Could Sanguinius come back?

[Charlo]

Also, the red thirst and black rage have been cured in the Primaris line so any effect Sanguinius' death had on his sons is no longer prevalent as a genetic flaw in future Blood Angels. Guilliman has decreed that all new Marines are Primaris - there's no reason for any chapter to make the old and now obsolete variant (from a in-universe standpoint).

 

Has it?

 

I thought the point was that Cawl left them in because he was ordered to.

 

Or was at least not confirmed at all.

[Ishagu]

People have confused what Cawl actually said.

 

In Dark Imperium he explained to Guilliman that each gene line is specialised for a certain war doctrine, and that they behave and favour a certain style. EG: Alpha Legion like subterfuge, Blood Angels pursue elegance and art, Ultras are strict and disciplined, Night Lords are cruel, etc.

He was making an argument to bring back the gene lines of the traitor legions so the Imperium has a more complete Marine fighting force in terms of how battles can be executed. Sometimes war calls for Cruelty, infiltration or the combat style the Sons of Horus were famed for.

 

Gene FLAWS, like the Wulfen mutation or black rage are NOT intended, and have been purged from the gene-line. EG: 99.9% of Space Wolf Primaris recruits are successfully transformed into Astartes. (It's why the book was so interested in terms of shaking up the setting and status quo)

[Charlo]

Hmm maybe, that doesn't sound right though... I specifically remember him talking about flaws in the geneseed that could be corrected and Guilliman told him to keep them as a part of the Emperor's design.

 

If he's gotten rid of the Flaw/ Canis Helix etc then what is even the point of those chapters?

[Ishagu]

The canis helix isn't intended to mutate the Space Wolves beyond the traits exhibited by someone like Grimnar.

 

The Red Thirst and Black Rage are not intended.

[Sete]

I'm under the impression that Cawl left the particular "flaws" of some chapters because they were intended by the Emperor.

[Panzer]

The way I understood it is that Cawl left the flaws but fixed it as much as possible without removing it. Aka a geneseed reset to pre-heresy times.

[Ishagu]

I'm under the impression that Cawl left the particular "flaws" of some chapters because they were intended by the Emperor.

Not flaws, but quirks. He left in stuff that makes the Astartes suited to what they do best.

He was suggesting that the Imperium would better wage war if they introduced all 20 Legion gene-lines back into active service. He wants to re-open the vaults of even the lost Primarchs.

 

Either way, the Primaris Blood Angels are not haunted by visions or un-controllable rage.

[Arkangilos]

I am willing to bet you fifty bucks he did not remove the Red Thirst from the Primaris.

 

Also, the vampire thing that the BA has is not the Undead Vampire thing. They are vampires only in that they have a thirst for blood and live longer, and the turning process.

[Karhedron]

Here is the exact quotation from Dark Imperium.

 

‘What of those gene-lines with more deeply ingrained flaws?’ asked Guilliman. ‘The Blood Angels and the Space Wolves?’

Cawl’s research, and his own reading, had uncovered dangerous faults that the sons of both gene-lines in question had done their best to hide.

‘The corrected flaws in the new gene-stocks show no signs of regression to previous unstable states, whether in successor Chapters composed entirely of the new Primaris Space Marine type, or in already established Chapters. Elimination entirely of the more idiosyncratic traits of some gene-lines is, however, not to be recommended. They form part of the Emperor’s original vision, and are, in any case, crucial to their proper function. The improved gene-seed of Ninth and Sixth Legion stock is operating within acceptable parameters.

So, Cawl states that he has eliminated "flaws" but not "idiosyncratic traits" that represent the character of that gene-line. I think that the Black Rage is definitely a flaw, the Red Thirst is more ambiguous as it is part of the Blood Angels character favouring close combat engagements but also degenerating into blood-lust.

 

Cawls claims to have fixed the flaws without changing the character of those legions but this raises several questions.

 

1. Is the Black Rage a flaw that can be fixed at a purely genetic level or does it also have a psychic component?

2. Does the Red Thirst still affect Primaris Marines and if so, how much? Do they still favour close quarters but without physically hungering to drink blood?

3. Cawl has made a lot of changes. Is he really as smart as he thinks he is?

[Arkangilos]

And keep in mind, as of right now the Primaris don't suffer from the Black Rage, but the same thing happened when they fixed the Lamenters. The onset of the Rage takes a while.

[Panzer]

And keep in mind, as of right now the Primaris don't suffer from the Black Rage, but the same thing happened when they fixed the Lamenters. The onset of the Rage takes a while.

Same with Knights of Blood and the Red Thirst. Just because the symptoms aren't showing yet doesn't mean they are gone for good.

[Indefragable]

The Red Thirst can be argued to be a physiological effect of the gene-seed.

 

The Black Rage, not so much since it was caused by a force external to each Astartes' biology. It is closer to being psyker-esque than a simple protein strand in the DNA to be removed. Are there biological components that make certain BA more prone to it than others? Quite possibly. But it would not make any sense to me to have that quirk "fixed" in a laboratory. That's like saying Dr. Nick cured the evil or good in human beings. Who knew the removal of protein strand #62478643V524G7 was all it took to make the human race perfect?

[TheHarrower]

Would be weird if they cured either. That would mean going further, no more Death Company and such. While that sounds crazy to me as Death Company are my favorite unit, I do think it could make for some cool fluff changes. Has it ever been confirmed that marines can undergo surgery and become Primaris? I know it's been talked about before, but hasn't shown up in the fluff at all as far as I know.

[Jolemai]

Folks, this thread is on thin ice as it is. Care to steer it back on topic?

[Charlo]

Folks, this thread is on thin ice as it is. Care to steer it back on topic?

 

It's an interesting topic... Maybe let's make a new one? 

[Karhedron]

It's an interesting topic... Maybe let's make a new one?

I agree. Everyone is playing nicely now. While the subject may have wandered off the OP somewhat, some of the best conversations being from a completely different subject to the one they end up on.

[The_son_of_Dorn]

I don't think we are going to get a clear answer on this matter.

 

Yes would be nice if he did return, most likely will not return though. Not without opening the flood gates to the likes of Horus or Rogal Dorn returning,

[RapatoR]

The sacrifice 10k years ago is not lessened by his return. What matters is the fact he was willing to do it, with no promise of return or resurrection.

I have a question: Would you be OK with return of Horus? Or Curze, for that matter?

[Ishagu]

Horus' soul was obliterated so I don't see how he'd return. Maybe a soulless clone?

The return of the Warmaster would be a betrayal of the current setting, in effect it would be the same as returning the Emperor.

Look at Guilliman's resurrection. It ushers new models, new lore, but by and large it's still the same setting with the same conflicts. More Primarchs could mean more internal political strife - but that's the same as the bickering of the High Lords.

 

In the case of Sanguinius - His body is kept inside a Sarcophagus and to this day is used in the creation of new Blood Angels (Though this might change with the introduction of Primaris?)

 

As for Curze, where is his body? He never had the plot luxury of being lost in another dimension where time doesn't flow correctly or being kept asleep/in stasis/in a Sarcophagus etc.

[pandion40]

I dont think horus should return any time soon if at all. I'd put him with the emperor as an end of setting thing or leave him dead

 

Curze I'd put similar to sanguinius in that it would depend how he returned. The quality of the story GW tells about a possible return of Sanguinius or Curze will decide how i feel about it.

 

There is one diference between Sanguinious and curze though. sanguinius was willing to die, but he didn't want to. If Curze died as we're told he wanted to die, that was the point.

 

As for ferrus I like the Legion of the damned theory for him.

 

If Sanguinius returns id want it to be as somthing like a deamon prince of the Emperor, a warp presence not a mortal being. If they bring Curze back I think the best way would be to reveal he never really died. He faked it.

[Karhedron]

If you want an almost-Horus then you could have Adabbon finally ascend to Daemonhood and release a suitably upsized model of him to represent him as a Prince of Chaos Undivided.

[Arkangilos]

His body is NOT used. They specifically put his blood in the Sanguinary Priests for the process. That's why there is geneseed problems. The bloodline is diluted each generation.

 

Stop spreading fake news Isagu.

 

It's done via a process called Insanguination, in which they drink blood from the blood chalice containing the Priests Blood.

 

Before all of this the priest is actually injected with the blood of Sanguinius (coming from other priests), and they later bleed themselves back into the grail for other priests to be injected with, or for initiates to drink. The constant circulation of Sanguinius's blood through the Priests is what keeps his blood going.

[Bat33.1]

There is the 'plot twist' 'plot armour' possiblity of a return with GW any time they like. 

 

Besides who says that Horus killed Sanguinius anyway? There is the urban myth version that Sanguinius was 'put down' by the Emperor as Sanguinius turned to his true calling of chaos in the final showdown which allowed Horus the opening he needed to put the hurt on Big E because we all know even a super boosted Horus was no match for the Big E. Which makes Sanguinius a demon primarch and demons can heal or reform themselves in mysterious ways so can always come back. 

 

Far fetched for sure. Follows fluff as we know it? Nope, no way. But can anyone here say where primaris marines appear in the background fluff until 8th edition arrived? Despite an Imperium so backward looking that they have been using STC designs for 10,000 years and to change them is heretical? Hey guys look at this cool new Grav tank I've just built thousands of and my new super friends dreadnought. 

 

I don't think GW will bring back Sanguinius but could they? If they wanted to yes 100% yes they would find a way.

[Karhedron]

Laurie Goulding has said that the existing fluff about the duel between Horus and the Emperor is obsolete. They will be redoing the final confrontation as part of the HH series. This will probably include Sanguinius' last stand as well since in the original fluff, he dies "offscreen".

 

In the end the emperor stands alone. Then and only then is he allowed to enter the presence of Horus. The Warmaster bestrides the body of a broken angel. Behind him, the tortured earth fills the viewport, a bauble for Horus to seize with one clawed hand. Corpses of massacred marines lie everywhere.

 

Face glowing with internal bloodlight, Horus speaks. "Poor Sanguinius. I offered him a position of power in the new order. He could have sat at the right hand of a god. Alas, he chose to align himself with the losing side."

[Bat33.1]

Laurie Goulding has said that the existing fluff about the duel between Horus and the Emperor is obsolete. They will be redoing the final confrontation as part of the HH series. This will probably include Sanguinius' last stand as well since in the original fluff, he dies "offscreen".

 

In the end the emperor stands alone. Then and only then is he allowed to enter the presence of Horus. The Warmaster bestrides the body of a broken angel. Behind him, the tortured earth fills the viewport, a bauble for Horus to seize with one clawed hand. Corpses of massacred marines lie everywhere.

 

Face glowing with internal bloodlight, Horus speaks. "Poor Sanguinius. I offered him a position of power in the new order. He could have sat at the right hand of a god. Alas, he chose to align himself with the losing side."

 

 

See this is where the fluff could be changed to anything, not a single character in that final encounter has spoken since that day and there were no living witnesses to the final act of the Heresy. We have canon, we have fluff but we all know these have changed in the last 30 years let alone the 10k years that GW have to fool around with.