Could Sanguinius come back?

[Helias_Tancred]

If its handled right I could get on board.

[Panzer]

I've stated 500 times in other places why I don't think he should be brought back.

 

The short version:

 

-it makes the BA stronger narratively to have to go on without him. Think Aragon taking charge after Gandalf...wait...Gandalf comes back <face palm>. Ok, more like Rocky manning up after coach dies in Rocky 3 and Apollo Creed dies in Rocky 4.

 

Part of what makes the BA so interesting is that they are kids learning to cope without their parents. Fully aware of their own mortality in ways that no other Chapter but the Iron Hands can understand. But where the IH try to expunge those feelings and replace them with the calculus of the machine, the BA embrace it...study it...take it to heart...and then go make the universe a better place as a result

 

<mic drop>

 

-if they brought him back he would have the Sanguinor's stats...aka lame and not worthy of what he should be.

 

I am worried enough they won't do him justice in Angelus...I shiver thinking what the GW that made the Deathwatch Codex, Angel's Blade, and Gathering Storm would do to our beloved Primarch <shudder>

Dunno man...what should I say....I simply disagree with everything you said there. :D

[House Taranis]

Should I put up a poll to see who wants our beloved Primarch back?

[Panzer]

And what would you do with that knowledge? Useless poll is useless. :D

[Taliesin]

I'd love it if he came back and it would not cheapen his death at the hands of Chaos infused Horus one bit.

[Indefragable]

 

I've stated 500 times in other places why I don't think he should be brought back.

 

The short version:

 

-it makes the BA stronger narratively to have to go on without him. Think Aragon taking charge after Gandalf...wait...Gandalf comes back <face palm>. Ok, more like Rocky manning up after coach dies in Rocky 3 and Apollo Creed dies in Rocky 4.

 

Part of what makes the BA so interesting is that they are kids learning to cope without their parents. Fully aware of their own mortality in ways that no other Chapter but the Iron Hands can understand. But where the IH try to expunge those feelings and replace them with the calculus of the machine, the BA embrace it...study it...take it to heart...and then go make the universe a better place as a result

 

<mic drop>

 

-if they brought him back he would have the Sanguinor's stats...aka lame and not worthy of what he should be.

 

I am worried enough they won't do him justice in Angelus...I shiver thinking what the GW that made the Deathwatch Codex, Angel's Blade, and Gathering Storm would do to our beloved Primarch <shudder>

Dunno man...what should I say....I simply disagree with everything you said there.

 

 

Yea well, that's the beauty of it, I suppose. 

 

I mean, TBH, we know so little about Sanguinius. BL's silence on him has been deafening (seriously, look at how little the BA/Sangy have been in any of the entire HH series). So, IMO, I can understand that people want "our guy" badly because he's received minimal (let alone quality) attention in the series that in many ways should be partially about him. I get that. But even still....to me it's looking backwards instead of forwards. Yes, the entire setting of 40k is "holy cow! you have a FLOPPY DISK!!!! That's so much better than my 250GB iPhone!", but the BA's "thing" is about making the galaxy a better place. Sanguinius, and by extension his sons, are about hope: hope for a better future. And working towards that. I think Sanguinius would be mad if his sons were moping around hoping for him to return. Rather, he would want them to pick themselves up and keep working for the future no matter what. Make the galaxy a better place......by knocking heads around with angelic fury. 

 

To me, it's like Luke moping about how Obi Wan died, whereas Obi Wan's sacrifice was intentional to make Luke that much stronger/wiser/better. "You can strike me down, Darth, but I shall become more powerful than you can possible imagine." 

 

Again, agree to disagree.

[Panzer]

 

 

I've stated 500 times in other places why I don't think he should be brought back.

 

The short version:

 

-it makes the BA stronger narratively to have to go on without him. Think Aragon taking charge after Gandalf...wait...Gandalf comes back <face palm>. Ok, more like Rocky manning up after coach dies in Rocky 3 and Apollo Creed dies in Rocky 4.

 

Part of what makes the BA so interesting is that they are kids learning to cope without their parents. Fully aware of their own mortality in ways that no other Chapter but the Iron Hands can understand. But where the IH try to expunge those feelings and replace them with the calculus of the machine, the BA embrace it...study it...take it to heart...and then go make the universe a better place as a result

 

<mic drop>

 

-if they brought him back he would have the Sanguinor's stats...aka lame and not worthy of what he should be.

 

I am worried enough they won't do him justice in Angelus...I shiver thinking what the GW that made the Deathwatch Codex, Angel's Blade, and Gathering Storm would do to our beloved Primarch <shudder>

Dunno man...what should I say....I simply disagree with everything you said there.

 

 

Yea well, that's the beauty of it, I suppose. 

 

I mean, TBH, we know so little about Sanguinius. BL's silence on him has been deafening (seriously, look at how little the BA/Sangy have been in any of the entire HH series). So, IMO, I can understand that people want "our guy" badly because he's received minimal (let alone quality) attention in the series that in many ways should be partially about him. I get that. But even still....to me it's looking backwards instead of forwards. Yes, the entire setting of 40k is "holy cow! you have a FLOPPY DISK!!!! That's so much better than my 250GB iPhone!", but the BA's "thing" is about making the galaxy a better place. Sanguinius, and by extension his sons, are about hope: hope for a better future. And working towards that. I think Sanguinius would be mad if his sons were moping around hoping for him to return. Rather, he would want them to pick themselves up and keep working for the future no matter what. Make the galaxy a better place......by knocking heads around with angelic fury. 

 

To me, it's like Luke moping about how Obi Wan died, whereas Obi Wan's sacrifice was intentional to make Luke that much stronger/wiser/better. "You can strike me down, Darth, but I shall become more powerful than you can possible imagine." 

 

Again, agree to disagree.

 

Who said anything about BA moping around hoping for him to return? You seriously confuse Blood Angels with Blood Angel player here.

Blood Angels don't give a f whether Sanguinius comes back or not. For them that possibility doesn't even exist. He is dead and dead people don't return unless they are perpetuals which Sanguinius obviously isn't.

The option of him returning is entirely a thing from a players perspective with player knowledge about the universe and that there is someone who can make anything happen because he is the creator of the universe' future.

 

The thing tho is that I don't share your view of cheapening his sacrifice or anything like that at all by him returning. His sacrifice still happened under the same circumstances with the same intentions. He coming back 10k years later wouldn't change anything.

BA have to go on without him? Please....they did that and never even thought about doing otherwise. He coming back would be something equal to icing on the cake. A bonus to what BA are. It wouldn't magically change the past 10k years. It wouldn't invalidate everything they did.

Those kind of arguments only work if we assume that both Sanguinius and BA as a chapter knew he'd come back...which they obviously didn't. At least not without a HUGE retcon.

[Indefragable]

 

 

 

I've stated 500 times in other places why I don't think he should be brought back.

 

The short version:

 

-it makes the BA stronger narratively to have to go on without him. Think Aragon taking charge after Gandalf...wait...Gandalf comes back <face palm>. Ok, more like Rocky manning up after coach dies in Rocky 3 and Apollo Creed dies in Rocky 4.

 

Part of what makes the BA so interesting is that they are kids learning to cope without their parents. Fully aware of their own mortality in ways that no other Chapter but the Iron Hands can understand. But where the IH try to expunge those feelings and replace them with the calculus of the machine, the BA embrace it...study it...take it to heart...and then go make the universe a better place as a result

 

<mic drop>

 

-if they brought him back he would have the Sanguinor's stats...aka lame and not worthy of what he should be.

 

I am worried enough they won't do him justice in Angelus...I shiver thinking what the GW that made the Deathwatch Codex, Angel's Blade, and Gathering Storm would do to our beloved Primarch <shudder>

Dunno man...what should I say....I simply disagree with everything you said there.

 

 

Yea well, that's the beauty of it, I suppose. 

 

I mean, TBH, we know so little about Sanguinius. BL's silence on him has been deafening (seriously, look at how little the BA/Sangy have been in any of the entire HH series). So, IMO, I can understand that people want "our guy" badly because he's received minimal (let alone quality) attention in the series that in many ways should be partially about him. I get that. But even still....to me it's looking backwards instead of forwards. Yes, the entire setting of 40k is "holy cow! you have a FLOPPY DISK!!!! That's so much better than my 250GB iPhone!", but the BA's "thing" is about making the galaxy a better place. Sanguinius, and by extension his sons, are about hope: hope for a better future. And working towards that. I think Sanguinius would be mad if his sons were moping around hoping for him to return. Rather, he would want them to pick themselves up and keep working for the future no matter what. Make the galaxy a better place......by knocking heads around with angelic fury. 

 

To me, it's like Luke moping about how Obi Wan died, whereas Obi Wan's sacrifice was intentional to make Luke that much stronger/wiser/better. "You can strike me down, Darth, but I shall become more powerful than you can possible imagine." 

 

Again, agree to disagree.

 

Who said anything about BA moping around hoping for him to return? You seriously confuse Blood Angels with Blood Angel player here.

Blood Angels don't give a f whether Sanguinius comes back or not. For them that possibility doesn't even exist. He is dead and dead people don't return unless they are perpetuals which Sanguinius obviously isn't.

The option of him returning is entirely a thing from a players perspective with player knowledge about the universe and that there is someone who can make anything happen because he is the creator of the universe' future.

 

The thing tho is that I don't share your view of cheapening his sacrifice or anything like that at all by him returning. His sacrifice still happened under the same circumstances with the same intentions. He coming back 10k years later wouldn't change anything.

BA have to go on without him? Please....they did that and never even thought about doing otherwise. He coming back would be something equal to icing on the cake. A bonus to what BA are. It wouldn't magically change the past 10k years. It wouldn't invalidate everything they did.

Those kind of arguments only work if we assume that both Sanguinius and BA as a chapter knew he'd come back...which they obviously didn't. At least not without a HUGE retcon.

 

 

I'm a bit confused: I think we are actually saying much the same thing: that the BA are stronger as a result of Sanguinius' passing.

 

And yes, Luke in my analogy = BA players, not necessarily the in-universe BA themselves. 

 

The difference is that for me, Sanguinius coming back adds less than him staying dead. Much of the previous canon, and even tidbits throughout the BL HH series, all point to Sanguinius being one of the top 3 (or 5...debatable like all things) Primarchs. It would be similar to Horus (not a half-baked clone) coming back in his prime. That would be a sea change for the side of Chaos. Sanguinius's return would change the setting in ways that even RG' can't.

 

Anything less just makes Sanguinius worse than he deserves. 

 

I don't want to argue or tear down your hopes and dream, so please don't take anything I am saying in an inflammatory tone. 

 

Again, agree to disagree and you keep doing your thing and I'll keep doing mine and we'll be friends. I don't want to dominate this thread.

 

Gripe about GW's abilities:

Hidden Content

Especially since they would never allow him to be as good as "Spiritual Liege" RG, let alone potentially even--dare I imagine it--better!  I would rather him stay dead than come back in a half- -ed manner. And let's be honest, it's far more likely that GW messes him up than do him justice (see Sanguinor stats). I guess that's the crux of it for me: you think of the conditions it would take to raise a Primarch from the dead (like actual, confirmed-by-a-doctor, we've-seen-the-body-and-poked-it-with-a-stick dead)...and that would take some serious....juice*. The only ways I can conceive of it happening are pretty much deus ex machina to the max, and Gathering Storm has given us enough of those to last a lifetime. 

 

 

*Juice:

I don't even know what could do that, so I just say "juice" as a blanket term to cover any sort of means of any type to do something like that  I mean, what do you want to see, Cawl walk in and wave a magic wand? Some secret potion? If he's had that this whole time....why hasn't he used it?

 

If it's psychic shenanigans....who could possibly be powerful enough to cook that up? The Emperor getting off his throne and coming to Baal to wave a psychic wand? But you see, that means that we've already gone to Ludicrous Speed because the Emperor has returned!

 

Do we really want xenos or chaos shenanigans raising him up? I doubt it. 

 

[Panzer]

 

Gripe about GW's abilities:

Hidden Content

Especially since they would never allow him to be as good as "Spiritual Liege" RG, let alone potentially even--dare I imagine it--better!  I would rather him stay dead than come back in a half- -ed manner. And let's be honest, it's far more likely that GW messes him up than do him justice (see Sanguinor stats). I guess that's the crux of it for me: you think of the conditions it would take to raise a Primarch from the dead (like actual, confirmed-by-a-doctor, we've-seen-the-body-and-poked-it-with-a-stick dead)...and that would take some serious....juice*. The only ways I can conceive of it happening are pretty much deus ex machina to the max, and Gathering Storm has given us enough of those to last a lifetime. 

 

 

*Juice:

I don't even know what could do that, so I just say "juice" as a blanket term to cover any sort of means of any type to do something like that  I mean, what do you want to see, Cawl walk in and wave a magic wand? Some secret potion? If he's had that this whole time....why hasn't he used it?

 

If it's psychic shenanigans....who could possibly be powerful enough to cook that up? The Emperor getting off his throne and coming to Baal to wave a psychic wand? But you see, that means that we've already gone to Ludicrous Speed because the Emperor has returned!

 

Do we really want xenos or chaos shenanigans raising him up? I doubt it. 

 

 

Oh don't worry about my hopes and dreams. I'm not exactly hoping for him to return but I simply disagree with your logic while being more on the "would be cool if he returns"-side.

 

Also yes GW writing is more often than not bad. That's why I usually only take the interesting bits of fluff and forget about the rest (as good as possible). Worked pretty well so far.

About the psychic shenanigans. Well I'm one of those who supports the idea of the Emperor getting killed by Cypher and becoming a warp entity with full control over his powers allowing much more 'miracles' to happen. And if not that...well the returning of the primarchs and Cadias fall set loose a LOT of warpstorms in the galaxy so pretty much anything can happen from there on. Could easily get explained with Sanguinius' soul finally being able to find a stable path back due all those warpstorms (possibly by the help of Mephiston) etc.

 

Edit: Am I the only one who is annoyed by how incredibly bad this forum is when it comes to formating text? Beginning with copy&paste from other pages (font background etc.), not having the pure code with tags etc. when quoting and ending with having to refresh the page after posting to actually see your post....

[CrimsonExarch]

I would actually LOVE for Sanguinius to come back. I don't think it would take anything from our Chapter in the slightest. 

[Phiasco]

Not only can he come back, but he most definitely should come back imho of course.  The most common argument against it I've seen is the whole "well if he comes back then his sacrifice means less". I don't buy into that line of thinking. Instead I see it like this. Sanguinius has earned his place at the right hand of the Emperor. Now, in the imperium 's time of greatest need, he leaves his exalted place of honor. He willing departs from the Emperor's rest to come toil again in efforts to save mankind. Looking at it this way, his sense of self sacrifice only increases.

[Charlo]

Brothers, brothers... Why argue?

 

Sanguinius is alive!

 

In all our hearts :P

[Arkangilos]

Not only can he come back, but he most definitely should come back imho of course. The most common argument against it I've seen is the whole "well if he comes back then his sacrifice means less". I don't buy into that line of thinking. Instead I see it like this. Sanguinius has earned his place at the right hand of the Emperor. Now, in the imperium 's time of greatest need, he leaves his exalted place of honor. He willing departs from the Emperor's rest to come toil again in efforts to save mankind. Looking at it this way, his sense of self sacrifice only increases.

Why should he come back? (I'm not against him coming back, but I don't think there is any inherent "should").

[Charlo]

 

Not only can he come back, but he most definitely should come back imho of course. The most common argument against it I've seen is the whole "well if he comes back then his sacrifice means less". I don't buy into that line of thinking. Instead I see it like this. Sanguinius has earned his place at the right hand of the Emperor. Now, in the imperium 's time of greatest need, he leaves his exalted place of honor. He willing departs from the Emperor's rest to come toil again in efforts to save mankind. Looking at it this way, his sense of self sacrifice only increases.

Why should he come back? (I'm not against him coming back, but I don't think there is any inherent "should").

 

If anything because it would make Guilliman probably cry happy tears and give him a bit of a conscience and solid advisor that he looks up to for his upcoming crusade!

[Phiasco]

 

Not only can he come back, but he most definitely should come back imho of course. The most common argument against it I've seen is the whole "well if he comes back then his sacrifice means less". I don't buy into that line of thinking. Instead I see it like this. Sanguinius has earned his place at the right hand of the Emperor. Now, in the imperium 's time of greatest need, he leaves his exalted place of honor. He willing departs from the Emperor's rest to come toil again in efforts to save mankind. Looking at it this way, his sense of self sacrifice only increases.

Why should he come back? (I'm not against him coming back, but I don't think there is any inherent "should").

 

 

I guess mostly because I want him to come back. I could come up with fluffy reason (ie excuses) but honestly it boils down to just that I want him to have 40k rules, story line, and a 40k model in addition to the 30k one we'll get.

[Damon Nightman]

With the plague army and Mortarion rumors, maybe he comes back as an evil zombie? Just his body possessed by a demon and sanguinor/mephiston/Dante have to stop him. At the end, the sanguinor's soul or whatever could take over sanguinius' body and now chaos has to deal with good guy Sanguinius again?

 

How angry would we all be if he came back as a zombie!

[Vindictavio]

I think he will return. GW will point to his absolute faith in the Emperor as being that which ensured a part of his soul did not die.

What I woukd like to see is a return which shows those falling to the Black Rage are not succumbing to visions of the death of Sanguinus - rather that whilst they do indeed share in their Primachs' echoes of the battle for Terra, it is the realisation that Sanguinus isn't dead that shatters their mental state. The return of Sanguinus 'cures' the flaw.

Just my thoughts anyway

[NTaW]

I think he will return. GW will point to his absolute faith in the Emperor as being that which ensured a part of his soul did not die.

What I woukd like to see is a return which shows those falling to the Black Rage are not succumbing to visions of the death of Sanguinus - rather that whilst they do indeed share in their Primachs' echoes of the battle for Terra, it is the realisation that Sanguinus isn't dead that shatters their mental state. The return of Sanguinus 'cures' the flaw.

Just my thoughts anyway

I like how you think, but DC would kinda stop being DC in that case wouldn't they?

[Vindictavio]

 

I think he will return. GW will point to his absolute faith in the Emperor as being that which ensured a part of his soul did not die.

What I woukd like to see is a return which shows those falling to the Black Rage are not succumbing to visions of the death of Sanguinus - rather that whilst they do indeed share in their Primachs' echoes of the battle for Terra, it is the realisation that Sanguinus isn't dead that shatters their mental state. The return of Sanguinus 'cures' the flaw.

Just my thoughts anyway

I like how you think, but DC would kinda stop being DC in that case wouldn't they?

Possibly....but wouldn't the Emperor simply boost the stats of his most loyal marines in the light of their absolute faith? Wouldn't DC simply become the the Angels of absolute faith. Marines who can allow the red thirst to consume them in battle but with the will to rein it in after the battle is won?

[Code 187]

 

Not only can he come back, but he most definitely should come back imho of course. The most common argument against it I've seen is the whole "well if he comes back then his sacrifice means less". I don't buy into that line of thinking. Instead I see it like this. Sanguinius has earned his place at the right hand of the Emperor. Now, in the imperium 's time of greatest need, he leaves his exalted place of honor. He willing departs from the Emperor's rest to come toil again in efforts to save mankind. Looking at it this way, his sense of self sacrifice only increases.

Why should he come back? (I'm not against him coming back, but I don't think there is any inherent "should").

This.

I've got used to him being dead since 2nd ed. Doesn't need to change IMO. I'm all for moving the story on but personally think the Primarchs in general should stick to 30k. It just feels a bit too much like a retcon of what I've known and accepted about the 40k universe since I started playing many moons ago.

 

Maybe I need to get with the times though.

[Arkangilos]

 

 

Not only can he come back, but he most definitely should come back imho of course. The most common argument against it I've seen is the whole "well if he comes back then his sacrifice means less". I don't buy into that line of thinking. Instead I see it like this. Sanguinius has earned his place at the right hand of the Emperor. Now, in the imperium 's time of greatest need, he leaves his exalted place of honor. He willing departs from the Emperor's rest to come toil again in efforts to save mankind. Looking at it this way, his sense of self sacrifice only increases.

Why should he come back? (I'm not against him coming back, but I don't think there is any inherent "should").

This.

I've got used to him being dead since 2nd ed. Doesn't need to change IMO. I'm all for moving the story on but personally think the Primarchs in general should stick to 30k. It just feels a bit too much like a retcon of what I've known and accepted about the 40k universe since I started playing many moons ago.

 

Maybe I need to get with the times though.

Just to throw this out there, I'm not opposed to him being brought back, I was just saying I don't see why he should.

 

Like there isn't a need for him to come back. For me it would all depend on how they do it.

[Phiasco]

 

...I've got used to him being dead since 2nd ed. Doesn't need to change IMO. I'm all for moving the story on but personally think the Primarchs in general should stick to 30k. It just feels a bit too much like a retcon of what I've known and accepted about the 40k universe since I started playing many moons ago.

 

Maybe I need to get with the times though.

 

 

Yeah, that boat has definitely sailed. The entire "primarchs should stick to 30k" has been utterly blown out of the water. Primarchs returning isn't just an inevitability at this point, it's a reality that has already started.

[Code 187]

 

...I've got used to him being dead since 2nd ed. Doesn't need to change IMO. I'm all for moving the story on but personally think the Primarchs in general should stick to 30k. It just feels a bit too much like a retcon of what I've known and accepted about the 40k universe since I started playing many moons ago.

Maybe I need to get with the times though.

 

 

Yeah, that boat has definitely sailed. The entire "primarchs should stick to 30k" has been utterly blown out of the water. Primarchs returning isn't just an inevitability at this point, it's a reality that has already started.

True. I think I'm just stuck in my ways

Accepting that it's already happened, I just keep my fingers crossed that they do the Primarchs (and particularly Sanguinius) justice. The fluff was a massive part of the hook for me when I started playing in my teens and continues to be now.

[Slave to Darkness]

So if Sanguinius returns and 'oh lawdy the Death Company are cured' then you would end up another codex chapter and get rolled into the Ultramarines and friends dex, would you guys be ok with that?

 

As for the point earlier regarding another person returning on our world, he would most probably end up in an asylum after making such claims that he is the Son of God reborn.

[Panzer]

So if Sanguinius returns and 'oh lawdy the Death Company are cured' then you would end up another codex chapter and get rolled into the Ultramarines and friends dex, would you guys be ok with that?

 

As for the point earlier regarding another person returning on our world, he would most probably end up in an asylum after making such claims that he is the Son of God reborn.

Whether the Deathcompany would get cured, changed or remains would be entirely up to GW. Everything is possible.

Also yeah I wouldn't mind getting rolled into the C:SM dex as long as we keep our stuff. :P

 

Also d'uh of course it would be a different scenario in our world. We also have no psyker and don't constantly fight aliens and daemonic stuff.