8th Edition: Zeal Rising

[Marshal_Roujakis]

I see the mutants, the xeno lovers and witch-traitors closing in on Holy Terra.

 

You mean before or after Guilliman brought them there? :p

[Acebaur]

Also, for those with certain head-canons wishing to Crusade in 8th editions new frontier... here is the new 40k galactic map...

 

 

 

 

http://pro.bols.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/galaxy-shadowbox.jpg

 

 

 

My crusade is out in the Jericho Reach so I'm pretty certain that will be largely unaffected

[M@verik115]

My crusade is also crusading in the east with attached Cadian and Vostroyan regiments and grey knight assistance. 
I guess we are going to have to join Imperium Secundus...

[Lords of Preyspire]

Indeed, Mark of Guilliman.

[Banjulhu]

So far I am not feeling very confident about melee.

 

We know that units will be free to walk out of melee in the movement phase so there is not going to be a return to 4th ed where melee armies can sweeping advance to another combat to protect themselves from shooting.

 

Unless a sweeping advance can trigger a new charge that is resolved straight away I really think we will continue to see shooting dominating and the best to hope for is marines with bolt pistol and chainsword come in cheaper than those with boltguns to balance things out.

[Marshal_Roujakis]

My crusade is also crusading in the east with attached Cadian and Vostroyan regiments and grey knight assistance. 

I guess we are going to have to join Imperium Secundus...

 

I don't think he can go back to Ultima Segmentum just yet, unless aided again by the Aeldar...

 

The map is literally divided in half by that Warp storm...

 

 

So far I am not feeling very confident about melee.

 

We know that units will be free to walk out of melee in the movement phase so there is not going to be a return to 4th ed where melee armies can sweeping advance to another combat to protect themselves from shooting.

 

Unless a sweeping advance can trigger a new charge that is resolved straight away I really think we will continue to see shooting dominating and the best to hope for is marines with bolt pistol and chainsword come in cheaper than those with boltguns to balance things out.

 

I wouldn't be too sure... GW still might change the rules about charging, even though I find it effective... (I mean movement speed +D6 would be better for charging distance, but what do I know....)

Even if a unit walked out, that unit can only move and not do anything else... and if you had the entire battleline engaged, then that means that even if they fell back next turn, none of them can do anything... so just hit them again... just need to be dedicated to melee if you're going for it... also shooting got slightly nerfed due to AP modifiers instead of outright Sv. so getting shot by Plasma may still enable you to save your Marine...

 

The only real issue I can see is being able to do multiple overwatch... if a squad fails a charge, and you try to assault the same squad with another of your own, they may fire overwatch upon them again... with the unknown factor of what might happen to our Chapter Tactic, this may be a good thing or a bad thing...

 

but I'm still cautious against this 8th ed... and very skeptic about them leaking rules... I think that nothing is truly finalized yet, and they are watching how the community responds before the final release...

 

I'd say the easiest way to see if melee is going to be bad or not, is play mock games with the released rules... see for yourself if they're any good or not...

[T-Rock]

I think today's news on the assault phase is going to be pretty pivotal in shaping our reception of 8th. I know that overwatch has worried some people, but (sans Tau and DA) should overwatch really that big of a concern? A group of Orks or Guardsmen are still going to have to roll a 6 then (presumably) at least a 5. Then we still  get a 3+ armor save. I won't argue we will lose more troops than previously, but if we also wipe out way more in CC, that is a trade off worth making. 

 

Something else to consider is the fact the GW Facebook admin saying "Doing a conga gun line is going to be a bad idea. You'll see why tomorrow." This is total speculation, but it seems reasonable that is alluding to a potential ability to consolidate in to a new charge phase. As mentioned before, the enemy units can fall back, but that means they can't do anything the next turn. If, indeed, that is how things play out, I think that is a cool mechanic. and would make for more dynamic games. Instead of pillow fight mosh pits, CC would have a more authentic flow. Assault units would push enemies back, and they'd retreat after sustaining losses. 

 

Imagine a unit of guardsmen using it as a feint. Or picture our crusaders breaking through a gunline and laughing while they push the enemy off the board, hacking them apart along the way.

[Castellan Doren]

I'm reserved about 8th. But i haven't played since we got our own codex.

 

I missed out on our own box sets and characters. Hopefully they'll come back or get modernized.

 

Rules wise, they seem ok. But i'll pass judgement after playing a few games.

 

My crusades location is still in Cadian system. Does that mean they're all gone? I'm still catching up on the fluff.

[Othniel's Blade]

Activation in Fight phase gives free 3" move towards closest enemy; and as yesterday told us, its no longer base-to-base contact. You can use this to drag other enemy units into combat as well and stifle their shooting (no overwatch since not a direct charge).... Oh boy. Activation remains to be clarified for me, it seems to imply IGYG within the phase, but stratagems and certain units/models/weapons can interrupt the sequence.
 
I had to quote this, since it sounds so perfect for the Crusade:

Generals who successfully coordinate a battlefield-wide charge will be rewarded with a phase of utter carnage, while their opponent will have to work hard to minimise taking damage, and carefully consider their retaliatory options.

Expect combats to be hard-fought, bloody, and tactical – just as they should be.

 

[Banjulhu]

Those rules are a nice update but dont fill me with any form of confidence in melee becoming a viable option again.

[Othniel's Blade]

Something else to consider is the fact the GW Facebook admin saying "Doing a conga gun line is going to be a bad idea. You'll see why tomorrow." This is total speculation, but it seems reasonable that is alluding to a potential ability to consolidate in to a new charge phase. 

 

Imagine a unit of guardsmen using it as a feint. Or picture our crusaders breaking through a gunline and laughing while they push the enemy off the board, hacking them apart along the way.

 

 

Looks like that, exactly, though even more brutally.

[Augssan]

"Units that activate gain a free 3″ move towards the closest enemy. This can be used to get within 1″ of other enemy units, if you’re cunning, dragging more foes into the melee and preventing them from shooting next turn, even if you didn’t charge them directly (giving them no chance to overwatch). Enemy gun lines will need to be careful about how they position their supporting units, so as to avoid getting dragged into the fight too."

 

So am I understanding this right that we now have a chance to do a stroll up 3" and lock enemies in combat but it must be the closest unit before needing to charge.  Also does the also mean that we get 3" move to the closest enemy and charge the same unit you get 3"+2d6 distance to get within 1" of the target?

 

I might need more coffee.

[Kastor Krieg]

"Units that activate gain a free 3″ move towards the closest enemy. This can be used to get within 1″ of other enemy units, if you’re cunning, dragging more foes into the melee and preventing them from shooting next turn, even if you didn’t charge them directly (giving them no chance to overwatch). Enemy gun lines will need to be careful about how they position their supporting units, so as to avoid getting dragged into the fight too."

 

So am I understanding this right that we now have a chance to do a stroll up 3" and lock enemies in combat but it must be the closest unit before needing to charge.  Also does the also mean that we get 3" move to the closest enemy and charge the same unit you get 3"+2d6 distance to get within 1" of the target?

 

I might need more coffee.

No, wrong. Absolutely wrong.

 

3" happens when you are activated when you've already been locked in combat. It's a sticky pile-in that can get more enemies into your combat.

 

To get locked into combat you need to declare a charge in Movement Phase and with a 2d6" move get into 1" of at least one enemy model.

[Augssan]

 

"Units that activate gain a free 3″ move towards the closest enemy. This can be used to get within 1″ of other enemy units, if you’re cunning, dragging more foes into the melee and preventing them from shooting next turn, even if you didn’t charge them directly (giving them no chance to overwatch). Enemy gun lines will need to be careful about how they position their supporting units, so as to avoid getting dragged into the fight too."

 

So am I understanding this right that we now have a chance to do a stroll up 3" and lock enemies in combat but it must be the closest unit before needing to charge.  Also does the also mean that we get 3" move to the closest enemy and charge the same unit you get 3"+2d6 distance to get within 1" of the target?

 

I might need more coffee.

No, wrong. Absolutely wrong.

 

3" happens when you are activated when you've already been locked in combat. It's a sticky pile-in that can get more enemies into your combat.

 

To get locked into combat you need to declare a charge in Movement Phase and with a 2d6" move get into 1" of at least one enemy model.

 

Ah thanks!

 

The article was not very clear as it talked about charges being completed in the following paragraph and them not stating clearly when this was taking place or stating that this was the new pile-in.

 

Still not a bad change to the rules.  

 

I do wish they have also previewed the sweeping advance and if we can engage a new assault in that move.  

 

Yep I did need more coffee.

[Ishagu]

You can indeed drag another unit into combat with the 3" move.

 

These rules are straight out of AoS.

The Assault Phase is one thing AoS definitely does better.

 

As for people worried about getting into Assault, remember vehicles are now harder to remove. Drive up!

[BitsHammer]

Well at least if Tau keep their bunched up supporting fire you can drag the entire army into melee rather easily this way.

[d3m01iti0n]

I wonder if challenges are going away? Would lose a lot of the ECs fun.

[Sete]

EC will probably have new rules

[TheOneTrueZon]

EC will probably have new rules

 

And will most likely be hitting on 2+

 

"models representing the most competent warriors of the 41st Millennium (Guilliman, the Swarmlord, [ SOME STUPID ORC NAME REDACTED], to name but a few) will now hit on 2+!"

[BitsHammer]

So from what I can see is that shooting is less of a go-to for kiloing since rend values for basic ranged weapons seem to be set to zilch, while they're teasing us with news that melee weapons will be full of rending or extra wounding. As far as I've read it seems that wounds won't pull from the front anymore (like AoS) and assaulting from transports is back in (LIKE THE GOD EMPEROR INTENDED) making the game feel like it's taken a little teeth off of shooting and added it to the assault phase.

 

I have a feeling that succesful armies in our new meta will likely have to strike a balance between shooting and assault in some form, but I'm sure there will be plenty of big gun options for the shootier armies (Guard, Blue Fish People) to rely on to make up for the lack of armour negation in their basic weapons.

 

On a different note I'm wondering if unwieldy weapons will hit slightly worse than normal (example 4+ to hit with a PF initiate instead of a 3+).

[balordazul]

Well I have a few thoughts.  First the AoS style of combat is a strategic improvement in the game but not a boost to close combat.  We will need to wait and see if challenges are still around and how power weapons work.  I know people have been talking about assaulting out of transports but I thought that was just a rumor and not confirmed yet by GW?  

 

Will we get rules or special rules that will modify to hits in CC or for ranged combat? I'm personally thinking of negative modifiers vs bonuses to hit.  

 

It also would have been nice to see the basic IG and Berzerker profile today to get an idea of what a cheap model compared to a CC specialist would look like.  Will IG now hit on a 5 or 6 in melee to help balance out the strength of cheap high value of fire units?  In a bubble yes a Berzerker is better but you still need to get there and most of the time CC units take heavy losses before you get into combat and even if you win the first battle you still have the rest of the game.  It is much easier for a ranged unit to stay combat effective longer.

 

I'm also not sold on vehicles lasting longer.  The dread's stat line is a joke and if we see volume of fire at the same levels as 7th, vehicles will be going down fast.

 

Right now there is to many unknowns without even getting to the armies.  At this point I might as well and wait for release to get the full picture before I can jump for joy or dislike what I see.  

[d3m01iti0n]

The way this is playing out I can see myself picking up more assault style units like Sword Bros and a Command Squad. Full CC on the ground with TFC and Vindis backing them up. As it should be.

[Kastor Krieg]

I wonder how Command Points will affect Combat activations, Warlord Traits and Chapter Tactics and so on. I foresee them being a 'currency' with which you can pay for activating "skills". Let's say "CT: Black Templars": pay 3 CP to activate a unit that has already been activated in Close Combat.

RAWK.

[Acebaur]

Vehicles are going to be much better than they currently are. Why is the dreads statline a joke? What would you have it be? Remember it's got an armor save now that even a lascannon can't completely remove.

 

I imagine that power weapons are going to be handled similarly to AoS where you get a +1 to this or that stat depending what it is.

[Canadian_F_H]

That's exactly the kind of thing I don't want to see...

 

I really don't like the idea of alternating activation nor the idea of these comand points. Everything about both so far sounds like something I don't want in the game.