Bat33.1 Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 Looking at the current state of play in HH gaming where would you place the Legions in order of overall game play? Which legions are most suited to cc, which are the most balanced in their gameplay between shooting and cc and which are top in the shooting stakes? Which of the legions do you think the least powerful on the table? I gues we also need to look at where Mechanicum and Custodes fit into the game too? So any thoughts? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/331844-legion-power-levels-in-30k/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 Not all inclusive... Choppy: Blood Angels, World Eaters, Imperial Fists (Templars), Space Wolves, Raven Guard, Salamanders Shooty: Iron Warriors, Ultramarines, Iron Hands Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/331844-legion-power-levels-in-30k/#findComment-4680447 Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 In terms of power levels, I believe I rated Legions based upon tiers. There are a few good reasons why as it can come down strategy. Top tier - Thousand Sons, Sons of Horus, White Scars, Iron Hands, World Eaters (Berzerker RoW + Inductii/Surlak) Mid tier - Night Lords (Terror RoW), Iron Warriors (Ironfire RoW), Dark Angels (with either RoW), Alpha Legion/Raven Guard, Blood Angels, Salamanders (depends on list/RoW), Imperial Fists, Word Bearers (Serrated Sun) Low Tier - Death Guard, Dark Angels (without RoW), Space Wolves (until rules adjustment), Word Bearers (without RoW) Note: this does not include Primarchs into the mix. Most of the judging criteria functions on how well the RoWs help the army, basic legion rules, special units, and characters. F'rex the Iron hands have their Inviolable armor, Orth, Mor, and Head of the Gorgon going for them. Mid tier like could have a good character or a good RoW, or good gear, but don't have list variety as you have to capitalize on that (those) good traits to become competitive. Of course this list is subjective... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/331844-legion-power-levels-in-30k/#findComment-4680475 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Memento Of Prospero Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 I dont think there is enough disparity inbetween the legions to be able to 3 seperate tiers I would probably just do upper tier and mid tier. @Black Orange, salamanders are definitely not choppy. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/331844-legion-power-levels-in-30k/#findComment-4680717 Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 I dont think there is enough disparity inbetween the legions to be able to 3 seperate tiers I would probably just do upper tier and mid tier. @Black Orange, salamanders are definitely not choppy. Again, subjectivity, but separating into really good and not really good does not do justice. Mainly the tier use is actually how easy can someone use this army to great effect without much skill/luck. I don't mean that as a denigrating comment, but some lists require you to really think outside the box and leverage anything possible to your advantage. Take for example dark Angels. Run them without a RoW and they are actually worse off than vanilla legion due to loss of Vps and how terrible the blade master rule works. However, spam acid bolters in RW with rad grenades or leverage Ironwing and you have a pretty decent list that has a hope of winning. On the other hand, middle tier can have "big win, big loss" armies like Terror lists or Ironfire. Utilizing the fantastic benefits and you can compete with upper tier. But if you run into a hard counter army like Space Wolves (Terror list dies) or drop list (Ironfire has arty and low mobility) you will be no better off than low tier armies. Some armies are just inherently easier to use and recover from losses with, it's just how the game is lol Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/331844-legion-power-levels-in-30k/#findComment-4680752 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Withershadow Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 I don't think there are truly enough disparities for three tiers. Some have a bit more immediately usable abilties, like Thousand Sons, Sons of Horus, and Alpha Legion. The loyalist standouts are probably Raven Guard and Imperial Fists, and I expect both Angel varieties to be quite strong when fleshed out. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/331844-legion-power-levels-in-30k/#findComment-4680760 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bat33.1 Posted March 11, 2017 Author Share Posted March 11, 2017 Fist certainly appear to be able to do most things well and have some options as to how you want them to play, solid cc units, strong shooting, and some very strong characters. I know Alpha Legion where very popular, probably still are in truth, for similar reasons as they have a lot of flexibility with tactics plus the option to 'steal' a unit from outside their own rules. What happened to Word Bearers plus demons? I thought they were supposed to be very strong but I now see them listed as a lower tier army? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/331844-legion-power-levels-in-30k/#findComment-4680788 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Memento Of Prospero Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 Daemons are very intollerant to the glory of Choom weaponry. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/331844-legion-power-levels-in-30k/#findComment-4680790 Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRIBUN Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 Not all inclusive... Choppy: Blood Angels, World Eaters, Imperial Fists (Templars), Space Wolves, Raven Guard, Salamanders Shooty: Iron Warriors, Ultramarines, Iron Hands What is the DG? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/331844-legion-power-levels-in-30k/#findComment-4680799 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aenar Deathclaws Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 @Depthcharge : I'm new to the heresy. I would like to know what places the sw in the low tier? I'm aware that the rules aren't well written but if you can develop I'd gladly read it. I will play my wolves no matter but each victory will have a special flavor if it's against all odds. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/331844-legion-power-levels-in-30k/#findComment-4680849 Share on other sites More sharing options...
disease Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 Not all inclusive... Choppy: Blood Angels, World Eaters, Imperial Fists (Templars), Space Wolves, Raven Guard, Salamanders Shooty: Iron Warriors, Ultramarines, Iron Hands What is the DG? DG are a hard army to play 'right'; the rules given would suggest an army tailored around close range shooty, with the reaping rite of war designed with longer range shooting in mind (veterans, heavy support squads, fortifications). However, in reality, the 'unfluffy' or not normally considered in a Death Guard army actually does very well in the reaping (looking at you assault marines & bikes with rad grenades and move through cover, librarians, volkites over shred flamers etc). Which leads to a bit of a split personality force - you have Mortarion, sergeants and the unique units all doing very well in melee (but not outstanding), but with little hope of getting into combat and modifier to sweep results and initiative. Personally, I'd say DG want to be up in the enemies face (utilising flamers and remorseless), but not necessarily always charging. Hope that helps somewhat, I think they need fleshing out more both in the story and on the table. Rask as a Seige Breaker would be a start. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/331844-legion-power-levels-in-30k/#findComment-4680952 Share on other sites More sharing options...
disease Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 @Depthcharge : I'm new to the heresy. I would like to know what places the sw in the low tier? I'm aware that the rules aren't well written but if you can develop I'd gladly read it. I will play my wolves no matter but each victory will have a special flavor if it's against all odds. Wait for depth charge, but I would guess: HQ taxes, mandatory troops taxes, heavy force org restrictions ruling out many ROW Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/331844-legion-power-levels-in-30k/#findComment-4680955 Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 @Depthcharge : I'm new to the heresy. I would like to know what places the sw in the low tier? I'm aware that the rules aren't well written but if you can develop I'd gladly read it. I will play my wolves no matter but each victory will have a special flavor if it's against all odds. Wait for depth charge, but I would guess: HQ taxes, mandatory troops taxes, heavy force org restrictions ruling out many ROW^^ Pretty much this. Plus the confusing wording of immobile and how warrior mettle works. You're forced into playing infantry centric army (not a problem) but you get penalized and lose rules (warrior mettle, different other rules) when you try to build around that and add characters to buff the squads. Grey Slayers would be awesome if it didn't limit your RoW choices and force you to take them as mandatory. And that's coming from someone who likes the idea of Grey Slayers. Not to mention things like Varyagar that get penalized compared to other 2W specialized terminators. I've created some decently powered outflanking lists that revolve around Grey slayers but let's just say after that I don't touch the SW tactica with a 10 foot electro prod :O Edit: I wanted to include that my ranking is by no means conclusive or comprehensive and I actively encourage dissension and discussion on it. It's my general "feel" of the meta and could be completely wrong, but it's taking into account more than a few factors. I'm sure any legion list could work with a Leviathan drop Talon, quad mortars, and sniper vets, but I wanted to take into account: A.) people want to play with special characters/units as that's half the reason they chose their legion B.) not everyone is a jerkbag list breaker (my first mistake lol) C.) Primarchs tend to muddle the lines and make the games much more variable Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/331844-legion-power-levels-in-30k/#findComment-4680965 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sentinel Guy Posted March 12, 2017 Share Posted March 12, 2017 Not all inclusive... Choppy: Blood Angels, World Eaters, Imperial Fists (Templars), Space Wolves, Raven Guard, Salamanders Shooty: Iron Warriors, Ultramarines, Iron Hands Salamanders are not a combat army. They're a drive forward, jump out, shoot melta/flame weapons and pray they kill enough, because next round they will get swept in combat. They pretty much just have variations of one list that works. I started off loving them because of the awesome pyroclast and Vulkan models, but after playing them for a while I've come to the conclusion that they are the most boring legion to play. No phospex, destroyers, moritat, being weak in combat but desperately needing to be super close for shooting. Every list seems to need the covenant of fire rite, spamming meltaguns and firedrakes in an assault vehicle. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/331844-legion-power-levels-in-30k/#findComment-4681005 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted March 12, 2017 Share Posted March 12, 2017 I dont think there is enough disparity inbetween the legions to be able to 3 seperate tiers I would probably just do upper tier and mid tier. @Black Orange, salamanders are definitely not choppy. I totally agree and these kinds of discussion are anathema to our hobby. I feel like a good player can beat any army with any army. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/331844-legion-power-levels-in-30k/#findComment-4681040 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted March 12, 2017 Share Posted March 12, 2017 Not all inclusive... Choppy: Blood Angels, World Eaters, Imperial Fists (Templars), Space Wolves, Raven Guard, Salamanders Shooty: Iron Warriors, Ultramarines, Iron Hands What is the DG? I think they are very choppy (both specialist term squads) and any legion can excel at shooting - some a bit more than others. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/331844-legion-power-levels-in-30k/#findComment-4681043 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brofist Posted March 12, 2017 Share Posted March 12, 2017 People complain about grey slayers because they can't run pride and spam min maxed vet squads to be 'competitive' Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/331844-legion-power-levels-in-30k/#findComment-4681053 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted March 12, 2017 Share Posted March 12, 2017 Play the legion you like, not the one who's rules are best. That said, the power gap is minimal. It only exists where some legions are half forced into certain Rites (Kakaphoni, for example) or they aren't all there yet (BA/DA) but most can do wonders with a generic rite and some Legion rules interactions (NL and Sky Vanguard assault marine rite thing). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/331844-legion-power-levels-in-30k/#findComment-4681065 Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted March 12, 2017 Share Posted March 12, 2017 People complain about grey slayers because they can't run pride and spam min maxed vet squads to be 'competitive' I agree. There are plenty of ways to run outflanking grey Slayers to good use. Slap a few combi plas and swords in them and make them "flank and spank." ;) Though there is some cause for concern because others would actually like to run sky hunter phalanxes and assault squad vanguard to name a few, which makes it tough to do. They are also afraid said special snowflakes will die to scorpii, medusae, and a million other night terrors... Ya know. The things that kill max min vet spam too :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/331844-legion-power-levels-in-30k/#findComment-4681086 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Blackwood Posted March 12, 2017 Share Posted March 12, 2017 or you could just roll Russ like I do in my lists and still min max vet spam \ o w o / Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/331844-legion-power-levels-in-30k/#findComment-4681100 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robzilla Posted March 12, 2017 Share Posted March 12, 2017 People complain about grey slayers because they can't run pride and spam min maxed vet squads to be 'competitive'Actually disagree here. Well, I've no doubt some people do complain for those reasons, I think the main complaint is a logistical one. The min sized squad of ten doesn't synergise well with all the extra characters we need to take. As soon as we pop a character with the unit, they aren't allowed in a transport. (unless you have shelled out for a spartan or mastodon) But the problem is that the character ALSO slows down the unit, by effectively losing them warriors mettle, thus stripping the unit of one of its greatest strengths. For all that, I personally do like the squad, but I feel 90%of the complaining are for the above reasons. Why characters don't gain the rule when joining the unit (of have it anyway) is a mystery to me. Edit: On topic point... Most legions are within a very tight range band of power. I'd be confident that with the right generalship, any legion could beat any legion (of course there are a few bad matchups mind) I think the real disparity comes from the other factions, like the mechanicum, solar auxilia and talons of the emperor (power level 9000). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/331844-legion-power-levels-in-30k/#findComment-4681152 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Withershadow Posted March 12, 2017 Share Posted March 12, 2017 All the characters may be better off in a death star of sorts as a big command squad, leaving the scoring units to do their thing on their own. Adding characters just draws more fire to them! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/331844-legion-power-levels-in-30k/#findComment-4681238 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Runefyre Posted March 12, 2017 Share Posted March 12, 2017 People complain about grey slayers because they can't run pride and spam min maxed vet squads to be 'competitive'Actually disagree here.Well, I've no doubt some people do complain for those reasons, I think the main complaint is a logistical one. The min sized squad of ten doesn't synergise well with all the extra characters we need to take. As soon as we pop a character with the unit, they aren't allowed in a transport. (unless you have shelled out for a spartan or mastodon) But the problem is that the character ALSO slows down the unit, by effectively losing them warriors mettle, thus stripping the unit of one of its greatest strengths. For all that, I personally do like the squad, but I feel 90%of the complaining are for the above reasons. Why characters don't gain the rule when joining the unit (of have it anyway) is a mystery to me. Edit: On topic point... Most legions are within a very tight range band of power. I'd be confident that with the right generalship, any legion could beat any legion (of course there are a few bad matchups mind) I think the real disparity comes from the other factions, like the mechanicum, solar auxilia and talons of the emperor (power level 9000). this^ I can't even attach a basic legion apothecary to my grey slayers without losing the rule that makes them good...... And I agree about the mechanicum and solar auxilia (I haven't play with or against talons yet so I can't speak to them) issue. FW has done a poor job balancing those two lists. They have units that are way too cheap for what they can do and vehicles that are better than legion vehicles. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/331844-legion-power-levels-in-30k/#findComment-4681288 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted March 12, 2017 Share Posted March 12, 2017 I don't run characters with my tactical Vets ... not the end of the world. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/331844-legion-power-levels-in-30k/#findComment-4681338 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Runefyre Posted March 12, 2017 Share Posted March 12, 2017 I don't run characters with my tactical Vets ... not the end of the world. But Grey Slayers are a dedicated melee unit, they need the FnP if anybody does. Certainly more than vets. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/331844-legion-power-levels-in-30k/#findComment-4681341 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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