8th Edition: Zeal Rising

[AndrewChristlieb]

In other news, Grimaldus and his Servitors still can not join other squads. :D Not so much an issue anymore though I suppose.

[asbonet]

Also it has been confirmed. Challengers are gone......

[Brother Christopher]

Sorry to say that, as it might sound harsh, but - so what? We are the Black Templars, we don't really need a game mechanic for challenges because we accept any challenge, no matter the odds!

[Banjulhu]

So what are the odds that Grimaldus with his servitors will be a unit and therefore a viable target for any shooting?

[TheOneTrueZon]

Also it has been confirmed. Challengers are gone......

 

Where was this confirmed and by who? I see no mention of that in the WH Community site posting on Characters.

[Marshal Mattias]

So what are the odds that Grimaldus with his servitors will be a unit and therefore a viable target for any shooting?

 

I think it is more likely that they will return to being effectively wargear, or treated as extra wounds or something. It would be totally at odds with the simplification of character/unit interaction to make them a single unit that still contained a character. That, or the servitors are a unit, which when purchased, Grimaldus must remain in x" of, meaning they can be targeted normally but he still cannot... I guess there are a few possibilities. I'm actually pretty hopeful that both Grim and the EC are going to be back in a big way... No breath-holding on Helbrecht though, I think he will still remain an infantry-killer with quite narrow usage.

[Marshal Wolfhart]

Today's post about the lowly mortals says the Leman Russ has T8 12W 3+Sv. I don't want to start wishlisting, but what will the Land Raider look like? 15W? 2+Sv? Or would they dare have the Leman Russ be sturdier than our beloved Crusader?

[Knight of the Raven]

The comment about "ingloriously throwing a tread going over a bush" seems to imply Land Raiders won't need to lament the lack of dozer blade upgrade anymore.

 

edit: unless it's exclusive to lumbering behemoths like Leman Russes...

[TheOneTrueZon]

There was mention of Imperial Knights having "dozens" of wounds. So plausibly 24W on an IK, 12W on a Russ, I would put our Land Raiders at between 15-17W.

 

I hope for 16, because I like even numbers.

[Canadian_F_H]

There was mention of Imperial Knights having "dozens" of wounds. So plausibly 24W on an IK, 12W on a Russ, I would put our Land Raiders at between 15-17W.

 

I hope for 16, because I like even numbers.

18 or 20 would be ok...

[JAG Templar]

Also it has been confirmed. Challengers are gone......

Where was this confirmed and by who? I see no mention of that in the WH Community site posting on Characters.

[balordazul]

That is there an opinion for the future Grimaldus & Retinue in 8th?

[Marshal_Roujakis]

What about Transport? If I had a full Drop Pod army, my character gets to ride in his own Pod???

What about things like Command Squads? I can't attach anymore, so Command Squad have their own Pod and Grimaldus has his own?

 

How about Overwatch fire? He's alone, so any charges that I make with him means he's going to soak up all the overwatch... what's the point in getting characters to melee then?

They're just going to soak up all attacks as well, since in melee you can aim attacks at anyone that you can engage...

 

Lastly, did they seriously just make this into Age of Guilliman?

 

I'm going to have a look at these rules when it comes out... by this has been my main beef... Characters are a big staple for me in games of 40k, they should be the most feared, the most notorious, the famous and infamous, terrifying and inspiring at the same time... and banding Characters together just makes it more thematic like watching the Avengers fight as one cohesive force, or seeing the Justice League take down a powerful villain together, or Grimaldus striding in the confined areas of the Battle Cathedral of an Imperator Battle Titan with his Command Squad Squad killing as they go...

 

I do mind some of the rules they've released for 8th, it needs a bit more better tweaking but it hasn't been fully released so I chalked it up as holding in the surprise, but this might put a nail in one of my favorite aspect of the game... Characters and swamping through melee... If heroes like the Emperor's Champion have anything less than 4 Wounds this edition AND cannot ride in a transport that has a squad in it, but has space for one more, then I don't think I'll be playing this edition... I'll be making one of my own like usual...

There might be a defense against shooting, in which you can't target the character unless he's the closest model, but Overwatch will annihilate him, I take it that Sniper weapons will take him down, removal of challenges will see the Emperor's Champion try to waddle through Cultists as the Sorcerer leaves the melee with his Fall Back rule which states NOTHING about not being able to do anything during the Psychic Phase... 

 

or they can simply just go around the squad... hey, look Grimaldus is walking with his Servitors at the back, let's use our Jet Packs and shoot him while he's not looking... every Templars nightmare against Tau...

 

I think this is a really, really, really bad idea... if they are worried about Death Stars, then just control it so that squads without their... keyword?... couldn't be joined... characters can only join squads that are the same type as they are, so Bikes with Bikes, Jump Infantry with Jump Infantry, Infantry with Infantry and Monstrous Creatures and Independent Characters cannot band together... they just turned 40k into Warcraft 3 or bloody DoW 3... sigh...

 

I'm back to being overly negatively skeptic about 8th ed. in just one news.... sigh...

[Ciler]

So what are the odds that Grimaldus with his servitors will be a unit and therefore a viable target for any shooting?

Low. They would go out of their way to explain that characters can't join units to immediately create an exception ?

[Acebaur]

Roujakis you need to calm down brother, you are making a HUGE amount of assumptions based on very very little information. I'm sure characters will be able to ride in transports with squads, it would be ridiculous otherwise. Also remember that you can't overwatch if locked in combat so you charge it the squad first and then they can't do anything against the character.

 

Take a deep breath, go take a 5 min breather in the pain glove and be patient for the full rules before jumping to conclusions

[balordazul]

I want to note that this new GW is answering questions on the FB page near the time the GW blogs are released.  It is a PR team vs talking to the Development team but it would be smart to start making lists of good non hateful questions what could be given a response to when they do the faction spotlight for SM.

 

Also we might want to show our support for BT on there.  Even going so far as coming up with a hashtag that we all add to our questions so the GW and community can see all the interest in BT.

 

I know this is goofy stuff but if you do nothing, nothing will ever happen vs a slight glimmer of hope and pride for being a Crusader.

 

A hashtag that came to mind - include the name plus the purpose.

#BlackTemlparRevival

 

Questions that have come to my mind.

Does the EC have a challenge like mechanism similar to the 2005 codex prior to challenges being in the core rules?

Do BT have vows again or just chapter tactics?

Any chance to see a BT spotlight on the blog?

Do the new rules for BT provide any homage to elements in the old codex like Righteous zeal, holy orb, cenobite servitors or blessed hall?

[SydonianDragoon404]

That is there an opinion for the future Grimaldus & Retinue in 8th?

My Opinion- he just became vastly better if his rules in 8th resemble his rules now. He couldn't join a unit without giving up his FNP buff before, now joining units doesn't even exist. 

 

I hope he gets a new model, the current one is pretty cool but I would like to see him with a new shiny update. 

[Ishagu]

On the transport and characters issue:

 

In Age of Sigmar transports can hold multiple units as long as the capacity is not exceeded.

For example the airships that holds 20 models - you can put a 15 man unit and an additional 5 heroes if you so desire.

 

I really expect 40k to adopt this rule as it's simple, elegant and thematic - though I still expect some guys won't fit in certain transports.

 

I actually think Heroes will get a massive buff now because abilities will be altered from affecting a single unit to being auras affecting all units around them. On top of this they'll have more wounds and attacks, as well as being invulnerable to shooting if positioned correctly.

[Canadian_F_H]

It would be nice to throw multiple small squads into one transpo. Especially in a bug out situation.

[d3m01iti0n]

I've been commenting on pretty much all their posts with questions about Templars. Keep pushing you guys it doesn't hurt.

 

Edit: 20 man Crusader squad could in theory bubblewrap a character. To what benefit I'm not sure, but there are enough models to do it with the IC technically not attached.

[Marshal_Roujakis]

I've been commenting on pretty much all their posts with questions about Templars. Keep pushing you guys it doesn't hurt.

 

Edit: 20 man Crusader squad could in theory bubblewrap a character. To what benefit I'm not sure, but there are enough models to do it with the IC technically not attached.

 

you have to space them out so that he's technically inside of it, but not a part of it... that's pretty much what I do with Grimaldus if I decide to take him with Servitors...

 

Still upset though that 40k isn't really 40k anymore... just a re-textured Age of Sigmar... I hate it when they change a game like this... I mean I do understand changing editions and such, that's how a game should evolve, but just like computer games where they just copy each other, it gets boring if I decide to do change platforms, such as 40k - AoS, and find out that it was just practically the same game but with a slight difference in rules and models used...

 

People just can't come up with original stuff anymore, everything is just a re-hash... up to and including gaming rules... now I literally need to get out of GW I.P. if I want to play a totally different game...

 

Does this change also mean that I can fight Stormcast Eternals in games of 40k? I mean they practically use almost the same rules... why not just remove the slight border separation and just make it to 1 Massive game... realm of Sigmar vs Imperium of Man... I mean the rules pretty much allows it... call it Age of 40k or something...

 

 

 Also remember that you can't overwatch if locked in combat so you charge it the squad first and then they can't do anything against the character.

 

So, technically, I have to get a squad to charge first, hope they get into Activation distance, and soak up overwatch, then I have to charge with the character in tow behind them hoping that he manages to squeeze in somehow behind the cluster of models, keeping them coherent, and get into activation range himself... if any of them don't make the charge, the Character is literally going to get blown apart in either Overwatch or the Shooting Phase... not to mention that if the squad they Assaulted did Fall Back, and there are no more Consolidation Move if they Fall Back, then the character is standing there right in front of a squad, which basically makes him the closest target... if Look Out Sir! is gone too, then he's going to catch all of that Shooting... sure that brings a lot of Tactical Playing to get Characters to be effective which makes games really tactical, but I'd rather have Characters attach to a Squad, they all charge together, they all fight together, and if the enemy Falls Back, then the squad soak up the damage protecting their commander till the end... MUCH MUCH MORE THEMATIC... especially for Guardsmen or Tyrant Guards...

 

With the new 8th rules, a slight mistake in positioning your character will see him blown apart right in front of a squad that could have protected him... imagine the Assault on the Black Gate from LOTR moment, except Aragorn got shot by an arrow in the head because he decided to charge head-on first... yeah... that's 8th edition...

[The Spanish Inquisitor]

Take a look at the heroic intervention rule, characters have an additional 3' bonus to get in combat. 

We don't know yet everything about overwatch, but yeah it would be a shame if characters cannot lead the charge anymore. 

[SCOTT_FRANCIS]

I agree with lots being said here, it does seem that 8th wants characters to "lead from the back" and not "lead by example".

 

But I believe our characters should "lead from the front", be the one calling for the charge, be the one who hacks through a Carnifex leg then plunge his sword through its head, calling out the enemies champions to glorious single combat.

 

The final part of the Character rule set is Heroic Intervention. This allows Characters near a combat to pile in and attack if the enemy comes close enough, even if they themselves aren’t charged.

 

These rules, together, mean that you’ll see Characters advancing in the midst of their armies surrounded by groups of units benefiting from their particular expertise – which looks great on the tabletop, reflects the background we all know of the 41st Millennium, and offers some interesting tactical challenges as players try to get the most from their army’s leaders while keeping them alive…

 

Not very Templary is it, skulking at the back until combat rolls into 3" of you, then swiping from the side.

 

I hope there are more specific rules for characters, or my wish is for the rules to be part of the character profile.

[Marshal_Roujakis]

During this edition, I've actually managed to pull off the single character Charge and slayed a 10 Man Cultist Squad w/ a single Emperor's Champion in a turn...

 

I sent a squad to charge in to try and soak overwatch (there was only 3 of them left) none were wounded, but they failed their Charge distance check... The Champion was coming in from another angle, so I charged with him afterwards, the Cultists already fired Overwatch and my Champion made the charge without getting shot at, killed 3 and suffered no wound in retaliation... squad failed Morale Test and Sweeping Advance Annihilated them... luckily enough, I managed to Consolidate close enough to the squad to catch Look Out Sir! rolls...

 

So things that will be different in the scenario this 8th edition:

 

If the scenario repeated itself again, and I try to pull off the same thing, this is how it's going to be...

I send a Squad in to soak Overwatch... they all survive (hopefully), if they pass the charge, then I send in the Emperor's Champion... if I fail their Charge, then I move them closer... hopefully there will still be Consolidation move afterwards... then I decide if the Emperor's Champion is lucky or tough enough to wade through D6 Flamer attacks (as oppose to D3) and some Laspistols... so let's say I tried and let's say GW bumped up his stats significantly... he gets shot by Overwatch (since units can now fire multiple overwatch...) if he dies, then scenario over... let's say he lives taking no wounds, and makes the charge... he kills 3 again just for the sake of history repeating itself and suffers no wound in retaliation... Cultists lose combat, and if I remember correctly they lost Ld by 3 points... so using new rules, Ld - (D6 + Loses) = lost units... so let's say he rolled a 2 in the D6... so 8 - (2 + 3) = loses this many out of 7 (so the result would be 3 dead)... leaving 4 more guys for the Champion to waddle through for another turn... and unless AoS has Sweeping Advance or some other rule similar, next turn, the cultist could just turn and run, if there is consolidation, then my Champion can attempt to move towards the squad so that they'll be shot and he won't be blasted in the face..., if there are no Consolidation moves, then my Champion is going to be Swiss Cheese... either way... this actually prolongs melee and the Fall Back system could be abused to snipe off Characters...

 

tldr: 8th ed. rules as shown, makes it hard to get characters that aren't Primarchs to get into grips in melee and survive corresponding turns...

 

So if anyone who plays AoS here can show me what the profile is for a Champion type character and how they make him effective when he gets separated from their army, such as not getting blasted in the face by shooting and Overwatch, then I'm all ears...

[Kastor Krieg]

You guys are mistaking "charge first" with "move separately". These are just chess moves, they still fight as a unit and the Character has 3" bonus to wade into combat from the back, if you wanted him at the front.