Sun Reaver Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 So we know GW is planning to bring back the primarchs (loyalist and traitor) back over the course of the next couple of quarters. Obviously, there are some no-brainer contenders who are poised to return such as Khan, Corax, Lion, Russ, Vulkan, and the Dameon primarchs. However, I think it would be really cool if there was a way in which the primarch who are dead/presumed dead to come back in one way or another. Specifically, Sanguinius. Now, we all know Roboute was brought back through a combination of technology and the Ynaari's powers of death. Since Sanguinius' body has been interred in a stasis field coffin on Baal, is there a chance that he could come back through similar means? I know that there are many rumors hinting towards a campaign book covering the "Siege of Baal." I think this would be a perfect opportunity for The Angel to come back and save his chapter from the Tyrnaids and Chaos forces threatening the Baal system. You may call this wishful thinking, but I think this would be the amazing. I know the likelihood of this happening is slim at best, but I would appreciate constructive comments/criticism. After all this is the dream for myself, and I'm sure, many other BA fanboys out there. Cheers! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/331925-could-sanguinius-come-back/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
ServoBadger Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 If Sanguinius were to be brought back it would have to be very, very carefully done to not invalidate what made his sacrifice meaningful in the first place. And, how do I say this... I'm not against moving the plot forward in any way, but to me, it felt like GS1-3 rushed through masses of plot very, very quickly which robbed the events of dramatic weight. I would prefer that, if the Angel comes back, it was done in more than a paragraph. :) If I was told I had to write the Angel coming back, I'd do something like... Baal is on the edge of falling, the Blood Angels are retreating off-world, gathering up what relics from their Fortress-Monastery that they can. They come to the Angel's resting place to collect his body... and it's not there. And then not reveal what happened until the next book. :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/331925-could-sanguinius-come-back/#findComment-4682857 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 Didn't we already have a thread about whether and how Sanguinius could return?I can't find it anymore....maybe a mod moved it or something? lol Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/331925-could-sanguinius-come-back/#findComment-4682866 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indefragable Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 I'm not a fan of the idea of Sanguinius coming back. If he does, then what's to stop them bringing Horus back as well? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/331925-could-sanguinius-come-back/#findComment-4682874 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 I'm not a fan of the idea of Sanguinius coming back. If he does, then what's to stop them bringing Horus back as well? His soul being destroyed by the emperor instead of 'just' being dead? Also Sanguinius is in a special Sarcophagus that is capable of doing who knows what while Horus isn't. But yeah in the end everyone and everything can return if GW wills it. Horus could easily brought back by Fabius Bile...or rather re-created as clone. So far Abaddon always stopped him and killed the clones but it wouldn't be too hard for GW to write up something so Abaddon can't stop him this one last time. I hope they don't tho tbh since unlike BA who have no Primarch level being around (yet) the Black Legion has Abaddon who can still get buffed by GW....also it's the Black Legion now, not the original Legion anymore. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/331925-could-sanguinius-come-back/#findComment-4682893 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 Could he? Yes - GW are masters of their own fluff and can Deus Ex Machina anything they wanted, including Sanguinius' death. My personal bet though is that seeing as we have the Sanguinor, who is already (in fluff) a Greater Daemon level power house unto himself, we'll probably see some sort of story hook happen where he'll absorb the soul of Sanguinius and gain his power, being a different but similar entity entirely. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/331925-could-sanguinius-come-back/#findComment-4682903 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jolemai Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 Didn't we already have a thread about whether and how Sanguinius could return? I can't find it anymore....maybe a mod moved it or something? lol Not guilty. It's probably floating somewhere beyond page three... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/331925-could-sanguinius-come-back/#findComment-4682915 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 Didn't we already have a thread about whether and how Sanguinius could return? I can't find it anymore....maybe a mod moved it or something? lol Not guilty. It's probably floating somewhere beyond page three... I looked back till page 6...unless the OP wrote Sanguinius wrong I couldn't find it. :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/331925-could-sanguinius-come-back/#findComment-4682927 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indefragable Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 Didn't we already have a thread about whether and how Sanguinius could return? I can't find it anymore....maybe a mod moved it or something? lol Not guilty. It's probably floating somewhere beyond page three... Page THREE??!!?! You better appease the machine spirits and make sure your Gellar Fields are at full power if you go that far back! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/331925-could-sanguinius-come-back/#findComment-4682929 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machine God Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 He'll come back when my one comes back! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/331925-could-sanguinius-come-back/#findComment-4682935 Share on other sites More sharing options...
NTaW Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 When Guilliman was interred into stasis he was still alive (although definitely dying), where Sanguinius was dead on arrival to stasis and they put him in there to keep him pretty for posterity. Is that a true statement? I feel like others who know the fluff better may know the answer. If it is true I'd wager Guilliman's resurrection isn't really a precedent for Sanguinius making a comeback on anything other than a spiritual/psychic/will of the Emperor sort of thing if at all. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/331925-could-sanguinius-come-back/#findComment-4682961 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 When Guilliman was interred into stasis he was still alive (although definitely dying), where Sanguinius was dead on arrival to stasis and they put him in there to keep him pretty for posterity. Is that a true statement? I feel like others who know the fluff better may know the answer. If it is true I'd wager Guilliman's resurrection isn't really a precedent for Sanguinius making a comeback on anything other than a spiritual/psychic/will of the Emperor sort of thing if at all. Well we are Vampire/Angels tho....neither aren exactly known for staying dead. :P Everything is open. It just depends what GW wants and how well they'll write it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/331925-could-sanguinius-come-back/#findComment-4682968 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helias_Tancred Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 In short, yes. That's the nature of fantasy/sci-fi literature. With a good reason (or even a bad one) it could happen? Personally I feel it would cheapen his sacrifice, if this is happening across the range of primarchs it would work. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/331925-could-sanguinius-come-back/#findComment-4683178 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mirbeau Posted March 14, 2017 Share Posted March 14, 2017 I hope not, even though it would be great to have him back. I don't like the comic book type plotting a lot of genre writing has - while parts of the wfb end times and 40k time of ending have hit the homeric notes of the HH, other parts seem like an avengers ensemble story - which I'm not at all keen on. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/331925-could-sanguinius-come-back/#findComment-4683231 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted March 14, 2017 Share Posted March 14, 2017 One thing that is sort of a related tid bit to this happens at the end of Master of Mankind... So spoilers: When the Emperor finally takes the fight to the Daemons in the Webway he uses his entire psychic might to do a load of awesome stuff. One such act is to summon the souls of fallen Astartes and other soldiers to fight the Daemons. Among these are what is heavily hinted to be the Soul of Ferrus Manus, or at least his presence in the warp. That has some cool implications, such as confirming the potential "greater Daemon of the Emperor" theories that people throw around, with Saint Celestine and The Sanguinor being similar beings. If true, this means the Sanguinor could be a kind of host that is possessed by Sanguinius in the warp, similar to how Daemons possess humans. His appearances are only during dire times, so when the BA are outputting enough mental and emotional force to let him break from the warp, just like worshipping a Chaos God to summon Daemons. He speaks in riddles and doesn't know anything bar some signs and portents because Sanguinius' soul was shattered, so the Sanguinor only gains a fraction of his power and scattered bits of foresight. Food for thought! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/331925-could-sanguinius-come-back/#findComment-4683306 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sun Reaver Posted March 14, 2017 Author Share Posted March 14, 2017 Could he? Yes - GW are masters of their own fluff and can Deus Ex Machina anything they wanted, including Sanguinius' death. My personal bet though is that seeing as we have the Sanguinor, who is already (in fluff) a Greater Daemon level power house unto himself, we'll probably see some sort of story hook happen where he'll absorb the soul of Sanguinius and gain his power, being a different but similar entity entirely. I kind of like the idea of Sanguinius coming back through the Sanguinor. However, if he does use the Sanguinor as a conduit, do you think his appearance will change to resemble more of a primarch? Or do you think he will remain the same, aesthetically? It would just suck if all the other legion/chapters had primarchs running around and we just have this one guy who isn't even close in stature/presence. He'll come back when my one comes back! Well, Ferrus has come back as a clone, via Fabius Bile. Perhaps he has a clone is lurking out there in the Maelstrom killing EC and taking names. Maybe Fulgrim has him eternally imprisoned as a plaything. When Guilliman was interred into stasis he was still alive (although definitely dying), where Sanguinius was dead on arrival to stasis and they put him in there to keep him pretty for posterity. Is that a true statement? I feel like others who know the fluff better may know the answer. If it is true I'd wager Guilliman's resurrection isn't really a precedent for Sanguinius making a comeback on anything other than a spiritual/psychic/will of the Emperor sort of thing if at all. I believe you are correct in that Sanguinius was put in stasis to preserve his body/glory/legacy. In short, yes. That's the nature of fantasy/sci-fi literature. With a good reason (or even a bad one) it could happen? Personally I feel it would cheapen his sacrifice, if this is happening across the range of primarchs it would work. I agree in that it could cheapen his sacrifice but if there was a way to bring Sanguinius and Ferrus back, I think people would love to see it. Maybe the Emperor becomes the whole order god thing and has them as his greater daemons of light? On a side note, I don't think Dorn is dead. All they found was his hand, right? I hope not, even though it would be great to have him back. I don't like the comic book type plotting a lot of genre writing has - while parts of the wfb end times and 40k time of ending have hit the homeric notes of the HH, other parts seem like an avengers ensemble story - which I'm not at all keen on. Well, I think the avengers ensemble story is happening on both sides, no? We have Magnus now with rumors of Mortarion and Fulgrim on the way. Roboute is the first loyalist back and it seems as if they will be one good, one bad primarch coming back. GS3 did has some shallow writing, but the overall message was pretty cool. I'm sure if they decide to write novels, it will help flesh out the story more. One thing that is sort of a related tid bit to this happens at the end of Master of Mankind... So spoilers: When the Emperor finally takes the fight to the Daemons in the Webway he uses his entire psychic might to do a load of awesome stuff. One such act is to summon the souls of fallen Astartes and other soldiers to fight the Daemons. Among these are what is heavily hinted to be the Soul of Ferrus Manus, or at least his presence in the warp. That has some cool implications, such as confirming the potential "greater Daemon of the Emperor" theories that people throw around, with Saint Celestine and The Sanguinor being similar beings. If true, this means the Sanguinor could be a kind of host that is possessed by Sanguinius in the warp, similar to how Daemons possess humans. His appearances are only during dire times, so when the BA are outputting enough mental and emotional force to let him break from the warp, just like worshipping a Chaos God to summon Daemons. He speaks in riddles and doesn't know anything bar some signs and portents because Sanguinius' soul was shattered, so the Sanguinor only gains a fraction of his power and scattered bits of foresight. Food for thought! Once again, I love this idea! Do you think that the Sanguinor is already possessed by Sanguinius' spirit? Or its just an unconscious manifestation of it? Or something else entirely? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/331925-could-sanguinius-come-back/#findComment-4683328 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted March 14, 2017 Share Posted March 14, 2017 Yeah, I think that Sanguinius' fractured spirit has found a partial home in the Sanguinor - who, is sort of like a host who doesn't really know what's going on but gets overtaken and knows he has a great purpose in what he's doing, even if it is not his own actions and free will. I'd also wager that Sanguinius' spirit is totally unaware of what it's doing in the material realm, it's just manifesting when and where it can when the psychic choir from his beloved sons becomes large enough to summon him. He then swoops in, back breaks a fool (Kha'banda) and is gone when the day is won because it's all on base instinct. When the Sanguinor chats to Dante at the end of Shield of Baal, my take on that would be it's one of the fleeting moments where the Sanguinor is just the host and in the material realm, quickly telling Dante of his fractured visions (granted to him by being partly Sanguinius) before he is whisked away to the warp again - he is a Daemon after all. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/331925-could-sanguinius-come-back/#findComment-4683767 Share on other sites More sharing options...
evildrcheese Posted March 14, 2017 Share Posted March 14, 2017 I have no interest in Sanguinius coming back from the dead, as mentioned it seems to cheapen his sacrifice. I could get on board with some kind of psychic manifestation of Sanguineous' wrath though. EDC Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/331925-could-sanguinius-come-back/#findComment-4683936 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sun Reaver Posted March 14, 2017 Author Share Posted March 14, 2017 In response to cheapening the sacrifice he made, I found the following paragraph in another forum."Except that the point of Sanguinius' sacrifice is not cheapened at all. Sanguinius, if he is to be ressurected, died willingly and with no knowledge of a potential return, as far as we know. That is the point of his sacrifice, he went into it headfirst out of loyalty to his father and love for mankind, even if it meant giving his life. Hell, he was ready to give himself to chaos in order to save his sons. Just because person A returns from death does not mean that the "message" behind its death is lost or negated. That is not how writing works. Otherwise you might just as well argue that Jesus sacrifice for humanity is cheapened by his ressurection (a radical example here and only if we consider it as a purely textual work, which I am doing for the sake of this argument). Depending on the nature of his return and how it is implemented, it might very well work out. Sanguinius does not even know that the emperor died, he never saw the heresy's aftermath. That right there is potential for strife and character. Even Guillaume was dismayed and disgusted by the Imperium into which he awoke, seeing the ultramarines as naught but a pale shadow of what they were, completely oblivious to the glory of the age of men such as Thiel, Gage etc. Again, a very interesting reaction, which I hoped for, and wish that it is taken up again in ongoing fiction" - The Observer I'm really interested on the idea that the Sanguinor doesn't really know what its doing. Its just like a psychic entity - similar to a chaos god in a way. Now, you say he is a daemon. Does daemon mean automatically bad? I ask this because anger, pleasure, pestilence, and change created for malign entities in the warp. But what about other human emotions that are equally as powerful? Love, justice, etc. We don't have "good" emotional entities creating spawn to spread their emotion further. I guess what I am asking is - can only "bad" things manifest in the warp? I know the LOTD exisit, but asides from them what else? Kind of gives the Sanguinor a more malevolent aspect. Also, do you think RG would remember the Sanguinor if they met? I would love to get his viewpoint on it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/331925-could-sanguinius-come-back/#findComment-4684033 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted March 14, 2017 Share Posted March 14, 2017 To put it a slightly different way... Let's say a certain miracle-working character from religion, who was said to have sacrificed himself for humanities sins came back today, 2000 years later. I think the vast majority of his practicing followers wouldn't say it cheapened his sacrifice and would more be overjoyed that their lord and savior has returned ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/331925-could-sanguinius-come-back/#findComment-4684057 Share on other sites More sharing options...
House Taranis Posted March 14, 2017 Share Posted March 14, 2017 I think that the Sanguinor is the spirit of Sanguinius and that his soul survived somehow. The only problem is that if they bring back Sanguinius, they might have to bring back Horus Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/331925-could-sanguinius-come-back/#findComment-4684202 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Unseen Posted March 14, 2017 Share Posted March 14, 2017 Except that it's stated multiple times that the Emperor didn't just kill Horus, he destroyed his soul as well, to prevent the chaos gods from doing just that. Think balefire. I don't think Horus, even at the height of his powers, had the ability to do that to anyone, much less to a primarch. I'd be fine with a fragment or soul of Sanguinius being incarnate in the Sanguinor. It makes the most sense, since it's been established that the Sanguinor has an aura effect on all blood angels similar to that as a Primarch on their sons, and he can pile drive bloodthirsters. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/331925-could-sanguinius-come-back/#findComment-4684305 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indefragable Posted March 14, 2017 Share Posted March 14, 2017 I've stated 500 times in other places why I don't think he should be brought back. The short version: -it makes the BA stronger narratively to have to go on without him. Think Aragon taking charge after Gandalf...wait...Gandalf comes back <face palm>. Ok, more like Rocky manning up after coach dies in Rocky 3 and Apollo Creed dies in Rocky 4. Part of what makes the BA so interesting is that they are kids learning to cope without their parents. Fully aware of their own mortality in ways that no other Chapter but the Iron Hands can understand. But where the IH try to expunge those feelings and replace them with the calculus of the machine, the BA embrace it...study it...take it to heart...and then go make the universe a better place as a result <mic drop> -if they brought him back he would have the Sanguinor's stats...aka lame and not worthy of what he should be. I am worried enough they won't do him justice in Angelus...I shiver thinking what the GW that made the Deathwatch Codex, Angel's Blade, and Gathering Storm would do to our beloved Primarch <shudder> Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/331925-could-sanguinius-come-back/#findComment-4684349 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted March 15, 2017 Share Posted March 15, 2017 If the only thing that defines the BA is the loss of Sanguinius then we aren't very interesting are we? He really won't have the Sanguinors stats either, if anything the Sanguinor will get updated to near Guillimans level. Also, GW is not FW in terms of writing staff, especially the Heresy. Angelus will be our Lord Alan Bligh at the helm. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/331925-could-sanguinius-come-back/#findComment-4684448 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkangilos Posted March 15, 2017 Share Posted March 15, 2017 Meh Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/331925-could-sanguinius-come-back/#findComment-4684516 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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