Could Sanguinius come back?

[Aothaine]

Swinging this back on topic. Lets say GW brings Sanguinius back. What are the resurrection methods you would accept? Space Marines seem to despise cloning in "Talon of Horus" I would imagine that it pretty clear through every chapter except maybe Emperor's Children. But what other ways could they bring him back? Would you even find that acceptable?

 

I still remain solidly on the 'No Primarchs in competitive play' school. 

[Arkangilos]

A warp ghost, like an Imperial Greater Daemon or Legion of the Damned.

[Aothaine]

A warp ghost, like an Imperial Greater Daemon or Legion of the Damned.

 

Ahhh... but are Legion of the Damned actually dead or just mutated by the warp?

[Panzer]

Resurection methods I'd accept? Well a complete reincarnation of body&soul by the Sanguinor (either him becoming Sanguinius or him "joining" Sanguinius corpse to restore him) would be my favorite way of resurection to be honest.

Mephiston is said to have psychic powers on primarch level and he is indeed a special case tho there are others who are equally powerful psykers and have nothing to do with their primarchs so I don't think he'll play any special role in Sanguinius resurection if he comes back. Tho it would be quite interesting to see his reaction and Sanguinius' reaction to Mephiston since after all he IS quite special.

[Arkangilos]

 

 

A warp ghost, like an Imperial Greater Daemon or Legion of the Damned.

Ahhh... but are Legion of the Damned actually dead or just mutated by the warp?

Dead. There are also examples of Ferrus Manus coming back in that fashion during the webway war.

 

Here is from their description on GW website:

 

"The Legion of the Damned are silent warriors whose black armour is adorned with chilling images of bone and fire. Considered by some to be an extension of the Emperor's superhuman will, an eerie glow suffuses their sable armour and their weapons discharge flaming projectiles that can pierce the strongest of armour. Damned Legionnaires appear only in times of greatest need and, with chill precision, turn disaster into victory."

 

So basically daemons of the Emperor.

[Orpheus Black Blood]

I like the fusion idea between the sanguinor and the corpse of Sanguinius. Could lead to an interesting plot if handled correctly.

[The_son_of_Dorn]

If Fabius could clone Horus surely he could clone sanguinius? Thing is, would the Primarchs body be an exact copy? Would the soul of the Primarch be reintroduced to his flesh vessel copy? And could this have an interesting twist?

 

The BA primarch was merely laid low, where as Horus had his soul destroyed. Cold a remnant of his soul find it's way back to the light?

[Panzer]

He probably could clone Sanguinius body but I think any Blood Angel would rather die before letting Fabius anywhere close to Sanguinius body lol

[Arkangilos]

He probably could clone Sanguinius body but I think any Blood Angel would rather die before letting Fabius anywhere close to Sanguinius body lol

-cough- Blood Angel series -cough- XD

[The_son_of_Dorn]

I don't think they would have much choice. Maybe the return of Kyriss the perverse aligned with Fabius or something. A "ploy" to create a false prophet in the form of the winged one. Imagine it, Sanguinius wearing black, engulfed by rage, taking on Robby G, and chaos alike. Only for his soul to break the rage.

 

Either that or something much more GW likely, like say Cawl invents a clone-o-matic 10,000 (years) that makes replicas.......

[TheHarrower]

 

He probably could clone Sanguinius body but I think any Blood Angel would rather die before letting Fabius anywhere close to Sanguinius body lol

-cough- Blood Angel series -cough- XD

 

 

Dude, that's like the Star Wars prequel trilogy. We don't speak of that here.

[Blindhamster]

it's also probably non-canon due to it clashing with official timelines now.

Still, the latter two books (one of which is the one Arkangilos refers to) were much better than the first two.

[Arkangilos]

lol yeah I know, I've been saying both of those statements for a while now :p

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

His return could just be a mystery not everything needs an explanation.

[Aothaine]

His return could just be a mystery not everything needs an explanation.

 

What kind of scientist are you? Everything needs and explanation!

[SnorriSnorrison]

 

Well, it can't be the same as it was before, but there's so many ways to implement such a rule.

It's just that the Flaw can't be a chapter tactic, since it's a genetic illness.

 

Oh, and perhaps fix Lucifer engines! They're pretty "meh" at the moment.

 

Snorri

Why can't the flaw be the Chapter tactic equivalent? It would affect all Infantry, Bikes and Dreadnoughts. Do we have any other unit that should be affected by the flaw? Not saying it will be that but it's definitely not impossible.

 

 

I was actually just splitting hairs here. It can't be a chapter tactic because it's genetic illness that occurs occasionally, not something you can rely on. Back in the day it was just a AWSR, but people have gotten used to use the word chapter tactic since 5th edition Codex: Space Marine, so I was thinking of keeping it that way. To represent the flaw, Blood Angels would need another special rule on top of an actual preferred fighting tactic - which would then needed to be balanced by a drawback or increased point costs.

 

To get back on topic.

If they want to get Sanguinius back, they will. I'd say, that is going to be the death of 40k for me. I don't care about the Primarchs that are just missing or asleep or plowing themselves through the daemonette-houses in the eye of terror, but what is dead should remain so. Nobody ever knew the origins of the Legion of the Damned(right?), they've always been super mysterious and ghost-like appearances of space marines. Sanguinius was not. He died, his death shattered an entire Legion of Marines. Bringing him back would require the most heretic witchcraft.

 

 

Snorri

 

 

edit to slip this one in:

 

I agree 100%, but to be honest I don't think "people who know what Blood Angels are about" even exist. That's the main reason I started the Blood Angel Lore vs. Gameplay Identity thread and in 6 pages no one has really come to any sort of consensus. You look at the most vocal play testers of 40K we have in Reece and co. from Frontline Gaming, and stuff they say about Blood Angels blows my mind. We're the best close combat Space Marine army in the game? Lol. You just need to stack multiple auras? OK. Because adding a tax from a Chaplain, Captain, Corbulo, Dante, and Psychic buffs from a Libby or Libby Dread are what Blood Angels armies are all about.  Do all the characters in the army magically teleport from battle to battle across the entire galaxy? It's so dumb.

 

I fear you are right so far - I don't think GW will lessen our dependancy on characters to git gud in a possible Blood Angels codex. That makes balancing a unit which is already supposed to be good in combat very hard to balance, since you just put two characters which you have to take anyway right next to it and whoopsadaisy that unit eats everything in this game for breakfast. What we could expect, from a commercial point of view, is a codex that pushes infantry sales of existing Blood Angel box-sets. That means they should at least get cheaper :)

 

 

 

Anyway, I look at the Sanguinus as the last great hope, because for the current crop of designers that are at GW creating a beefstick like him is fairly easy to do and they've done it before. They clearly can't figure out what makes a good assault unit good. They can't even adequately do point costs for Angelus Boltguns and Encarmine Blades and don't get me started on how they keep gutting the poor Death Company. I'm not trying to come across as super whiney cry baby about all this. I love 8th edition and what's it done for the hobby. I have a lot of fun playing the Blood Angels now and I have been doing really well, but I just want my army to feel like the Blood Angels again. I want people afraid of assault units and all that. That's the element of the game that I miss and that's the thing I don't have faith they'll be able to bring back without Sanguinius. I hope I'm wrong. Until then, we'll just have to wait and see.

 

 

I guess the point-cost discrepancies were an oversight of the sort we've seen many times by GW - them being sloppy when it comes to writing rules isn't new.

Agree on the Death Company, these guys have been shafted hard - and we don't need another unit to break through light infantry with ease. That's literally 80% of what our troops already do, being Space Marines and having Baal Predators. They need to be the hammer that VAS and Sanguinary Guard can't be, so you'll have a reason to field all three in your army without being redundant.

 

I'll also agree on your last points, for it is the same feeling that I'm hoping for in our new codex. However, I wouldn't hope on the return of our Primarch for that.

[Sete]

Apparently according to the white dwarf top 5 deaths he was strangled by Horus.

[brother_b]

Something I've been considering (besides still being vehemently against any sort of dice-roll "flaw" mechanic for our units) is will every army have a "beat stick" type of super character?

 

I ask this because of the releases of Cawl, RG, Celestine, Magus, Mortarion (upcoming). Other armies still have the likes of Abaddon, etc. Will each army require a hard core super character to function in a competitive environment? Will each army receive a character like that in the form of a primarch or other specialized character?

 

If so then we have to consider the return of Sanguinius, or at the minimum the evolution of someone to that status (Sanguinor, Dante ++, Mephiston, etc).  If GW doesn't include a RG/Magus level character for each army, or perhaps comparable abilities on two or more equally priced characters, then the armies lacking them will be hamstrung and inferior.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I would just stay focused on BA here .

[Lord_Caerolion]

Most armies probably will, even if just to bulk out the number or LoW choices for each army.

 

In regards to Sanguinius, what about the possibility of him pulling a Starchild, and his soul surviving past death. Just imagine it, the number of Death Company imprisoned innthe Tower of Amareo reaches new heights, and the combined psychic resonations tear a hole in the veil, for the Memory of Sanguinius to come through, a blazing angel of wrath and hatred. The Sanguinor restrains it, and offers itself up as a host, for both halves of the Primarch to be made whole once more, both the Wrath and the Glory. Not technically Sanguinius, but a reformation of elements of his original soul, strengthened by the memories and legends of 10,000 years of the worship of the Imperium he saved, and of the sons who carry on his legacy.

[Helias_Tancred]

This has got to be one of the more degenerating threads I've ever seen in the BA forum ;)

 

He's not coming back ... but the ideas range from the more plausible, to the interesting, and many are swimming in the absurd.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Yeah, my absolute preference is that he doesn't come back. One of our key themes is the martyrdom of our Primarch.

[Crimson Ghost IX]

That is not dead which can enternal lie and with strange aeons even death may die...

 

I am still thinking he is not dead and is running around inside his own blood carried within his sons.

The death company etc are just suffering his nightmares etc since he got Horused.

 

He is gonna be undead again even if he is at some point mostly dead beforehand methinks.

[Lord_Caerolion]

So he's copying Malkav. :p

 

I do think he should stay dead though. I have no issue with the Sanguinor becoming a "greater daemon of Sanguinius", or something similar, like an incarnation of his warp-echo, but not him actually reviving and coming back to life.

[Ishagu]

The Blood Angels are thematically similar to vampires, so yes he can totally rise up again.

 

Also, the red thirst and black rage have been cured in the Primaris line so any effect Sanguinius' death had on his sons is no longer prevalent as a genetic flaw in future Blood Angels. Guilliman has decreed that all new Marines are Primaris - there's no reason for any chapter to make the old and now obsolete variant (from a in-universe standpoint).

 

The sacrifice 10k years ago is not lessened by his return. What matters is the fact he was willing to do it, with no promise of return or resurrection.