The implications of Guillimans return for the Imperium.

[RandomMarine]

Seen a supposed leak of his rules same stats a hh rg 2+/3++ with fnp,reroll 1s to hit and wound, has cawls healing ability

[Brother Aiwass]

 

 

Before this thread gets locked for turning into a flame war over the Lion and Guilliman. On topic:

GW is a business so the storyline will be driven by sales. If the new book and models flop then Guilliman will get parked out of the way or killed off. However, the buzz in the online community suggests it will be a hit which means GW will crank out every Primarch they can.

Because the Heresy story arc is still ongoing we don't know the mentality of the Primarchs post-heresy and pre-disappearance. From what I have read though this is my expectation of how they would/should react:

Guilliman: The politician and pragmatist. He's going to be really unhappy about the degeneration of the Imperium but he'll recognise the threats and get on with the job working with what's available to him.

The Lion: In the Emperor v Chaos I believe he was loyal to the Emperor but the Emperor is gone, the Imperium a poor shadow or even the antithesis of what it was meant to be. The Lion is a brilliant but arrogant and distrustful warlord. I think he would re-unite his fragmented legion, tell Guilliman where to stick his objections, lead a brilliant campaign of his own against the traitors and xenos but largely disregard the rest of the Imperium.

The Khan: Similar to The Lion in that he was never big on the institutions and structure of the Imperium. For him the idea was more important than the mechanics. The caveat is that we don't know how he will be changed by the Siege of Terra and whatever happened to him after he disappeared.

Russ: His focus will be on killing the traitors but I don't think he'd hesitate to attack what he sees as traitors within such as the Ecclesiarchy. Remember even pre-Heresy he was willing to make war on fellow legions.

Dorn: Unlike Guilliman who is a pragmatist Dorn was always the idealist and true believer in his father's vision. If they bring him back then he's going to handle the High Lords of Terra with all the subtlety of an arco-flagellant in a china shop. He may try to take over not for personal glory but because he can't bear to see someone else do a rubbish job when he believes he knows better.

Sanguinius: If death is to have any impact in universe he needs to stay dead but if GW sales people decide a model of him would sell well then after End Times nothing off limits. The Sanguinor will turn into the reincarnation of the Primarch and he'll be the ultimate living saint at the head of the Adeptus Ministorum.

 

 

Ferrus Manus: Being dead is his thing. Please, please don't have the Iron Handd build a robot Primarch so as not to feel left out.

Vulkan: I've not read The Beast series but from what I know he's the one Primarch who might actually have lived through the entirety if the last ten millenia in an eternity of violence and death. He's not going to be the idealist he once was. A lot of things will get burned.

Corax: The Imperium represents the horrors and injustices of pre-Corax Deliverance writ large. I think he'll refuse to serve in any capacity aligned with the High Lords of Terra and covertly work against the unjust institutions of the Imperium.

 

 

 

 

I really do hope this happens. I would love to see an imperial civil war. Cypher finally killing the Emperor -to be reborn in following editions as the Star Child; The Lion reuniting his own legion fighting the Great Enemy (and eventually Guilliman), Dorn claiming the Imperium command and following the Lion's example legion wise and trying to reform the empire, Guilliman again re-founding Imperium Secundus as a "secure base of operations/plan B" cover, and Corax fighting the corrupt old empire institutions.

Meanwhile Chaos and Xenoscum preying on what's left if Abaddon dies (which I hope he does).

[lokkorex]

they could bring back sanguinius without bringing him back.

 

just let the sanguinor fall to the black rage and survive it, believing fully that he is the primarch, while noone knowing exactly what he is.

 

granted all i know about the sanguinor is he is like a blood angels exclusive legion of the damned, and he may or may not be azkaellon, or he may or may not be sanguinius spirit/soul/brainfarts made manifest.

[Arkangilos]

I seriously doubt he is anything manifested if Sanguinius. He wouldn't have a jump pack :p

[the jeske]

Question about imperial law. was the act that made him the head of the lords of terra ever made void? He wasnt able to hold the function, but he also never technicly died. So while he was in stasis his titel [if it was still his] was more or less honorary, but after him coming back he more or less becomes the president of imperium.

[Ishagu]

Guilliman is a High Lord of Terra and the Lord Commander (Warmaster but re-named) of the Imperium.

 

Upon his return he would have more power than any individual. I don't believe his Status or Honours could be stripped.

[Brother Captain Ed]

More importantly: It doesn't matter.  If the High Lords formally vacated his seat however many thousand years ago, it's totally irrelevant.  Guilliman, like every Primarch, does not derive his authority from legal standing.  He is the Lord Commander because he cannot be otherwise. 

 

He is the son of Him-on-Terra.  

He is Lord of Ultramar.

He is the father of 60%+ of every Space Marine in the galaxy.

He is followed by The Living Saint and bears the sword that marched at the head of the Great Crusade.

He is clad in the work of the Mechanicus, blessed by the Emperor, flanked by His Angels of Death, and no man under arms who sees him can deny his authority.

 

You, dear mortal, owe him your allegiance.  

 

Kneel and reaffirm your loyalty to the authority of the Emperor or be cast from His Light forever.  No legal quibbling on the matter is relevant.

[Arkangilos]

Guilliman is a High Lord of Terra and the Lord Commander (Warmaster but re-named) of the Imperium.

 

Upon his return he would have more power than any individual. I don't believe his Status or Honours could be stripped.

I thought Lord Solar was the new Warmaster (according to the AM/IG codex).

 

Lord Commander is literally just a title that many commanders can carry (like Dante).

[Happy-inquisitor]

 

Guilliman: The politician and pragmatist. He's going to be really unhappy about the degeneration of the Imperium but he'll recognise the threats and get on with the job working with what's available to him.

 

 

 

Right: and this is exactly why the Eldar decided that he was their one shot at saving the galaxy from chaos. A shot worth risking the loss of their only hope of salvation by sending out everyone who could bring that about on a desperate mission to bring him back.

 

Now the Eldar may be tricky and unreliable but they are not stupid or lacking in foresight. Up to the point where he is clearly the best hope of holding the Imperium together so that the whole of humanity does not fall to corruption I would say they have picked the right man for the job. He is an empire builder by nature and probably only second-best in that field to his father.

 

Naturally further events - such as the arrival of other Primarchs - will upset this calculation in some way.

[the jeske]

More importantly: It doesn't matter.  If the High Lords formally vacated his seat however many thousand years ago, it's totally irrelevant.  Guilliman, like every Primarch, does not derive his authority from legal standing.  He is the Lord Commander because he cannot be otherwise. 

 

He is the son of Him-on-Terra.  

He is Lord of Ultramar.

He is the father of 60%+ of every Space Marine in the galaxy.

He is followed by The Living Saint and bears the sword that marched at the head of the Great Crusade.

He is clad in the work of the Mechanicus, blessed by the Emperor, flanked by His Angels of Death, and no man under arms who sees him can deny his authority.

 

You, dear mortal, owe him your allegiance.  

 

Kneel and reaffirm your loyalty to the authority of the Emperor or be cast from His Light forever.  No legal quibbling on the matter is relevant.

yeah. like most regimes law interpretation is very literal in the empire[so churchs "no man under arms"]. If he has the title then he has doesn't lose it, the only person who could technicly take it back is the emperor. Now that does not of course mean the high lords of terra are suddenly going to be happy about the head of their collegium suddenly poping up. Normaly in the normal world when something like that happens, the person is killed [or he has to do a purge].

[Red_Shift]

Imo it's fairly obvious a schism will occur. In the heresy the ultramarines protected their own empire, when the beast arose it was dorns sons who led the imperium and in the age is apostasy dorns sons again besieged the imperial palace. The ultramarines have always looked to their realm first and that's fine but it will lead to an enlightened ultramar vs unenlightened rump Imperium split.

 

With cawl there is a potential for team ultramar to get new equipment which would differentiate between them and old.imperium

[Demigod]

RG is a populist power grabber and nothing more. He will not change anything in the Imperium for the better except his personal position.

[Ishagu]

Actually he's a true visionary who betters the lives of the people he governs, hence the idyllic state of Ultramar compared to the general hell hole that is the typical Imperium world.

[Arkangilos]

RG is a populist power grabber and nothing more. He will not change anything in the Imperium for the better except his personal position.

Source please. And no, Imperium Secundus does not count, because he had no way of leaving or even knowing what happened to the rest of the Galaxy .

 

The codex doesn't count either because it also diminished his own power, and the actual government that the emperor himself set up (the high lords, aka the council of Terra) pretty well forced him to do that. It was a "split the legions or we will get rid of the legions" situation .

 

Jesus Christ this is old.

 

Imo it's fairly obvious a schism will occur. In the heresy the ultramarines protected their own empire

Considering they were literally TRAPPED. I mean if your house was completely locked down, and there was literally no way in, are you going to make sure you get the mirderers clear of your house, or beat hopelessly against the wall, unsure if your neighborhood is even still ok. Keep in mind, there are murderers already directly attacking you.

[Ascanius]

Actually he's a true visionary who betters the lives of the people he governs, hence the idyllic state of Ultramar compared to the general hell hole that is the typical Imperium world.

Well, let's not forget that the Imperium is a totalitarian state whether we're talking 30K or 40K. If Ultramar is an idyllic realm, it's more akin to a privileged enclave for pure Aryans in Nazi Germany than anything else - it's only idyllic by the warped standards of the Emperor's tyrannical vision. It's still a realm without liberty, every life yoked to the state without choice; just more velvet glove than iron fist.

[Aramis K]

I'd like to see RG grow the chapters. 1000 marines always seemed tiny and it never added up when the legions split. Ultramarines would have had to have 200+ sucessors in just second founding.

So no return to the legions, but maybe grow a chapter to 10,000. More scope for large scale actions, distribution around the imperium etc, but still lots of chapters around.

Am still hoping for a split in Imperium too. The Faithful vs True.

[Khornestar]

I'd like to see RG grow the chapters. 1000 marines always seemed tiny and it never added up when the legions split. Ultramarines would have had to have 200+ sucessors in just second founding.

So no return to the legions, but maybe grow a chapter to 10,000. More scope for large scale actions, distribution around the imperium etc, but still lots of chapters around.

Am still hoping for a split in Imperium too. The Faithful vs True.

I like that. All the threats in the galaxy may necessitate more Astartes. And in turn, increases the likelihood of more heresy. Win-win!

[roryokane]

 

I'd like to see RG grow the chapters. 1000 marines always seemed tiny and it never added up when the legions split. Ultramarines would have had to have 200+ sucessors in just second founding.

So no return to the legions, but maybe grow a chapter to 10,000. More scope for large scale actions, distribution around the imperium etc, but still lots of chapters around.

Am still hoping for a split in Imperium too. The Faithful vs True.

I like that. All the threats in the galaxy may necessitate more Astartes. And in turn, increases the likelihood of more heresy. Win-win!

 

Except led by Guilliman, so no real risk of Heresy.

[Sete]

People said the same thing about Horus.

[Brother Aiwass]

I like to imagine the frustration of RG when he sees the current status of the Imperium. The Monarchia situation again, but in galactic scale, and everytime an imperial citizen says "God-Emperor!" he'll be like

 

"LORGAAAAAAAR"

 

xD

[Legionnaire of the VIIth]

I like to imagine the frustration of RG when he sees the current status of the Imperium. The Monarchia situation again, but in galactic scale, and everytime an imperial citizen says "God-Emperor!" he'll be like

 

"LORGAAAAAAAR"

 

xD

I would think that knowing Lorgar actually succeeded in corrupting the Empire to the extent that is prevalent in the 41st Millennium would be a real sore spot for him.

[RandomMarine]

That's why lorgar is meditating (laughing his ass off)

[Ishagu]

So, I heard this mentioned in a few places, don't know where it comes from.

 

Apparently in the next book, once Guilliman returns to Terra, he walks in to the Golden Throne room and discovers he's not the first Primarch to arrive.

Again, this could be bogus/whishy stuff.

 

That would be pretty interesting however...

[RandomMarine]

Rg opens the door to the throne room

 

DORN . whats up G

RG. golly gee are you doing here

DORN . me and valdor been chilling in the basement yo.

RG. !!!!!

DORN. Vulkan says hi

RG.!!!!!

DORN. How did you get dads sword. Gives cawl a dirty look

RG how did you let the imperium get this bad DORN ?

DORN. You gave them power and barred the legions from politics. This is your doing you fool. Hands RG a red painted helm. I think you earned this.

 

Lol

[M@verik115]

RG opens the door. 
RG: DORN!!!??? Is that you?
Dorn: Yes
RG: Where have you been?
Dorn: Here
RG: How could you let the imperium get this bad? Are there any other survivors? 
Dorn: ...yes....