God-Emperor of Mankind; the conversation could have been *very* one-sided. Similarly, there might have been Ad Mech behind the door.

Better, this could all be a Thorian-Mechanicus schismatic thing - Guilliman after that door might be a very different Guilliman to the one who went into the status pod in the first place. As might the Guilliman who died to be resurrected by Ynnead.

There's a lot of room for... mischief.

Guilliman behaved badly - he promised and agreed to help Cypher get to the Throneroom, instead he behaved like a ....

Fulgrim has officially 2 primarch kills.

In general yes :) The most efficient Primarch of them all, through a little bit hedonistic :)

Warning, strong opinions follow:

"In the grim darkness of the far future, there is only war."

I don't care how perturbed Guilliman is that the Imperium has gone to :cusse, his mere presence is far too hopeful for this setting. Guilliman was in stasis because it was a fate worse than death, the "man" who held the Imperium together after the heresy perpetually moments from death, and used as a monument to everything he fought to avoid. It's soul-crushingly dark and is now entirely undermined by his return.

There's nothing wrong with a bright and colourful and hopeful setting with a bit of edge to it, but that setting is not 40k. It is the time of ending, if the Imperium does not fall to Chaos, it will fall to Orks, and if not Orks Nekrons, and if not Nekrons Tau, and if not Tau Tyranids. The Imperium could live on if it were unified, but it has mired itself in so much politiking and ignorance that such a unity is impossible now. It can only bare its teeth and do as much damage as it can as its brought low before the new powers of the galaxy. There is no hope. Humanity was doomed the moment Magnus blew a hole in the webway.

And what's worse, they chose Guilliman, for no other reason I can deduce other than Ultramarine drivel. I have a great deal of difficulty believing a similar solution has not been found over the course of the 9000 years leading up to this. Again, fate worse than death. This is made more frustrating by the fact that, if you must bring back a primarch, the Lion is alive! He's fine, just asleep! Imagine someone as self-righteous as the Lion returning to see what the Imperium has become, what great schisms would occur between those loyal to him, and those he refused to tolerate.

I love the heresy, but it has consumed a setting it should never have had any great part in. The Loyalist primarchs are dead. The traitor primarchs are unconcerned with what the galaxy has or will become. It is the sons now, waging wars in the names of their uncaring or long-dead fathers. The feud has outlasted its progenitors for 10,000 years. It is depressing and tragic and entirely 40k. And Gathering Storm just fails to capture that.

Exactly. And the same traitor primarchs - all Daemon Princes now right out of the blue decided to maddle in the Imperium affairs again. Just BECAUSE

Xisor 'There are Genestealers on Terra as per TGS 2' - one of the biggest facepalm moments of them all - really? For really real?

I never thought of 40K as a 100% hopeless setting...

To me, it had always always been a candle flame flickering in a vast gulf of darkness

Post Gathering Storm, that candle flame burns more steadily...but the surrounding darkness is even blacker than before

But even through blacker - it is more HOPE now than ever - cause plot armour and Buirlliman

[HeritorA]

Welll...it boils down to how much one likes Primarchs

 

I personally can't get enough of th when written competently

Which happens rarely nowdays ;) Wraight and Haley for the rescue :)

[Dagoth Ur]

Welll...it boils down to how much one likes Primarchs

I personally can't get enough of th when written competently

Which happens rarely nowdays Wraight and Haley for the rescue

On this I agree What would I give for a whole Death Guard novel written by Wraight...

[Xisor]

@HeritorA

 

With genestealers they had a sidebar dedicated to it in TGS2 - had to close off one of the Arctic hives for total purging.

 

Also, there's an Orkmada & Void Whale bound for Catachan, a "phantom star" hurtling towards Sol...

 

 

Which reminds me: Orks.

 

 

Ghazkull, as of TGS3, has been sighted active on dozens of warzone locales far-flung around the galaxy... in quick succession. Leering Ork faces of gargantuan proportions haunting the void. Almost as if Ghaza isn't the only Mag Uruk doing the rounds...

 

 

---

 

In fairness, it's for a very long time been noted that the surviving Traitors have been conspicuously inactive.

 

So much so that it leads some (err, okay: me) to think (err, insist) that Lorgar is actually dead and has been for a while...

 

As for Fulgrim, Perturabo, Mortarion, Magnus, Angron (and, fine, Lorgar) - it's always been possible that they were plausibly active throughout the whole history of 40k.

 

Much of the insinuation was given to them mostly 'retiring' into the warp once they became Daemon Princes, but generally, there was always a lot of room for them to be active in.

[HeritorA]

@HeritorA

 

With genestealers they had a sidebar dedicated to it in TGS2 - had to close off one of the Arctic hives for total purging.

 

Also, there's an Orkmada & Void Whale bound for Catachan, a "phantom star" hurtling towards Sol...

 

 

Which reminds me: Orks.

 

 

Ghazkull, as of TGS3, has been sighted active on dozens of warzone locales far-flung around the galaxy... in quick succession. Leering Ork faces of gargantuan proportions haunting the void. Almost as if Ghaza isn't the only Mag Uruk doing the rounds...

 

 

---

 

In fairness, it's for a very long time been noted that the surviving Traitors have been conspicuously inactive.

 

So much so that it leads some (err, okay: me) to think (err, insist) that Lorgar is actually dead and has been for a while...

 

As for Fulgrim, Perturabo, Mortarion, Magnus, Angron (and, fine, Lorgar) - it's always been possible that they were plausibly active throughout the whole history of 40k.

 

Much of the insinuation was given to them mostly 'retiring' into the warp once they became Daemon Princes, but generally, there was always a lot of room for them to be active in.

As for the Genestealers - it's really a 'bad' fluff to put them on Terra, due to a lot of reasons.

 

As for the Lorgar being dead for awhile - that contradicts WB trilogy by Reynolds (but due to the recent changes they could simply retcon that easily).

 

And as far as lore goes - we saw only Angron, Mortarion and Magnus being active in 900 years of M40K.

 

In general they have a lot of stories to tell - if they want to.

[Brother Dougal]

I'm totally okay with the Primarchs returning. Really, when you look at what they are, how could the story of this age of darkness come to an end Without their involvement? Never mind all the mysteries surrounding their various fates, but if you're ever going to have a Time of Ending, then everybody should get one last hurrah before we head out. Chaos is rising, the Eldar are giving the dice one last throw, nad the Imperium's catching one last breath before the end.

 

I'm a fan of multiple factions in this game, so now that the Gathering Storm is over, I wanna see what crazy :cuss they bring out for the Orks and Necrons in this new moment. Will the Beasts of Ullanor rise again? Will new C'tan make their appearance, both in poke balls and out? Will Shas O'Kais finally come out of the shadows and make his mark for the Greater Good?

 

Custom Tau battlesuits with Dark Age-level technology. Orks the size of small Titans. Star Gods that can suck the life from entire battlefields. This is the Time of Ending, let's go out with a bang!

[HeritorA]

'Custom Tau battlesuits with Dark Age-level technology. Orks the size of small Titans. Star Gods that can suck the life from entire battlefields. This is the Time of Ending, let's go out with a bang!' -

and that in my humble opinion would be really really bad and exactly what we do not need in W40-41K

[Dagoth Ur]

Why would it be bad? Most of that stuff has already been present in the fluff at one point at least (Original C'tan and the Beast Arises series anyone?)

Why is genestealers on Terra "bad" fluff when the tyranid fluff has always stated that the tyranids were partially entering the milky way from the galaxy's underside (astrophysically speaking there is no up and down in space but you get what I mean) and thus could potentially circumvent most of Mankinds defenses on the path to Terra.

If you are going to decry something as bad or foul at least give some reasons for the discussion's sake.

The end of the 40th millenium has always been defined as the time of Ending. Naturally loose ends will be tied together at such a point. It is only most logical that those faulty for the current gloom and doom (The heresy pretty much set the stage for the ten thousand years following it) will return and finish what was started. We have only seen a few traitor primarchs appear since then, true. But us not knowing something does not equal that it did not happen. Perturabo, Omegon etc could have very well been doing stuff that is not mentioned to us or simply just isn't written yet. That doesn't exclude anything. 40k has never been a conventional, logical story. For the majority of its life it has been more akin to a medieval epos or hellenistic tragedy turned into a setting.

[Kelborn]

I'm thankful for Xisors and Heris posts. They'll save me money and I know that I'll stick with 30 - up to GTS.

Genestealers on Terra? Gaghzkull as new Beast?

 

Its both, facepalm and repitition. :/

[HeritorA]

Why would it be bad? Most of that stuff has already been present in the fluff at one point at least (Original C'tan and the Beast Arises series anyone?)

Why is genestealers on Terra "bad" fluff when the tyranid fluff has always stated that the tyranids were partially entering the milky way from the galaxy's underside (astrophysically speaking there is no up and down in space but you get what I mean) and thus could potentially circumvent most of Mankinds defenses on the path to Terra.

If you are going to decry something as bad or foul at least give some reasons for the discussion's sake.

The end of the 40th millenium has always been defined as the time of Ending. Naturally loose ends will be tied together at such a point. It is only most logical that those faulty for the current gloom and doom (The heresy pretty much set the stage for the ten thousand years following it) will return and finish what was started. We have only seen a few traitor primarchs appear since then, true. But us not knowing something does not equal that it did not happen. Perturabo, Omegon etc could have very well been doing stuff that is not mentioned to us or simply just isn't written yet. That doesn't exclude anything. 40k has never been a conventional, logical story. For the majority of its life it has been more akin to a medieval epos or hellenistic tragedy turned into a setting.

Partly because of what Kelborn said above. And in general - Custom Tau battlesuits with Dark Age-level technology. - because that's not the tau in W40K of old. Orks the size of small Titans - that's not the orks in W40K of old. Star Gods that can suck the life from entire battlefields - which appeared rarely in W40K of old.

[Xisor]

Pfft. All this stuff has existed and titillated the book readers for ages.

 

Legion's Black Cube.

Know No Fear's Ruinstorm.

The Dark Age of Technology.

The Iron Men out of First & Only.

The Cache out of Damnation of Pythos.

Grulgor's ghost in Vengeful Spirit.

The Organgrinder in Death of Antagonis.

The Unbound Flame in Nocturne.

The totally emptied planet in Sabbat World's Crusade.

The destruction of St Josmine's Hope during the EoT campaign.

The Planetkiller.

The Blackstone Fortresses.

The Flame of Vaul in "Valedor"

The Dysjunctions in Path of the DE

The Tower in Dark Apostle.

The Necrons, generally.

The Necrons, specifically.

Orkimedes in the Third War for Armageddon.

The Tau Starkillers.

Orks of Phenomenal Power.

Random Ork superweapons.

C'tan shards all over the shop.

The Silver Throne from Faith & Fire.

The World Engine.

 

 

The galaxy is littered with daft nonsense. 40k is riddled with it. There's always been (Daemon) Primarchs out there - the genestealers have always been encroaching.

 

To that end, I'd contend the TGS problem is mostly in a jarring theme & tone, a lack of other details, not strictly the details we actually have.

[Dagoth Ur]

Why would it be bad? Most of that stuff has already been present in the fluff at one point at least (Original C'tan and the Beast Arises series anyone?)

Why is genestealers on Terra "bad" fluff when the tyranid fluff has always stated that the tyranids were partially entering the milky way from the galaxy's underside (astrophysically speaking there is no up and down in space but you get what I mean) and thus could potentially circumvent most of Mankinds defenses on the path to Terra.

If you are going to decry something as bad or foul at least give some reasons for the discussion's sake.

The end of the 40th millenium has always been defined as the time of Ending. Naturally loose ends will be tied together at such a point. It is only most logical that those faulty for the current gloom and doom (The heresy pretty much set the stage for the ten thousand years following it) will return and finish what was started. We have only seen a few traitor primarchs appear since then, true. But us not knowing something does not equal that it did not happen. Perturabo, Omegon etc could have very well been doing stuff that is not mentioned to us or simply just isn't written yet. That doesn't exclude anything. 40k has never been a conventional, logical story. For the majority of its life it has been more akin to a medieval epos or hellenistic tragedy turned into a setting.

Partly because of what Kelborn said above. And in general - Custom Tau battlesuits with Dark Age-level technology. - because that's not the tau in W40K of old. Orks the size of small Titans - that's not the orks in W40K of old. Star Gods that can suck the life from entire battlefields - which appeared rarely in W40K of old.

Ah so it's the good old "Yesterday the world was better, the grass was greener and the society was happier" trope. Why does non-existence at some arbitrary point in the past cause the subject to be bad? That is circular logic i.e. no logic at all. Neither you nor Kelborn have stated any point as to how or why all this is neccessarily bad? I don't think that Gathering Storm is the pinnacle of storytelling, dear Emperor no, but it is not the hellish maw of eternal damnation some make it out to be.

By your logic Tau and Necrons are the greatest travesty of all times because "Hurr Durr was not in the W40k of old, the Rogue Trader era, the OG stuff." That's not reasoning. That's not an argument. It's a farce to just lament something completely arbitrary and blowing it out of proportion without actually giving a reason.

Is Gathering Storm excellently written? No, not at all. In many incidents it is written pretty poorly actually. The choice of words falls flat in certain parts, there are a few deus ex machina too many and we lack explanations to some characters and bit more involvement from their side (What is Huron doing? What are Abbadon's exact motivations behind the gifting of the Black Fortress and the Siege of Ultramar? Where do the Sisters of Silence come from?) Some issues are more glaring than others (Sisters of Silence > Abbadon & Huron). Many codexes and campaign books are ailed by such issues too. Not everything can be a Talon of Horus or a Liber Chaotica. Not everything can or even should be. Although here I have to say that the German translation, from what I hear, is more pleasant to read than the English one, when it comes to writing and text-flow that is.

Is the content good? Eh, depends how you look at it really. As countless discussions tell us, the primarchs, loyalists that is, would be appalled at the sight of the current Imperium. Considering under what ideals they were created and brought up, as evident by the HH Series, it makes sense that they would be. Thus it is logical that Guillaume deplores the state of the Imperium, but his reaction towards the Ultramarines is, to some, unexpected. The Ultramarines that were presented as the most glorious SM ever (Hurr Durr Ward) are a disapointment to their father. They fall short of the men Guillaume has waged the Great Crusade and Heresy with. While being paragons to everyone (Or are supposed to be, most of us dislike this notion to some extent), they fall short to the one man whose progeny they are and who wrote the one book they follow so rigorously. On the other hand we have stuff like the Red Corsairs not properly trapping their captives (Not depowering their armor), which does not make much sense. I could go on and on, but it is evident that there is both good and bad in here.

Again, I am not trying to defend GS. I am not trying to make it out to be some salvation. But I am sick of the mad buhurt that is going around everytime something new is released. "It is bad because it's not like the old" "I don't like it because it is " "WahWah they changed it!". Why is it bad that it does not resemble the old? Why was the old so much better? What is the reasoning for it being ? Why is change in and on itself bad?

Again, for the sake of the discussion, arguments are needed. Arguments that actually have some base and foundation and are not of a circular "Because I say so!" nature.

[Xisor]

@The Observer - your delightful tirade has reminded me: all of this, especially from the tabletop viewpoint of invulnerable super-characters, reminds me very much of what I knew of Second Edition. Couple it to unwieldy dozens-of-books to run most armies rules, preposterous degrees of cree and so forth...

 

It's all *very* second edition. Which is ironic when juxtaposed with wistful "grass is always greener" thinking of long gone bygone golden days

[Sete]

Most of the time i don't have issue with advancing the lore or adding new stuff just be consistent with it.

 

Orks the size of a Hab block?

Hell yeah!

 

Tau with even bigger suits, I'll pass lol. It's hard enough as it is lol.

 

Actually the Ultras are not a disappointment to Guilliman,if anything these guys that never knew hope or never stod at the precipice of a golden age, and yet despite overwhelming odds, keep fighting is what gives him strength to go forward.

 

If they don't quit, sure as hell Guilliman will not quit.

What example would that be?

 

Not sure you are getting the disappointed from.

 

I have mixed feelings.

 

On one side Primarchs coming back is awesome, on the other, not everyone will have a primarch back.

 

Also it will focus on them for most the time.

 

How will Straken compete with Guilliman feats?

Even a chapter master?

 

They will be overshadowed.

 

Let's see how the fight with the Orks go.

 

Yarrick and Helbrecth were giving him chase.

Let's see who will win the day.

 

I bet it will not be them.

[A D-B]

@The Observer - your delightful tirade has reminded me: all of this, especially from the tabletop viewpoint of invulnerable super-characters, reminds me very much of what I knew of Second Edition. Couple it to unwieldy dozens-of-books to run most armies rules, preposterous degrees of cree and so forth...

 

It's all *very* second edition. Which is ironic when juxtaposed with wistful "grass is always greener" thinking of long gone bygone golden days

 

Second Edition was Codex Imperialis. Sometimes the grass was just greener.

 

(Maybe not universally, and I hear you in terms of the tabletop. But that's the 40K Bible.)

[Vel'Cona]

Keep it civil, brothers.  I like a good grumble as much as anyone but it's not helpful to the discussion.  :)

[Sete]

And Genestealer at Terra? Love the idea.

The throne world should not be immune to danger.

 

Millions of pilgrims pass through Terra.

There are gangs and smugglers aplenty.

 

Talking about that, Chris Wraight book, with Custodes and Inquisition, might shed some light on the dangers present on the Throne World.

[Kelborn]

Chris has the potential to convince me of this "idea" of Grbestealers on Terra.

 

Otherwise, yeah, it could've happened but otherwise I think that there should be a protective system or procedure to check those pilgrims in order to avoid attacks abd the likes to deal with infiltrating psykers, traitors and probably Xenos.

 

Or they are too confident of themselves abd that lead to a gap for the Genestealers to infiltrate Terra.

 

As long as these scenarios are well done and presented, I'm enjoying them. :)

[DarkChaplain]

And Genestealer at Terra? Love the idea.

The throne world should not be immune to danger.

 

Millions of pilgrims pass through Terra.

There are gangs and smugglers aplenty.

 

Talking about that, Chris Wraight book, with Custodes and Inquisition, might shed some light on the dangers present on the Throne World.

 

Exactly that. Terra is a popular pilgrimage goal. Seeing how Genestealer Cults are often hidden behind supposedly Emperor-worshipping cults, it makes perfect sense that, at some point, after centuries, somebody ends up there and spreads the genes. All it takes is one leak, somewhere, anywhere. For all we know, this is down to the one in a billion chance of something slipping through. Its not a matter of if, but when.

[Kelborn]

Genestealer within the Segnentum Solar were already heralded in their codex. Just checked it, so: Ok, you've convinced me that there is a chance for them to be on terra.

 

If Chris' novel deals with them, that would be pretty damn awesome. Hopefully dark, weird and horror-ish. Inquisitor + custodes against a cult... That would be interesting.

[Felix Antipodes]

There are a lot of cryptic side notes within all three volumes of GS, not all of which (I feel) are just for 'flavour'. The genestealers on Terra could be a nod to Chris Wraight's upcoming for instance. I would not be surprised if some of the others turn out to be similar Easter eggs.

[HeritorA]

Pfft. All this stuff has existed and titillated the book readers for ages.

 

Legion's Black Cube.

Know No Fear's Ruinstorm.

The Dark Age of Technology.

The Iron Men out of First & Only.

The Cache out of Damnation of Pythos.

Grulgor's ghost in Vengeful Spirit.

The Organgrinder in Death of Antagonis.

The Unbound Flame in Nocturne.

The totally emptied planet in Sabbat World's Crusade.

The destruction of St Josmine's Hope during the EoT campaign.

The Planetkiller.

The Blackstone Fortresses.

The Flame of Vaul in "Valedor"

The Dysjunctions in Path of the DE

The Tower in Dark Apostle.

The Necrons, generally.

The Necrons, specifically.

Orkimedes in the Third War for Armageddon.

The Tau Starkillers.

Orks of Phenomenal Power.

Random Ork superweapons.

C'tan shards all over the shop.

The Silver Throne from Faith & Fire.

The World Engine.

 

 

The galaxy is littered with daft nonsense. 40k is riddled with it. There's always been (Daemon) Primarchs out there - the genestealers have always been encroaching.

 

To that end, I'd contend the TGS problem is mostly in a jarring theme & tone, a lack of other details, not strictly the details we actually have.

jarring them and tone, lack of details, crap prose - doubled up on what you said.

 

 

@The Observer - your delightful tirade has reminded me: all of this, especially from the tabletop viewpoint of invulnerable super-characters, reminds me very much of what I knew of Second Edition. Couple it to unwieldy dozens-of-books to run most armies rules, preposterous degrees of cree and so forth...

 

It's all *very* second edition. Which is ironic when juxtaposed with wistful "grass is always greener" thinking of long gone bygone golden days

 

Second Edition was Codex Imperialis. Sometimes the grass was just greener.

 

(Maybe not universally, and I hear you in terms of the tabletop. But that's the 40K Bible.)

Amen

 

 

And Genestealer at Terra? Love the idea.

The throne world should not be immune to danger.

 

Millions of pilgrims pass through Terra.

There are gangs and smugglers aplenty.

 

Talking about that, Chris Wraight book, with Custodes and Inquisition, might shed some light on the dangers present on the Throne World.

 

Exactly that. Terra is a popular pilgrimage goal. Seeing how Genestealer Cults are often hidden behind supposedly Emperor-worshipping cults, it makes perfect sense that, at some point, after centuries, somebody ends up there and spreads the genes. All it takes is one leak, somewhere, anywhere. For all we know, this is down to the one in a billion chance of something slipping through. Its not a matter of if, but when.

 

Absolutely not. Terra was an ever will be the most guarded place in the Galaxy - except for the usual tripple guards, where always were Custodes on a run up mission, thousands of Inquisitors and agents, Eclesiarhy zealots, Space marines and hundred of thousands of guess what 'PSYKERS' (WHO WOULD HAVE FOUND GENESTEALERS JUST AFTER SEVERAL MINUTES)

[Sete]

And yet at the height of the Heresy, traitor forces managed to deploy agents, make binding rituals and prisons escapes.

 

4th and 5th generation hybrids and virtually indistinguishable from the host species.

I doubt the psykers have a professor x machine around.

Also psykers are usually the first to be infected.

 

A major cover up conspiracy.