8th Edition: Zeal Rising

[Castellan Doren]

So other than psykers we can have everything in the codex?

[FortesMastery]

So other than psykers we can have everything in the codex?

Currently yes

[Lippy]

So I've stayed out of this thread as a lurker up to this point. All the hype was making me anxious, but alas, I am very excite!

 

Helbrecht looks as though he'll be the boss he should be, and the Emperor's Champion has stayed a hero. The cost of the champion is excellent too, so He'll be even more of a staple in fun lists than he was before, and may even find a way into competitive!

Grimaldus I never really considered him, nor a standard chaplain for that matter, but wow! I'm seriously hoping for an Armageddon supplement/campaign and a new model (not that the old one is bad, I just don't like finecast or metal really!).

 

I mentioned this little Triumvirate of Zeal (and possibly an apothecary) backing up a crusader squad with an LRC charging in ahead, to my gaming group and was quickly shut down by someone for cheesemongering. But its not even that, its the 5 units that embody the chapter, and they happen to be lethal!

I'll just get a standard Chaplain for now, and proxy him for Grimaldus against those that won't mind. Also, those servitors could be very important in a blacktide list. Psuedo Fearless is going to be important with all those break checks!

 

I'm super pleased that ultimately, a Battalion or a Brigade are CADs but under a different guise, and until all the codexes (codices, codi) drop, will be equally competitive with everyone else.

 

I am slightly disappointed that one first reading, all the factions feel very similar but I'm sure each Codex will solve that and bring the flavour back to the game.

 

 

So stoked to get some trial games in, and in a Disney kind of way, I'm real pleased to see how this new era has brought the whole community together! :D

[Lysere]

How is running our characters together cheese mongering? I mean Grimaldus is Helbrechts chaplain, and the champion probably wouldn't stray far from them either. I mean I plan on basically doing that with honor guard plus some crusaders crammed into two Lrcs.

 

Nothing cheesy about it, just one big priority target.

[Lippy]

Hell yeah! But pretty close to 1000 pts for a Triumvirate of Zeal, Crusaders, plus LRC.

Even if we up our standard limit to 2000, that's a heck of a priority target!

 

Shame about no droppod dreads, but at least they're more durable now so have a chance to get across the board.

[SWORD BROTHER RYAN]

Saw the leaked pages, and I am no longer cautious, I am content. It looks like our staple units will operate well. I'm either going to have to rebuild my Crusade back to mainly BP/CS or start getting more!

 

I don't have/use drop pods, so the limitation on Dreads isn't a big deal for me. I either lumber them across the board or take them on my Storm Raven. I may be in the minority, but that is a versatile piece of equipment. Does it still have something similar to the "Skies of Fury" rule?

 

And due to the lack of Dedicated Transports, yeah, it looks like our LRC's will be forced to take a Heavy Support slot. I just hope we can run them in multiple model units as I have 2 LRC's (well, one and one yet to be assembled) and 2 Lascannon Pred's. If it gets too crazy, I may swing over to the Rhino/Razorback rush!

 

As I do not have an exact location of the area of the galaxy my Crusade is operating in, and that my son is an UltraSmurf player, I'm not sure if Primarus will or will not make an appearance on my tabletop or not fluff-wise. I'm still not getting them (yet), but my son wants them very soon, so I'll get a good up-close look at them within the near future. I'll really make the decision to paint it black or not from there.

 

All in all, I want to jump up and down for these new rules, until I remember that we're not the only faction getting new rules. I am eager to play it though and see how my Black Templars stack up against the other armies out there. It's like a whole new game.

 

I'm ready.

[Marshal Wolfhart]

Anyone saw that "Repulsor"? I thought they had learned after the stormraven...

[AndrewChristlieb]

The stormraven does not have skys of fury that I saw. From what I've gathered it looks like flyers have to be deployed on the table now though... At least I didn't see anything in their rules or the deployment rules saying otherwise?

[BitsHammer]

Anyone saw that "Repulsor"? I thought they had learned after the stormraven...

Honestly I kind of dig it as a take on the old Grav Rhino art. It'll look good in black (but everything looks good in black) and depending on what it brings in terms of support abilities may see some actual table time.

 

Plus it doesn,t look like it's supposed to be a flyer but a very low level skimmer. Question is...does it work over water? :D

[Marshal_Roujakis]

Anyone saw that "Repulsor"? I thought they had learned after the stormraven...

Honestly I kind of dig it as a take on the old Grav Rhino art. It'll look good in black (but everything looks good in black) and depending on what it brings in terms of support abilities may see some actual table time.

Plus it doesn,t look like it's supposed to be a flyer but a very low level skimmer. Question is...does it work over water?

I don't like it, but not in regards to Aesthetics or rules, but more of because what it does to the setting... this is supposed to be a time of dire ending, where it's now even darker than those really dark days of the Horus Heresy... but here it comes... a new piece of technology (again)... except this time it's using an even rarer and more complicated technology... repulsor lift... things that you wouldn't normally find on a small platform except for cherubs and Land Speeders, and even those found in Land Speeders had to be salvaged back by the mechanicum because it was so hard to replicate... the only other race that had an abundance of this tech were the Eldar and the Necrons... and now it may seem that the Primaris Space Marines will be entering that race...

It irks me that Astartes now has an opening in regards to Grav tanks, as the Imperium is usually defined by treads, big treads and even bigger treads...

[BitsHammer]

Anyone saw that "Repulsor"? I thought they had learned after the stormraven...

Honestly I kind of dig it as a take on the old Grav Rhino art. It'll look good in black (but everything looks good in black) and depending on what it brings in terms of support abilities may see some actual table time.

Plus it doesn,t look like it's supposed to be a flyer but a very low level skimmer. Question is...does it work over water?

I don't like it, but not in regards to Aesthetics or rules, but more of because what it does to the setting... this is supposed to be a time of dire ending, where it's now even darker than those really dark days of the Horus Heresy... but here it comes... a new piece of technology (again)... except this time it's using an even rarer and more complicated technology... repulsor lift... things that you wouldn't normally find on a small platform except for cherubs and Land Speeders, and even those found in Land Speeders had to be salvaged back by the mechanicum because it was so hard to replicate... the only other race that had an abundance of this tech were the Eldar and the Necrons... and now it may seem that the Primaris Space Marines will be entering that race...

It irks me that Astartes now has an opening in regards to Grav tanks, as the Imperium is usually defined by treads, big treads and even bigger treads...

The Imperium is being lead into a second golden age and another great crusade so it can crash and burn harder than it did before.

EDIT: To be a little more serious response, considering how set in their ways the Imperium became after the loss of the Emperor and his sons, it's not really a surprise that some Scouring-era projects that were mothballed would be resumed once their sponsor showed back up.

So the Primaris Marine project is finally completed and released now that a Primarch can go "It's all good guys, it's not Heresy, I promise!" and with it comes a lot of other things that support the new Marines and their three extra squiggly bit implants.

That said, if it wasn't for how turbo-screwed the Imperium is right now such things would have been shunned immediately. Massive numbers of chapters suffered casualties in the recent events, and apparently the current ones too. Some chapters were outright lost as their homes were right in the path of the massive warp rift that tore the galaxy in twain. We have daemons and chaos showing up EVERYWHERE while Tau are popping up all over the place as their 4th (and maybe 5th) Expansion accidently use the warp rift to basically show up anywhere and everywhere. The Tyranids nearly wiped out ALL of the Sons of Baal, successors and parent chapter alike. Even the Black Templars lost an entire crusade of hundreds (if not potentially thousands) of Templars.

Basically, the only reason any of this flies in the face of strict dogma about not resurrecting old tech without an STC, or trying to improve anything (recall that the Marine combat knife only got better because they found an STC for it, not because someone figured out metallurgy on their own to improve it). Cawl may be a walking repository of lost tech, but since that tech was lost (likely in the civil war on Mars during the Heresy) and those STCs don't exist anymore, it would normally be heresy to do what he's currently doing for the Imperium.

Such progress without restraint, regardless of the source, basically serves as a way to escalate tensions internal to the Imperium, give cause to have Imperial factions fighting each other as tensions rise and potentially set us up for a civil war as those who refuse to bend from their blind dogmatic adherence to the Codex (which was supposed to be a living tactical document, not the largely incomplete thing that some people worship with such fervor that a Sister would blush) and refuse to bring back old technology without specific blueprints telling you how to tighten the screws properly, clash with Guilliman and his ancient viewpoint of the Imperium being an organization of progress instead of blind regression.

It has a ton of potential for a great story but I have a feeling people look past that and go "NO PROGRESS IN MAH IMPERIUM!". Which, while in character for the setting as a whole, doesn't fit the sort of mentality the Templars should have in my opinion.

The Great Crusade was about bringing the Imperial Truth to the teeming masses of humanity and uplifting them from their blind ignorance. As the ONLY CHAPTER that has upheld the tenants of that time, the Templars should be the first in line to accept a Great Crusade mentality of progress for humanity instead of blind regression. Sure a Smurf was responsible for it, but "NO PITY, NO REMORSE, NO FEAR!" never said anything about "NO PROGRESS!".

Anything that enables the Great Crusade to resume as it should is something the Templars should be embracing, not shunning like we're one of the backwards lesser chapters who are too embroiled in their secrets or heretical mutant brethren.

Basically, if it crusades like a Templar, fights like a Templar, kills like a Templar and has the ZEAL of a Templar, it's a bloody Templar and I'll welcome it in my Crusade.

Unless said thing is a lost Ork who has been convinced he's a Templar. Then I'm flushing him out of an airlock after tying him to an Exterminatus round.

[BitsHammer]

Someone fixed the colors for the new tank over on Dakka:

 

 

As usual, Templar black fixes everything. :D

[Marshal_Roujakis]

Anyone saw that "Repulsor"? I thought they had learned after the stormraven...

Honestly I kind of dig it as a take on the old Grav Rhino art. It'll look good in black (but everything looks good in black) and depending on what it brings in terms of support abilities may see some actual table time.

Plus it doesn,t look like it's supposed to be a flyer but a very low level skimmer. Question is...does it work over water?

I don't like it, but not in regards to Aesthetics or rules, but more of because what it does to the setting... this is supposed to be a time of dire ending, where it's now even darker than those really dark days of the Horus Heresy... but here it comes... a new piece of technology (again)... except this time it's using an even rarer and more complicated technology... repulsor lift... things that you wouldn't normally find on a small platform except for cherubs and Land Speeders, and even those found in Land Speeders had to be salvaged back by the mechanicum because it was so hard to replicate... the only other race that had an abundance of this tech were the Eldar and the Necrons... and now it may seem that the Primaris Space Marines will be entering that race...

It irks me that Astartes now has an opening in regards to Grav tanks, as the Imperium is usually defined by treads, big treads and even bigger treads...

The Imperium is being lead into a second golden age and another great crusade so it can crash and burn harder than it did before.

EDIT: To be a little more serious response, considering how set in their ways the Imperium became after the loss of the Emperor and his sons, it's not really a surprise that some Scouring-era projects that were mothballed would be resumed once their sponsor showed back up.

So the Primaris Marine project is finally completed and released now that a Primarch can go "It's all good guys, it's not Heresy, I promise!" and with it comes a lot of other things that support the new Marines and their three extra squiggly bit implants.

That said, if it wasn't for how turbo-screwed the Imperium is right now such things would have been shunned immediately. Massive numbers of chapters suffered casualties in the recent events, and apparently the current ones too. Some chapters were outright lost as their homes were right in the path of the massive warp rift that tore the galaxy in twain. We have daemons and chaos showing up EVERYWHERE while Tau are popping up all over the place as their 4th (and maybe 5th) Expansion accidently use the warp rift to basically show up anywhere and everywhere. The Tyranids nearly wiped out ALL of the Sons of Baal, successors and parent chapter alike. Even the Black Templars lost an entire crusade of hundreds (if not potentially thousands) of Templars.

Basically, the only reason any of this flies in the face of strict dogma about not resurrecting old tech without an STC, or trying to improve anything (recall that the Marine combat knife only got better because they found an STC for it, not because someone figured out metallurgy on their own to improve it). Cawl may be a walking repository of lost tech, but since that tech was lost (likely in the civil war on Mars during the Heresy) and those STCs don't exist anymore, it would normally be heresy to do what he's currently doing for the Imperium.

Such progress without restraint, regardless of the source, basically serves as a way to escalate tensions internal to the Imperium, give cause to have Imperial factions fighting each other as tensions rise and potentially set us up for a civil war as those who refuse to bend from their blind dogmatic adherence to the Codex (which was supposed to be a living tactical document, not the largely incomplete thing that some people worship with such fervor that a Sister would blush) and refuse to bring back old technology without specific blueprints telling you how to tighten the screws properly, clash with Guilliman and his ancient viewpoint of the Imperium being an organization of progress instead of blind regression.

It has a ton of potential for a great story but I have a feeling people look past that and go "NO PROGRESS IN MAH IMPERIUM!". Which, while in character for the setting as a whole, doesn't fit the sort of mentality the Templars should have in my opinion.

The Great Crusade was about bringing the Imperial Truth to the teeming masses of humanity and uplifting them from their blind ignorance. As the ONLY CHAPTER that has upheld the tenants of that time, the Templars should be the first in line to accept a Great Crusade mentality of progress for humanity instead of blind regression. Sure a Smurf was responsible for it, but "NO PITY, NO REMORSE, NO FEAR!" never said anything about "NO PROGRESS!".

Anything that enables the Great Crusade to resume as it should is something the Templars should be embracing, not shunning like we're one of the backwards lesser chapters who are too embroiled in their secrets or heretical mutant brethren.

Basically, if it crusades like a Templar, fights like a Templar, kills like a Templar and has the ZEAL of a Templar, it's a bloody Templar and I'll welcome it in my Crusade.

Unless said thing is a lost Ork who has been convinced he's a Templar. Then I'm flushing him out of an airlock after tying him to an Exterminatus round.

See, that's the real big difference though... personally, I can't really consider the Primaris as Templars yet... they are vat-grown, indoctrinated by Guilliman-warfare, introduced to the Imperium as servants not of the Emperor of man but as soldiers of Cawl AND Guilliman... if they were asked who is their master, undoubtedly they would reply with: FOR THE LORD COMMANDER! instead of the reassuring FOR THE EMPEROR!

it's not loyal... it actually resounds with the premonition of a start of a second Horus Heresy.... it'll be the Guilli-Heresy... and he'll have the Primaris infiltrate every aspect of the Adeptus Astartes with better equipment, better soldiers and entire Chapters of the Guilli-Marines would be at his beck and call... it may not come to pass due to Guilliman's "loyalty" to the Emperor, but we've all seen the extent to that when he created an Imperium Secundus during the events of the Horus Heresy... what's to say that it can't happen again? That he won't see that the Imperium is a burning house and that there is no better time to bail... it may happen again...

And as a Templar, I embrace the step forward, but as a fan of W40k in general, I don't approve of Astartes moving a step too far forward... that Grav-Tank reeks of Advance Science and lack of Grim-Dark and Imperial Technology... even the Mechanicum doesn't have Grav Tanks and now the gosh-darn Primaris, poster boys of the great Guilliman is now getting one? Why can't the Custodes get one first? or the Mechanicum... why is it that the brand new faction, that is not even supposed to be battle-trained yet, is yet getting more newer and better toys... it just doesn't seem right...

Astartes just seems EXTREMELY traditional... they seem to prefer to their stuck up old ways... and if anything... Templar tanks usually scream moderna warfare, but this new Primaris tank, and the Primaris in general, just screams Star Wars to me...

[AndrewChristlieb]

I bet that turret will look good on a "counts as" Prediator hull though for anyone who doesn't like the fluff change. Personally I like it, but I don't think I want to add any Primaris to my Templars. I wonder how it'll look in gold though... #makeCelestialLionsgreatagain.

[BitsHammer]

 

Basically, if it crusades like a Templar, fights like a Templar, kills like a Templar and has the ZEAL of a Templar, it's a bloody Templar and I'll welcome it in my Crusade.

 

Unless said thing is a lost Ork who has been convinced he's a Templar. Then I'm flushing him out of an airlock after tying him to an Exterminatus round.

 

See, that's the real big difference though... personally, I can't really consider the Primaris as Templars yet... they are vat-grown, indoctrinated by Guilliman-warfare, introduced to the Imperium as servants not of the Emperor of man but as soldiers of Cawl AND Guilliman... if they were asked who is their master, undoubtedly they would reply with: FOR THE LORD COMMANDER! instead of the reassuring FOR THE EMPEROR!

 

I'm going to have to point at the fact that we can apparently "grow our own" since Guilliman mass released how to do it to every chapter. We didn't have to accept "vat grown" (assuming cloning was even used) since we can create a crusade of our own.

 

And I don't agree that they would reply that way. It reeks more of blind paranoia to make assumptions that those who share the Templar geneseed, the VERY SONS OF DORN would bow to another Primarch out of anything more than respect for his rank and position.

 

 

 

it's not loyal... it actually resounds with the premonition of a start of a second Horus Heresy.... it'll be the Guilli-Heresy... and he'll have the Primaris infiltrate every aspect of the Adeptus Astartes with better equipment, better soldiers and entire Chapters of the Guilli-Marines would be at his beck and call... it may not come to pass due to Guilliman's "loyalty" to the Emperor, but we've all seen the extent to that when he created an Imperium Secundus during the events of the Horus Heresy... what's to say that it can't happen again? That he won't see that the Imperium is a burning house and that there is no better time to bail... it may happen again...

Guilliman isn't the kind of personality who gives Chaos something to work with. If he was the plan would have been to choose him instead of Daddy-Abandonment-Issues Horus. He's bland as pudding on paper, but that's why he's a good statesman and a poor choice for Chaos. He's the embodiment of the Emperor's tactical and political prowess. He knows the Imperium can't survive by blindly groping about in the dark for a lucky break through an STC, but rather by making steps forward. He's not the sort who can just do these things on his own, hence why he employed Cawl who was able to survive long enough to make it possible, but having a vision forward makes sense.

 

 

 

And as a Templar, I embrace the step forward, but as a fan of W40k in general, I don't approve of Astartes moving a step too far forward... that Grav-Tank reeks of Advance Science and lack of Grim-Dark and Imperial Technology... even the Mechanicum doesn't have Grav Tanks and now the gosh-darn Primaris, poster boys of the great Guilliman is now getting one? Why can't the Custodes get one first? or the Mechanicum... why is it that the brand new faction, that is not even supposed to be battle-trained yet, is yet getting more newer and better toys... it just doesn't seem right...

Marines always get toys first because that's what the game is based on. Everyone else is a side dish.

 

 

Astartes just seems EXTREMELY traditional... they seem to prefer to their stuck up old ways... and if anything... Templar tanks usually scream moderna warfare, but this new Primaris tank, and the Primaris in general, just screams Star Wars to me...

It screams "pre-Heresy" to me. Perhaps even digging into before the Age of Darkness.

 

I mean if Cawl can manage to reverse engineer the Space Marine geneseed enough to figure out how to add three new squiggly bits to them and make them even tougher than before, I think he can reverse engineer one of these:

http://i.imgur.com/XDEiHdN.jpg

 

and put it on a Land Raider chassis.

 

If anything I actually want to point out that if anyone is a potential for being a Chaos loving heretic it's Cawl. He loves to tinker, design and improve things to an extent one could almost argue that he does it blindly. He makes deals with Xenos and if he understands the geneseed technology enough he may even understand the sort of dark pacts the Emperor used to make the Primarchs possible.

 

Basically I don't think we need to worry about Guilliman as much as we do the 10,000 year old Arch Magos who likely would sell his own mother for knowledge.

 

I'd love to see Cawl pull a Horus on the Imperium and take all his new toys to Chaos and really screw the Imperium over as the Imperium loses the ability to make new tanks and bolters following his designs, while he sells his wares to the Traitors and moves Chaos from being locked into "ancient tech even if they raid Imperial worlds, armies, chapters and are even made of Renegades" into a threat that is potentially better equipped than the Imperium itself.

[Gendo]

Hail Brothers!

 

Been lost in the warp for a while...

 

I take it that a Crusader Squad it's about the same cost, LRC and Predator are more durable and effective, TFC way cheaper, also our IC are Cheaper.

 

But no dedicated transport? Are LRC viable now?

 

Also think the EC is weaker now without the challenge rules?

[BitsHammer]

Hail Brothers!

 

Been lost in the warp for a while...

 

I take it that a Crusader Squad it's about the same cost, LRC and Predator are more durable and effective, TFC way cheaper, also our IC are Cheaper.

 

But no dedicated transport? Are LRC viable now?

 

Also think the EC is weaker now without the challenge rules?

You may want to look at the actual rules that leaked.

 

So Crusader Squads are about the same if you run just Neophytes and Initiates due to base Marine cost dropping a point and Neophytes going up to 11ppm. BUT Sword Brethren are now free upgrades and don't limit you from running a proper sized unit with equal amounts of Carapace and Power armour.

 

All of the vehicles are a LOT more expensive, so be ready for that.

 

LRC are viable, but since we lack CT at the moment, expect them to be HS instead of DT.

 

And EC can't challenge (or be challenged), but they can still murder the heck out of Characters and put up a fight against Monsters too (Black Sword re-rolls wounds against both, and the EC rerolls hits against Characters). You can split and allocate attacks as you want so he's got the ability to get the job done despite the loss of challenges.

[Gendo]

 

Hail Brothers!

 

Been lost in the warp for a while...

 

I take it that a Crusader Squad it's about the same cost, LRC and Predator are more durable and effective, TFC way cheaper, also our IC are Cheaper.

 

But no dedicated transport? Are LRC viable now?

 

Also think the EC is weaker now without the challenge rules?

You may want to look at the actual rules that leaked.

 

So Crusader Squads are about the same if you run just Neophytes and Initiates due to base Marine cost dropping a point and Neophytes going up to 11ppm. BUT Sword Brethren are now free upgrades and don't limit you from running a proper sized unit with equal amounts of Carapace and Power armour.

 

All of the vehicles are a LOT more expensive, so be ready for that.

 

LRC are viable, but since we lack CT at the moment, expect them to be HS instead of DT.

 

And EC can't challenge (or be challenged), but they can still murder the heck out of Characters and put up a fight against Monsters too (Black Sword re-rolls wounds against both, and the EC rerolls hits against Characters). You can split and allocate attacks as you want so he's got the ability to get the job done despite the loss of challenges.

 

 

The LRC it's 244pt, am I missing something?

[BitsHammer]

 

 

Hail Brothers!

 

Been lost in the warp for a while...

 

I take it that a Crusader Squad it's about the same cost, LRC and Predator are more durable and effective, TFC way cheaper, also our IC are Cheaper.

 

But no dedicated transport? Are LRC viable now?

 

Also think the EC is weaker now without the challenge rules?

You may want to look at the actual rules that leaked.

 

So Crusader Squads are about the same if you run just Neophytes and Initiates due to base Marine cost dropping a point and Neophytes going up to 11ppm. BUT Sword Brethren are now free upgrades and don't limit you from running a proper sized unit with equal amounts of Carapace and Power armour.

 

All of the vehicles are a LOT more expensive, so be ready for that.

 

LRC are viable, but since we lack CT at the moment, expect them to be HS instead of DT.

 

And EC can't challenge (or be challenged), but they can still murder the heck out of Characters and put up a fight against Monsters too (Black Sword re-rolls wounds against both, and the EC rerolls hits against Characters). You can split and allocate attacks as you want so he's got the ability to get the job done despite the loss of challenges.

 

 

The LRC it's 244pt, am I missing something?

 

You have to pay for wargear.

[AndrewChristlieb]

Basic lrc with a multi melta is 314 now.

[Gendo]

Basic lrc with a multi melta is 314 now.

Wonder how much a Spartan will be.

[Firepower]

300.

 

...couldn't resist

[Slackmaster]

I can see myself using lots of Apothacaries and Techmarines! Nice to see that we can take Whirlwinds again, mine needs some considerable dusting off...

[Acebaur]

Just noticed that Ironclad assault launchers seem to be free. They are not listed in the wargear points section.  Also an Ironclad has taken a pretty steep price hike which I'm not sure is justified over the standard dread. 

[Firepower]

How much does an Ironclad with TL Flamers cost? And considering how DP assault is now off the table, it looks like Hurricane IC may have some use for once.