Legion Power Levels in 30k?

[Robzilla]

I don't run characters with my tactical Vets ... not the end of the world.

You aren't shoehorned into taking loads of characters.

You still have the option to, and a dedicated transport readily available if you do.

Your vet tacticals aren't debuffed by putting characters with them.

 

So not really a fair comparison.

 

As others have said, it's not the end of the world, but it definitely does make list building harder for the wolves if you are wanting any kind of mobile force.

[Bat33.1]

When 30k first appeared it was very much fluff based lists and lots of PA bodies as this was the cheapest option for getting started but as more has been released it feels like PA are becoming an endangered species in the game. It now feels like it's getting a bit more competitive depending on your local meta with lots of template weapons that remove marines by the handful when they don't drive around in their metal bawkses which is making it tough for those Legions that rely on getting bodies across the board to kill things.

 

I posted the original question about power levels just as a general guide rather than having newbies plow through 60 page plus tactica guides to get a feel for what they'd like to play. It's always been the case that a top player with a less than strong list will still come out on top most games but when player ability is equal you can't get away with that.

 

As an extra to the discussion, do most players here feel that mechanicum, knights and SA, let alone Custodes as an army are all out in front compared to the Legions? FW so far have done a great job with HH as you can find players for most of the fleshed out Legions unlike 40k where some factions have almost become invisible in regular games due to the way they've been left behind.

[Kais Klip]

I agree on your feeling in regards to the viability of Power Armored asses armed with nothing more than bolter and chainsword. In an attempt to mitigate that I've moved on from discriminating against Paragon Blade wielding praetors (so 2008) to getting choleric at the sight of another ten man veteran squad in a rhino.

 

I've discovered that as always, the best counter is to be passive aggressive, ie: shake your head, and buy more power armor. Always being in between legions, so no matter what Legiones Astartes i use , I've yet to come across a negative win/loss record using five twenty man blobs. And guess what happens when I lose; both of us actually have fun anyway. 

 

And that's what the Space Wolves are meant for players are probably mad they can't play the space wolf rendition of 2 Space Marine squads and a "praetor" went-a-Heresying. 

 

Field more men, stick your HQs in their elite (read: veteran) retinues, and you can still field all the Grey Slayers you want. I mean I'm slobering at your rules, they're almost as fun as the Night Lords, and here you are complaining. Of course the Chogorians are mad, you even get hit and run!

 

Perhaps it is so because if your headquarters were as fearless and zergfull as the grunts, they wouldn't be commanding officers, but dead, just like their furry grunts. 

 

Or, in the words of one Svane Wolffbad: "Hjolda, slow down a minute and let me think!" 

 

How do you think you got Angron surrounded, if your commanding officers love running after a thrown heresy so fast that they can't even pause to volley their bolters? 

 

As always:  Trust in the Bligh. 

[defl0]

All the legions have competative builds. Most have a lot of competative builds.

 

Some of the legions are much harder to play than others and require more seasoned generals to play effectively while some legions are very straight forward. Some are streaky and their power level depends on who they are playing, who goes first or what psychic powers they roll.

 

The best legions play both sides of the table.

[depthcharge12]

Lol the Space Wolves are a natural disaster XD I'm going to remember that one.

 

@Kais

I think some of the problem comes down to "which Legions actually have marines benefit from their rules, and who has 'good' marine units." Like RG, AL, SoH, and TS have awesome marine units to just name a few, so you'll see more marine centric armies with them. I am guilty of running vet squads too, but I play SoH and DAs who likely have some of the most veteran units out of the Legions in fluff. Likewise, I'm generally running 15-20 man despoiler squads, which are hilarious!

 

The game sort of evolved from 1.) spam medusae, Spartans, and moritats to 2.) spam sicarans, fire raptors, and deredeos to 3.) spam quad mortars, leviathan talons, and veterans

 

I believe I took vet snipers to counter things like Castellax and quad mortars that I saw as a plague upon the game, but they also perform in a useful manner that regular bolters just can't seem to do. I still love to run large terminator lists, but I also want to use destroyers, lascannon heavy support marines (HS MARINES! WHO USES THOSE?!?!), and specialist MEQ save units.

 

My SoH lists are super infantry heavy, but my DA list is not. Mainly it comes down to how one has lots of rules to reward infantry, and the other (sadly) does not. And that's kind of what it comes down to.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Love fluff players that get mad that more competitive minded players use better builds instead of making a list they like.  

 

"Use more power armour" is a terrible strategy in a world where the typhon, leviathan and phosphex rapiers exist. Why would people not buy rhino squads to mitigate the damage from those units?

[Slips]

 

Remember the board rules. =][=

 

So, to the Original Question and the Topic at hand:

 

Of ALL the armies available in 30k, none of them are truly head and shoulders above the rest full stop. There are outliers like pure Questoris Knight Armies (7-8 Knights at 3k) but otherwise, the playing field is pretty level in general terms and since 30k is mostly played amongst friends, rarely will one ever truly encounter egregious shenanigans.

[Purge the Daemon]

I think there is a difference between legions and if the game was only space marines we would see it more so. But the ability to utilise allied armies or armies solely comprised of Knights, Auxilla, mechanicum, custards and militia (rending zealot variety) defintely clumps the Legions up closer together in the relative scale of the game.

I think the big gap as stated here between legions is ease of execution it is much easier to build a strong list with some legions then others and with some it's much easier to build a strong fun/fluffy to an extent list than others as well. If you mix maxed the entirety of the list most Legion Special Units wouldn't make it with some exceptions and it would narrow down to LA which some are on par some are better. Really though most of the Legions are similar enought to play with each other for the most part (nova Magnus isn't but I assume that will be FAQ'D, some other stuff is noticeably better but none of the is as bad as 40k).

And this is coming from me a space wolves and sisters fan (admittedly pure sisters are the weakest army in 30k) and I don't think wolves are particularly strong but I don't think they can't play with the other legions either (they just need some fixing tweaking and would be fine).

[Cryptix]

Anyway, Slip said it all. Each Legion plays differently based on playstyle, units, and meta. Don't make me get on my rant that there is no usch thing as tactica.

[depthcharge12]

Love fluff players that get mad that more competitive minded players use better builds instead of making a list they like.

 

"Use more power armour" is a terrible strategy in a world where the typhon, leviathan and phosphex rapiers exist. Why would people not buy rhino squads to mitigate the damage from those units?

I agree with you here but let me elucidate it a bit more: "don't take crappy units because they're crappy, take units that fill a role that might not be super efficient, but are still usable."

 

Otherwise we'd all play Custodes or rending warp cult blobs :P I don't want this discussion to end with rock, paper, scissors - that's not tactics lol

 

Take your crazy good Hetaron squads, and I'll take my Justaerin terminators, but if I so much as see you take a Tankibune, you're gonna get the fun end of a dreadsock...

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

 

I don't run characters with my tactical Vets ... not the end of the world.

 

But Grey Slayers are a dedicated melee unit, they need the FnP if anybody does. Certainly more than vets.

The same can be said in regards to any melee unit for any Legion - Grey Slayers aren't special. I was using Vets as an example.

[RandomMarine]

I kinda feel that the IH are quite underestimated. Almost unkillable tacs when with a apocathary , tough as :cuss dreads of all flavours , arguably the best mechanised force of all legion when using Hotg and add ferrus to any list built round these archetypes and they just get tougher, the only thing they aren't great at is CC.

[MysticTemplar]

 

Love fluff players that get mad that more competitive minded players use better builds instead of making a list they like.

 

"Use more power armour" is a terrible strategy in a world where the typhon, leviathan and phosphex rapiers exist. Why would people not buy rhino squads to mitigate the damage from those units?

I agree with you here but let me elucidate it a bit more: "don't take crappy units because they're crappy, take units that fill a role that might not be super efficient, but are still usable."

 

Otherwise we'd all play Custodes or rending warp cult blobs :P I don't want this discussion to end with rock, paper, scissors - that's not tactics lol

 

Take your crazy good Hetaron squads, and I'll take my Justaerin terminators, but if I so much as see you take a Tankibune, you're gonna get the fun end of a dreadsock...

Besides, Hover tanks and spear wielding Dreadnaughts solve all problems. If there's a problem you dread, naught will solve it like a robot with a spear!

 

Though there's a second point here that makes me a little sad - I really like the aesthetics of the Custodian shields, and I'd really love to give my shield captain a little cyber kitty or something, but in the interests of a fun game, never shall the two meet.

[NoLifeKing]

Anyone whose legion army consists of spammed tactical veteran squads is either homeless or lacking in intellect points. Pride of the legion is the worst rite of war possible as it doesn't give you any other benefits than that it allows the said homeless person to build an army from his first calth or prospero box and call it vaguely "playable".  

Now that i got that out of my system, i can actually commit to the actual topic of the threat:

Legions are all in all balanced when compared to each other, each have their own strenghts and short comings. Some legions have rules that are much easier to leverage than others and thus create the illusion of being "better" than the other legions. Two of such legions being Imperial fists and Iron hands for clear and simple example, they have very solid advantage written into their core legiones astartes rules that dont take much brains to abuse. While that makes them bit "easier" to run, it doesn't give them enough power to curbstomp other legions, because even tho the others have more complicated strenghts to leverage, they are by no means rocket science to understand, and can be unlocked with sparing a meagre amount of time and focus to read their rules twice. 

And the myth about custodians being overpowered should allready be buried deep beneath terras soil, by the emperor...

In a nutshell, forget the hopes of abusing some op mechanic or army to sate your lust for easy wins, and feel no fear of the nonexistent powercreep.

BALANCE EXISTS.

 

[Slips]

So for having been playing POTL since before Book 3 and with a pure forgeworld army that has no BoP or B@C models in it and for also playing the army I personally find fulfilling and enjoying to play, I'm Homeless and worthless, is what you're saying?

 

You're certainly not making any friends fast with that kind of an attitude.

[NoLifeKing]

So for having been playing POTL since before Book 3 and with a pure forgeworld army that has no BoP or B@C models in it and for also playing the army I personally find fulfilling and enjoying to play, I'm Homeless and worthless, is what you're saying?

 

You're certainly not making any friends fast with that kind of an attitude.

Naturaly, if thats the kind of army your wish to play, then its your choice and no one should shame you for enjoying it. But since the topic was about power levels among the legions and i assume, competetive play, an army based on tactical veterans is far from the most effective. 

 

So let me rephrase what i said in the grips of my deep resentment towards POTL armylists:  

if POTL is your mainstay army type, you either can't afford an actual legion or you dont really give a rats ass about the strength of your army so long as you enjoy it.

 

RIght you are tho, making friends on an internet board is not my primary objective, however i wish to keep the atmosphere civil and therefore I humbly apologize to any and all whose jimmies has been ruffled by my posting.

[Purge the Daemon]

Anyone whose legion army consists of spammed tactical veteran squads is either homeless or lacking in intellect points. Pride of the legion is the worst rite of war possible as it doesn't give you any other benefits than that it allows the said homeless person to build an army from his first calth or prospero box and call it vaguely "playable".

 

Now that i got that out of my system, i can actually commit to the actual topic of the threat:

 

Legions are all in all balanced when compared to each other, each have their own strenghts and short comings. Some legions have rules that are much easier to leverage than others and thus create the illusion of being "better" than the other legions. Two of such legions being Imperial fists and Iron hands for clear and simple example, they have very solid advantage written into their core legiones astartes rules that dont take much brains to abuse. While that makes them bit "easier" to run, it doesn't give them enough power to curbstomp other legions, because even tho the others have more complicated strenghts to leverage, they are by no means rocket science to understand, and can be unlocked with sparing a meagre amount of time and focus to read their rules twice.

 

And the myth about custodians being overpowered should allready be buried deep beneath terras soil, by the emperor...

 

In a nutshell, forget the hopes of abusing some op mechanic or army to sate your lust for easy wins, and feel no fear of the nonexistent powercreep.

 

BALANCE EXISTS.

 

 

First off I don't think you should be calling anyone homeless or an idiot. Which is now the second thread you've gone and done this in.

 

Like do you have an issue with someone using the lovely plastic boxes provided to us because that's what it seems like. Nevermind how plastic can be the issue here because I could also build tacticals from the box if I desired to do so

... but my Legion can't use tacticals so I must be a dumb beggar or something.

 

Also seeing as veterans are actually good the majority of people would say you'd be an idiot to try to want to avoid a cheap scoring unit that actually has game impact.

 

Onto the second half seeing as people have actually played the armies available to hersey there are clear power levels especially outside of the legions and the custodes are incredibly strong as you may see from numerous battle reports where they decimate anything they touch even with their users forgetting half of their special rules.

 

In terms of the legions themselves there is defintely power discrepancies whole most Legion Rules are similar enought some row are by far better than others (gotck, ironfire, decapitation, Chogian brtherhood) are all incredibly strong. The game will never be balanced it honestly never was but its far better than 40k or other game systems and thus most of the time you stand a chance at least in Legion vs Legion match ups. But of you are trying to say an emperors children force with an equal general stands a 50% chance to win vs a thousand sons/iron warriors/iron hands player you'd be lying to yourself.

[NoLifeKing]

 

Anyone whose legion army consists of spammed tactical veteran squads is either homeless or lacking in intellect points. Pride of the legion is the worst rite of war possible as it doesn't give you any other benefits than that it allows the said homeless person to build an army from his first calth or prospero box and call it vaguely "playable".

 

Now that i got that out of my system, i can actually commit to the actual topic of the threat:

 

Legions are all in all balanced when compared to each other, each have their own strenghts and short comings. Some legions have rules that are much easier to leverage than others and thus create the illusion of being "better" than the other legions. Two of such legions being Imperial fists and Iron hands for clear and simple example, they have very solid advantage written into their core legiones astartes rules that dont take much brains to abuse. While that makes them bit "easier" to run, it doesn't give them enough power to curbstomp other legions, because even tho the others have more complicated strenghts to leverage, they are by no means rocket science to understand, and can be unlocked with sparing a meagre amount of time and focus to read their rules twice.

 

And the myth about custodians being overpowered should allready be buried deep beneath terras soil, by the emperor...

 

In a nutshell, forget the hopes of abusing some op mechanic or army to sate your lust for easy wins, and feel no fear of the nonexistent powercreep.

 

BALANCE EXISTS.

 

First off I don't think you should be calling anyone homeless or an idiot. Which is now the second thread you've gone and done this in.

 

Like do you have an issue with someone using the lovely plastic boxes provided to us because that's what it seems like. Nevermind how plastic can be the issue here because I could also build tacticals from the box if I desired to do so

... but my Legion can't use tacticals so I must be a dumb beggar or something.

 

Also seeing as veterans are actually good the majority of people would say you'd be an idiot to try to want to avoid a cheap scoring unit that actually has game impact.

 

Onto the second half seeing as people have actually played the armies available to hersey there are clear power levels especially outside of the legions and the custodes are incredibly strong as you may see from numerous battle reports where they decimate anything they touch even with their users forgetting half of their special rules.

 

In terms of the legions themselves there is defintely power discrepancies whole most Legion Rules are similar enought some row are by far better than others (gotck, ironfire, decapitation, Chogian brtherhood) are all incredibly strong. The game will never be balanced it honestly never was but its far better than 40k or other game systems and thus most of the time you stand a chance at least in Legion vs Legion match ups. But of you are trying to say an emperors children force with an equal general stands a 50% chance to win vs a thousand sons/iron warriors/iron hands player you'd be lying to yourself.

 

First, i didn't call anyone an idiot. I did however hint towards possible poverty.

Second, You're telling lies or you are indeed "dumb beggar" (as you reffered to yourself) if you claim that your legion can't use tactical squads

Third, i have nothing against the plastic boxes, they are marvelous, and the bigger bulk of my ultramarines army is based on them. 

 

Despite your lies and slander that is directly targeted towards me, i will express my apologies on this thread aswell to any and all fellow users whose jimmies i have ruffled with my language towards the veteran tactical squads and the people who enjoy them.

 

 

[SafetyTurtle]

After reading this through I kinda feel guilty about planning on running Pride of the Legion for my WB ^^

[Brofist]

I mean, it shouldn't be an elephant in the room. Veterans are too good and it's no surprise people want to take them whenever possible over the other troops choices.

[NoLifeKing]

I mean, it shouldn't be an elephant in the room. Veterans are too good and it's no surprise people want to take them whenever possible over the other troops choices.

I by no means dispute their strength, but i can't find myself agreeing with the ideology of replacing tacticals with veterans as the best course of action. 

Just because veterans are strong, their strength doesn't make regular tacticals obsolete.

 

Their jobs and functions are different, not better or worse when compared to each other.

[RandomMarine]

IMO normal tac are just a tax and I play IH so my tacs are tough compared to others. But normal tac just get deleted on mass in the HH with typhoon,Scorpius ww and phos mortars being bis choices for most lists

 

I think potl is a viable row but as its the cheapest way to get into HH alot of our more elitist brothers look down on people who use it which is wrong as its there to represent a elite force rather than line company.

 

I'm running primarchs chosen at the moment which is a very similar row but because I have ferrus and a spartan in it I get no hate.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Tactical Marines are boring to some... trying to make people feel bad about not fielding them is silly. PotL also lets players field first companies which is fluffy.

[Excessus]

 

Anyone whose legion army consists of spammed tactical veteran squads is either homeless or lacking in intellect points.

 

 

 

First, i didn't call anyone an idiot.

 

 

Not by those exact words perhaps, but comeon we're not children.

[Anamnesis]

Also PotL is also a way to paint an army without painting millions of tacticals which a basicaly the same guy over and over, specially for slow painter and people who don't enjoy it, it's a way of playing an army too :)