The implications of Guillimans return for the Imperium.

[Guest]

well, from the Rumors, IF russ is actually a WUlfen now, I could see loyal primarchs refusing to work with him. 

 

We all have our secrets... Russ is still going to be loyal... Pitting the imperium against the Wolves again is poor writing, Warzone Fenris did enough damage.

[Urriak Urruk]

Its tough, because the 'history' is not set yet. We dont know their states of mind at the end of the HH. Maybe there is reason for them to come to blows? To pick sides? Maybe Khan comes riding out of the Webway, pulls a wheelie, and says 'Scars, this lets go!' and starts ripping up the edges of the Universe?

Maybe Lion comes back, looks at all the bull his son's have pulled over 10K years of shame, and flips out?

Maybe Rob, in his review of the history of the Imperium, puts 1 and 1 and 1 (to infinity) together and sees that the DA are not QUITE as loyal as some may think? Maybe he see's that the Blood Angels are 1 step from damnation and that the Wolves, well who knows how they are meant to be right now, I think GW thinks they lost more than they did, or didnt communicate Wrath of Magnus well.

Point is, we dont know yet enough imo to say what's even happened, let alone extrapolate that forward.

To me? It makes more sense to the setting as it stands in theme and tenor TODAY, to have the Primarchs at odds.

I don't know, although the loyalist Primarchs clearly had a lot of tension between them during the Heresy, they all recognized the crisis was so huge they all needed to work together.

I feel like that concept still holds if Chaos is really back with a vengeance, and if the Tyranids/Orks/Necrons ever get their stuff together. Any loyalist would return, think "I don't like how this Imperium turned out, but if it dies humanity's essentially doomed." I'm not sure any of the Primarchs are really going to have the ability to attack each other if the Imperium is on the verge of collapse.

Unless one of them returns and is insane, which is definitely possible (Khan, Corax, maybe Vulkan). Then all bets are off.

[KBA]

Things that I think are more plausible seeing how RG has returned.

 

No primarch will return unchanged. In RG, we had a primarch frozen in time, and he comes out of things revived through Xenos Voodoo and held together by new life support armor with a brand new panoply of war. Who knows if his psyche has changed in the rebirth. If anyone stood the chance of coming back pretty much the same as his 30k self, it was RG. A different route was taken and I expect it to have major implications going forward. High possibilities for me now are:

 

- Russ will return as Wolf-Man.

 

- Lion will go renegade due to state of the Imperium.

 

- Khan will come back insane from 10,000 years of imprisonment.

 

- Sanguinuis will return as a 'daemon' of the Emperor and lead the ecclesiarchy, bridge the gap for his brothers to accept the church.

 

- Ferrus remains dead. I feel like the Mechanicum reviving primarch thing was used up with Cawl on RG

 

- Dorn remains dead. Lots of moving pieces here with what's established, what's returned, and what will or can return. Best to keep him dead.

 

- Corax returns as a mysterious stranger type. Hitting from the shadows, no one knowing who or what he is.

 

- Vulkan Lives. Starts a mission to kill the emperor in order to revive him. A positive force racing to Terra to beat Chaos to the punch.

 

But who knows ;)

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

 

That is also why he got a watch pack as well. Not to mention the obvious mutation both with primarch and legion. Sanguinius trick of looking divine maybe worked on lesser beings but not on such as the Emperor and Malcador.

 

 

 

I have not read that one was sent to keep an eye over any other primarch.

Sorry, but you don't seem to know the history behind the Watch Packs. Neither Gulliman or Sanguinius were singled out here. Malcador sends packs to every remaining 'loyal' Primarch after the word gets out about Horus and the first 4 Traitor Legions. Hell, even Dorn on Terra got one, as did Curze. Granted, we don't currently know the stories of all 12 Packs, but they were certainly sent.

[Demigod]

See my issue is I can see a Primarchs and the Emperors vision vs the Imperium and the HLoT...

 

But this battle royal that x Primarch is automatically going to go rogue or renegade seems silly. 

 

Lion going renegade dumps on all the sacrifices the DA have made in 10k years that's why I don't like the idea of this happening.

 

I can't see why Guilliman would not work with the rest of his brothers to restore the Imperium, Especially Dorn, Lion, Russ and Vulkan. 

 

But I don't think that the Primarchs vision of what the Imperium should look like nor how the changes should be implemented is even close. 

 

As for someone going rogue,well there are  only so many options how the plot could  develop. It is either someone goes renegade,a bunch of them die at the second battle for Terra or there is a civil war which will just be HH 2.0 ,they freeze the plot advance before the battle of Terra and there is a similar situation like the 13th crusade for the next 5-10 years,or they just have battles without any impact or plot advancement between the loyal primarchs and traitor primarchs for the next 5-10 years.

 

As for why the Lion would renegade. Well either him or Guilliman would be the only ones who going renegade would have an impact. Russ,Corax,Vulkan and Khan would have from 2-10k marines and known home worlds that could be easily attacked.There is no impact that they could have if they go renegade. Guilliman would have the most impact,with Lion being second. . If Guilliman had not awoken first I would have said that either of them could still go renegade but with Guilliman coming first and going directly to Terra ,Lion is a pretty sure bet.

 

And let us not forget , Guilliman was alive for 100+ years after the HH ,most of how the imperium is organized comes from him. He split the legions into chapters ( some were forced to do so )  but somehow for 10k years Ultramarines seem to be the only ones that get new chapters. When the others come back they will find Guilliman with a Legion surpassing even the ones from 30k ruling  Terra and trying to "make it work" with institutions they would never accept. I don't see them getting along.

 

 

 

 

 

 

That is also why he got a watch pack as well. Not to mention the obvious mutation both with primarch and legion. Sanguinius trick of looking divine maybe worked on lesser beings but not on such as the Emperor and Malcador.

 

 

 

I have not read that one was sent to keep an eye over any other primarch.

Sorry, but you don't seem to know the history behind the Watch Packs. Neither Gulliman or Sanguinius were singled out here. Malcador sends packs to every remaining 'loyal' Primarch after the word gets out about Horus and the first 4 Traitor Legions. Hell, even Dorn on Terra got one, as did Curze. Granted, we don't currently know the stories of all 12 Packs, but they were certainly sent.

 

 

 

Well I can't remember everything correctly I thought that only Guilliman got a SW guard to keep an eye on him ,but Curze was declared renegade even before the HH started. There is no way they would consider him loyal.

 

 

 

Edited February 4, 2017 by Demigod

[Guest]

The Emperor was forced to recall Curze for his and his Legions behaviour in the Crusade,  declaring him a renegade didn't get to happen as he threw his lot in with Horus before answering for his crimes. You really seem to have half the story at times :(

 

Again if I have missed something I will be happy to correct myself.

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

 

 

 

That is also why he got a watch pack as well. Not to mention the obvious mutation both with primarch and legion. Sanguinius trick of looking divine maybe worked on lesser beings but not on such as the Emperor and Malcador.

 

 

 

I have not read that one was sent to keep an eye over any other primarch.

Sorry, but you don't seem to know the history behind the Watch Packs. Neither Gulliman or Sanguinius were singled out here. Malcador sends packs to every remaining 'loyal' Primarch after the word gets out about Horus and the first 4 Traitor Legions. Hell, even Dorn on Terra got one, as did Curze. Granted, we don't currently know the stories of all 12 Packs, but they were certainly sent.

 

 

 

Well I can't remember everything correctly I thought that only Guilliman got a SW guard to keep an eye on him ,but Curze was declared renegade even before the HH started. There is no way they would consider him loyal.

 

 

I'm afraid not. The NLs weren't officially declared renegade (although there was some enthusiasm for the idea), if they had been, it would've been incredibly suspicious when they turned up for Istvaan V, and the loyalists would probably have turned them down rather than including them in the battle plan. And Curze most definitely did get a Watch Pack, it just didn't end well for the Wolves (The Watcher audio drama contains the story, I believe).

[Demigod]

The Emperor was forced to recall Curze for his and his Legions behaviour in the Crusade, declaring him a renegade didn't get to happen as he threw his lot in with Horus before answering for his crimes. You really seem to have half the story at times

Again if I have missed something I will be happy to correct myself.

As I remembered it after his incident with Dorn he was declared renegade and was ordered to go back to Terra or be brought back. I can't remember everything correctly. I don't even know how we got from everyone sharing their ideas on how the plot will progress to who knows about the lore more.

Edited February 4, 2017 by Demigod

[Ascanius]

From what I've read on the leaked White Dwarf, Guilliman was awakened because Macragge itself was besieged by Chaos (which I found odd, isn't Terra closer to the Eye than Macragge?)

 

Wayyyyyy closer, indeed.

 

However, Fall of Cadia established that the Cadian pylons were not unique, but part of a galaxy-wide network that strengthened the membrane between real space and the Warp.

 

As an analogy, imagine several compounds in a deep wilderness protected by high electrified fences. There are no deliberate gates in the fences, just places where the wire has corroded away to leave a hole, or where trees have fallen and bowed the fence down enough that you can clamber across. Some of these holes in the fence are frankly enormous, too. The people living in the compounds can't repair the fence, so all they can do is station guards at these locations and really heavily fortify the biggest breaches. There are established paths from these gaps in the fence to other compounds elsewhere; they're not safe, but using a cleared path is safer than striking off on your own heading.

 

If you're a bandit lurking in the wilderness and planning to attack one of the compounds, it's possible to cross the fence where no breach exists and no guards have been stationed, but it's difficult and dangerous. First, the fence is electrified and that much more difficult to climb over. You might also be waylaid by hungry predators on your way, for instance, or you might think you can climb a tree and get across only to discover it's rotten inside and collapses when only some of your group has made it inside. That's why, even though they're guarded, bandits usually launched their raids through one of the established breaches in the fence. Since the biggest breaches allow a lot more attackers through, the bandits like to make camp close to those places, making them basically useless to the people inside the compounds as a route out.

 

So, the compounds are systems in real space, the wilderness is the Warp, and the fence is the membrane between the two. Warp transit points are the breaches in the fence, and stable Warp routes are the known paths between compounds. The biggest and most heavily guarded breaches are places like the Maelstrom and the Eye of Terror, of course. The bandits are Chaos traitors and renegades, and the predators are the various creatures of the Warp (daemons and otherwise).

 

The revelation in Fall of Cadia is that the pylons on Cadia were (in this analogy) the last of a number of power generators responsible for electrifying the fences. One generator was enough to keep the whole network energised - but some of Abbadon's previous Black Crusades had been aimed at destroying other pylon installations on other worlds across the galaxy. The Cadian pylons were the last to fall because, being located near the biggest breach of them all, that last generator was naturally the most heavily guarded even though the guards didn't realise its importance.

 

So, no-one in the compounds realised that the strange machines the bandits had set on fire during some of their raids were important, because just as they don't know how to repair the fences they didn't realise the connection between the electrification of the fence and these machines - partially because the power was still on with only one of them running.

 

Now, though, the last generator is gone, and the fence is no longer electrified. The wilderness is still dangerous, but it's a lot easier for the bandits to climb a fence and launch an attack from an unexpected quarter where no guards are stationed.

 

That's what happens at Macragge. The heart of Ultramar was considered safe because there were plenty of fortress worlds and fleets guarding the known routes - but now the pylons are no longer active, it's much easier for Chaos to come from the Warp to real space anywhere they want. They no longer have to rely on existing breaches to get through in force.

 

The Warhammer TV guys, Rob and Eddie, mentioned on the Twitch live stream that it's a Black Legion-led invasion fleet that emerges in the heart of Ultramar and starts wrecking the place. I assume from the article photographs that the Thousand Sons are part of the fleet.

[Sheesh Mode]

 

From what I've read on the leaked White Dwarf, Guilliman was awakened because Macragge itself was besieged by Chaos (which I found odd, isn't Terra closer to the Eye than Macragge?)

 

Wayyyyyy closer, indeed.

 

However, Fall of Cadia established that the Cadian pylons were not unique, but part of a galaxy-wide network that strengthened the membrane between real space and the Warp.

 

As an analogy, imagine several compounds in a deep wilderness protected by high electrified fences. There are no deliberate gates in the fences, just places where the wire has corroded away to leave a hole, or where trees have fallen and bowed the fence down enough that you can clamber across. Some of these holes in the fence are frankly enormous, too. The people living in the compounds can't repair the fence, so all they can do is station guards at these locations and really heavily fortify the biggest breaches. There are established paths from these gaps in the fence to other compounds elsewhere; they're not safe, but using a cleared path is safer than striking off on your own heading.

 

If you're a bandit lurking in the wilderness and planning to attack one of the compounds, it's possible to cross the fence where no breach exists and no guards have been stationed, but it's difficult and dangerous. First, the fence is electrified and that much more difficult to climb over. You might also be waylaid by hungry predators on your way, for instance, or you might think you can climb a tree and get across only to discover it's rotten inside and collapses when only some of your group has made it inside. That's why, even though they're guarded, bandits usually launched their raids through one of the established breaches in the fence. Since the biggest breaches allow a lot more attackers through, the bandits like to make camp close to those places, making them basically useless to the people inside the compounds as a route out.

 

So, the compounds are systems in real space, the wilderness is the Warp, and the fence is the membrane between the two. Warp transit points are the breaches in the fence, and stable Warp routes are the known paths between compounds. The biggest and most heavily guarded breaches are places like the Maelstrom and the Eye of Terror, of course. The bandits are Chaos traitors and renegades, and the predators are the various creatures of the Warp (daemons and otherwise).

 

The revelation in Fall of Cadia is that the pylons on Cadia were (in this analogy) the last of a number of power generators responsible for electrifying the fences. One generator was enough to keep the whole network energised - but some of Abbadon's previous Black Crusades had been aimed at destroying other pylon installations on other worlds across the galaxy. The Cadian pylons were the last to fall because, being located near the biggest breach of them all, that last generator was naturally the most heavily guarded even though the guards didn't realise its importance.

 

So, no-one in the compounds realised that the strange machines the bandits had set on fire during some of their raids were important, because just as they don't know how to repair the fences they didn't realise the connection between the electrification of the fence and these machines - partially because the power was still on with only one of them running.

 

Now, though, the last generator is gone, and the fence is no longer electrified. The wilderness is still dangerous, but it's a lot easier for the bandits to climb a fence and launch an attack from an unexpected quarter where no guards are stationed.

 

That's what happens at Macragge. The heart of Ultramar was considered safe because there were plenty of fortress worlds and fleets guarding the known routes - but now the pylons are no longer active, it's much easier for Chaos to come from the Warp to real space anywhere they want. They no longer have to rely on existing breaches to get through in force.

 

The Warhammer TV guys, Rob and Eddie, mentioned on the Twitch live stream that it's a Black Legion-led invasion fleet that emerges in the heart of Ultramar and starts wrecking the place. I assume from the article photographs that the Thousand Sons are part of the fleet.

 

That's a fantastic analogy. Thank you.

[Demonl]

I'd like to see them bring back a redeemed Horus for the Imperium and for him to be warmaster again and slap down Abaddon.

[Guest]

With regards to the Legions... I think its possible he would just renew them all... 

[Urriak Urruk]

Huh. I guess that makes sense...

 

So Chaos can now attack anywhere in the galaxy with near impunity?

 

Humanity is so screwed....

[Cryptix]

Huh. I guess that makes sense...

 

So Chaos can now attack anywhere in the galaxy with near impunity?

 

Everyone is so screwed....

FTFY.

[Demigod]

About the pylons

 

It is specified that the area where the light of the astronomicon meats with the edges of the Eye of Terror the warp there was unstable and  inhabited by daemons that would attack all sides. This was in fact the reason why Abadon needed to take Cadia because it was the only region trough where a space fleet big enough to threaten the Imperium could pass trough. There were other routes as well but they were all limited and quite dangerous.  How does the destruction of Cadia help Abadon ? He should be trapped inside the Eye of Terror.

 

As I understood the reason why Chaos was not attacking across the entire galaxy was because they could not make Warp jumps out of the Eye of Terror directly they needed to get pass the Cadian gate and then they could launch their fleets. I see no reason why Cadia falling should enable CSM to launch an attack on Maccrage faster than it takes the Eldar to reach it trough a Webway gate.

Edited February 5, 2017 by Demigod

[Claws and Effect]

I can see Corax going renegade, but not falling to Chaos.

 

While he was gone the Imperium has morphed into almost exactly the kind of society he spent his early years fighting against.

 

How that would be affected by his and Guilliman's mutual respect for each other would be interesting to see.

[Leif Bearclaw]

About the pylons

 

It is specified that the area where the light of the astronomicon meats with the edges of the Eye of Terror the warp there was unstable and  inhabited by daemons that would attack all sides. This was in fact the reason why Abadon needed to take Cadia because it was the only region trough where a space fleet big enough to threaten the Imperium could pass trough. There were other routes as well but they were all limited and quite dangerous.  How does the destruction of Cadia help Abadon ? He should be trapped inside the Eye of Terror.

 

As I understood the reason why Chaos was not attacking across the entire galaxy was because they could not make Warp jumps out of the Eye of Terror directly they needed to get pass the Cadian gate and then they could launch their fleets. I see no reason why Cadia falling should enable CSM to launch an attack on Maccrage faster than it takes the Eldar to reach it trough a Webway gate.

Because it appears they've completely retconned and ignored everyting about the pylons, EoT and Cadian Gate. So instead of Cadia being the only stable route out of the Eye, it's pylons were the only thing stopping Chaos going wherever the hell they want.

 

It's stupid, but they had to find some way of making Abby's 'Crimson Path' plan not inherently self defeating.

 

That said, with the retcon that the 12 previous BCs were all about pylons, is it addressed why Abby didn't wreck Cadia during the 1st? As, unless that's been retconned too, Cadia was only fortified into the Gate once the 1st Black Crusade proved to the Imperium the Traitor Legions were still a viable threat (iirc).

[Space Truckin]

Implications?

These releases feel so rushed to me that this will be filled in much later as another 'retcon' or 're-retcon'  at this point.

 

Really feels like they are just getting all of this 'story' stuff out of the way to reboot for 8th.

[Arkangilos]

Unless of course it isn't rushed and they have been working on them for at least a year like they usually do?

[Sugarlessllama]

Guilliman returning I think is going to cause a major shake up in the Imperium. First off, the Imperial Cult is now a full arm of the government. I mean, Lorgar wrote that bible. I don't think RG is going to take the fact that the Word Bearers ideology is now the official religion of the Imperium, and that science has taken a back seat to the occult. I don't think he is going to like it one bit.

 

I think there is going to be a return of the Imperial Truth. And the return of this core philosophy is going to be rocky to say the least.

 

I also think that the Lion is going to make his come back, and I think he is going to go Renegade. In one of the Dark Angels novels the idea that the Lion had fallen to chaos was brought up. The argument being.... why did the Lion arrive at Terra AFTER the Siege was completed? The was no reason for this to occur. He had plenty of notice that Horus and Co was on their way, and he had little resistance. But he went there very slowly. The argument presented was that his slow arrival was intentional, so that he could see who the victor was and join the winning team. And that he needed to purge his own legion of anyone that knew that he was waiting for the dust to settle. To me, this makes a lot of sense. So I would not be surprised that something akin to this train of thought is what allows for the Lion and all of the Dark Angels to go rogue.

 

On a side note, you the Dark Angels codex is no longer available of the GW website. Take that for what you will.

[Space Truckin]

Unless of course it isn't rushed and they have been working on them for at least a year like they usually do?

 

Sorry I just don't feel like 1 month RELEASE  is enough to explore the return of a Primarch that's been asleep for 10,000 years.

But hey that's just me...as I stated in my post it is just my opinion.

 

edit:  i could care less how long "they may" have worked on the storyline.   The result still feels like a half cooked story to me. 

Edited February 6, 2017 by Space Truckin

[Demigod]

Guilliman returning I think is going to cause a major shake up in the Imperium. First off, the Imperial Cult is now a full arm of the government. I mean, Lorgar wrote that bible. I don't think RG is going to take the fact that the Word Bearers ideology is now the official religion of the Imperium, and that science has taken a back seat to the occult. I don't think he is going to like it one bit.

 

I think there is going to be a return of the Imperial Truth. And the return of this core philosophy is going to be rocky to say the least.

 

I also think that the Lion is going to make his come back, and I think he is going to go Renegade. In one of the Dark Angels novels the idea that the Lion had fallen to chaos was brought up. The argument being.... why did the Lion arrive at Terra AFTER the Siege was completed? The was no reason for this to occur. He had plenty of notice that Horus and Co was on their way, and he had little resistance. But he went there very slowly. The argument presented was that his slow arrival was intentional, so that he could see who the victor was and join the winning team. And that he needed to purge his own legion of anyone that knew that he was waiting for the dust to settle. To me, this makes a lot of sense. So I would not be surprised that something akin to this train of thought is what allows for the Lion and all of the Dark Angels to go rogue.

 

On a side note, you the Dark Angels codex is no longer available of the GW website. Take that for what you will.

 

Before the HH heresy began Lion and the DA were sent on the edges of the Imperium so to not interfere. After Istvaan the NL and Konrad specifically went to delay the DA. After that there were war storms that prevented everyone to move towards Terra. And then when he could move towards Terra he met Russ and he insisted that they fight every traitor along the way to Terra. 

 

The Lion believed in the Emperors ideas of going forward instead of stagnating + he has the Watchers which make it impossible for him to fall to Chaos. Lion going renegade in 40K is just a meme it could not have happened because there is no motive. Lion going renegade in 30k is possible because the Emperor is gone and the imperium does not represent anything that he had fought for.

 

I don't understand Sanguinius almost sold his sold to the chaos gods yet people accuse Lion as being a traitor.

 

 

 

Unless of course it isn't rushed and they have been working on them for at least a year like they usually do?

 

Sorry I just don't feel like 1 month RELEASE  is enough to explore the return of a Primarch that's been asleep for 10,000 years.

But hey that's just me...as I stated in my post it is just my opinion.

 

edit:  i could care less how long "they may" have worked on the storyline.   The result still feels like a half cooked story to me. 

 

 

 

 

They will probably expand the story with BL novels and trough the Codex.

Edited February 7, 2017 by Demigod

[RandomMarine]

I don't think the "Storm" is over as they said it would bring stuff for every faction. So far they have covered human imperium,Astarte's imperium and eldar. So they still have lots toys to dish out this yeah yet.

I can see a beast style upgrade for orks as gazzy is on the brink of it now. A proper nid fleet with a new big gribbly.necrons re assembling a ctan from the shards.chaos get cult primarchs and kits and god knows what they'll tau maybe a assault elite

[dogfender]

I believe that RG is just the tip of the iceberg. His other lost brothers will follow, and when they are all together they will morph into a Voltron like super planet killer titan, in the form of the Emperor. Or they will summon the Emperor like captain planet. Both great options *eats popcorn*.

[Nusquam]

Guilliman will probably create his second empire all over again. He was secretly a renegade already, under the guise of "contingency plans". Victors get to write history after all.

 

 

He created his own imperium, The Imperium Secundus once and proclaimed the Imperium lost and that the Emperor failed then named Sanguinius Emperor. Supposedly it was because contact was lost. Even Sangy knew it and called out Guilliman that he was actually running the show and Sang was just a figurehead.

 

Sure he wasn't formally labeled a renegade and traitor. But what happens when you make your own empire, rather than help the one you supposedly swore to?

 

Then again it's Black Library, they and GW proper don't always line up.