DA 8th Edition Info

[Crazy Jay]

"unless the ability in question says otherwise, a model with a rule like this is always within range of the effect"

 

Under Aura Abilities, side note on one of the shooting pages.

Exactly! I'm really anxious to prove to my gaming friends that my bikes aren't going anywhere.

[templarphoenix]

Cypher and Fallen has "Imperium" Faction Keyword.

 

So Dark Angel + Fallen is possible...omg

[ValourousHeart]

 

So are Combat Shields worth it now, compare to Storm Shields?  1pt cheaper than Storm Shields, and you get to keep your sidearm.

 

Doesn't feel like it. Still no +1 for 2 CCW and the advantages of a single pistol don't seem to outweigh a 3++. A model with a chainsword and storm shield will get more attacks than a model with a pistol and combat shield.

 

On the plus side, all my ravenwing bikes suddenly have chainswords.

 

 

It looks like you might have miscalculated the number of "attacks" those 2 models each got.

Assuming the same stat line on both models, the chainsword & storm shield model gets +1 CC attack, however the pistol & combat shield gets to shoot in the shooting phase and that shot pretty much has to be directed at the unit they are in CC with.

Net result is an equal number of "attacks".

 

Where the combat shield will shine is on a model that takes a pistol and a CCW of some flavor in addition to the combat shield.

So for example a power sword, pistol & combat shield gets the same number of "attacks" as the chainsword & storm shield did above, but has much better rend on most of the attacks.

 

And a model with a chainsword, pistol & combat shield would get +1 "attack" to the chainsword / storm shield model.

[Berzul]

 

 

 

 

So are Combat Shields worth it now, compare to Storm Shields? 1pt cheaper than Storm Shields, and you get to keep your sidearm.

Doesn't feel like it. Still no +1 for 2 CCW and the advantages of a single pistol don't seem to outweigh a 3++. A model with a chainsword and storm shield will get more attacks than a model with a pistol and combat shield.

 

On the plus side, all my ravenwing bikes suddenly have chainswords.

It looks like you might have miscalculated the number of "attacks" those 2 models each got.

Assuming the same stat line on both models, the chainsword & storm shield model gets +1 CC attack, however the pistol & combat shield gets to shoot in the shooting phase and that shot pretty much has to be directed at the unit they are in CC with.

Net result is an equal number of "attacks".

 

Where the combat shield will shine is on a model that takes a pistol and a CCW of some flavor in addition to the combat shield.

So for example a power sword, pistol & combat shield gets the same number of "attacks" as the chainsword & storm shield did above, but has much better rend on most of the attacks.

 

And a model with a chainsword, pistol & combat shield would get +1 "attack" to the chainsword / storm shield model.

The problem is the saves. 1 point more per model and forgoing the pistol, grants a 3++ over a 5++, which, for such a low model count, means a lot.

 

Consider a squad of 5 (80 pts), all with storm shields (+25), sgt with a powersword (+4), gives you a 5 man 3++ squad all around, with 12 s4 melee attacks and 3 s4 ap-3 attacks, for 109 points.

 

Changing those for combat shields saves you 5 points, dropping the price to 104, but it only gets you the one pistol shot per model. Thats it.

 

So the choice is, 5 points less and you can shoot the pistols, but have only a 5++ save?

 

Or

 

5 points more, and forgo the pistol shots, but you have a 3++ save.

 

Personally Id rather go for survivability. 5 man squad with chainswords and storm shields, sgt with power sword.

 

Ypu can shoot better with other units after all. Terminators shine in that respect, with strong defense AND storm bolters.

 

If I was going to go for a squad that has shields AND shoots, id either trade them for 2+/5++ terminators qith storm bolters, or a vet squad full of combi pr special weapons that does not go into melee at all

[Elios Harg]

 

 

So are Combat Shields worth it now, compare to Storm Shields?  1pt cheaper than Storm Shields, and you get to keep your sidearm.

 

Doesn't feel like it. Still no +1 for 2 CCW and the advantages of a single pistol don't seem to outweigh a 3++. A model with a chainsword and storm shield will get more attacks than a model with a pistol and combat shield.

 

On the plus side, all my ravenwing bikes suddenly have chainswords.

 

 

It looks like you might have miscalculated the number of "attacks" those 2 models each got.

Assuming the same stat line on both models, the chainsword & storm shield model gets +1 CC attack, however the pistol & combat shield gets to shoot in the shooting phase and that shot pretty much has to be directed at the unit they are in CC with.

Net result is an equal number of "attacks".

 

Where the combat shield will shine is on a model that takes a pistol and a CCW of some flavor in addition to the combat shield.

So for example a power sword, pistol & combat shield gets the same number of "attacks" as the chainsword & storm shield did above, but has much better rend on most of the attacks.

 

And a model with a chainsword, pistol & combat shield would get +1 "attack" to the chainsword / storm shield model.

 

The difference is that you can only fire pistols in your shooting phase. Which means pistols get half the extra attacks of a chain sword.

[ValourousHeart]

You make a good point... but turn it around and consider how you played it in 7th.

 

2 Melta or 2 Plasma or 2 Grav were essentially the same price as a single RW biker.

So given your "more survivable" preference that you are claiming here, you would have taken 6 bikes with no gun upgrades over 5 bike with 2 gun upgrades.

 

Just kidding, I am sure you would have forgone the survivability for the fire power in that situation.

I on the other hand always took the extra bike over the guns.

 

Both courses of action have their merits.

​One provides more resilience at the cost of range and offensive power.

The other considers that any models killed at range will be unable to cause damage up close.

 

*EDIT*  

Taking pistols also allows you to fire overwatch, so that would account for additional attacks in your opponent's turn.

The storm shield gives you a better chance to survive combat into a second round of CC.

The pistol gives you a better chance of wiping out your opponent in the first round of CC.

 

My point is that one option isn't clearly better than the other.

Consider Ork boys vs SM TDA... Tons of attacks and a poor save vs few attacks that ignore armor and a great save.

How does it normally work our for you when 30 boys charge your 5 terminators?

Edited June 3, 2017 by ValourousHeart

[jbaeza94]

I'm sorry but what unit has the option for storm shield and combat shield? Veterans are storm shield only, assault sgt are combat shield only. In fact, it looks like only the assault sgt and company champion can take a combat shield, everyone else takes storm shields in this book.

 

The real argument is storm shield vs better cc weapon (wether it be an upgraded pistol or power weapon). They're both comparative in price.

 

EDIT: NVM. I just saw that da vets are special and we get combat shields.

Edited June 3, 2017 by jbaeza94

[Berzul]

I get your point, amd i agree that no one option is 100% better, 100% of the time. But the example is off.

 

Bikes in 7th had Ravenwing Jink saves, and their higher Toughness, both gave them enough survivability, to go for the special weapons over the sixth wound. Also, they were far more mobile which allowed you to better choose your battles. Also, you normally would not use ravenwing bikers to go face the same opponents as you would melee veterans, as their melee weapon choices were A LOT poorer. Finally, hammer of wrath gave you the extra attacks needed to compensate not taking the sixth biker.

 

The two units are just not comparable under the same logic.

 

But, yeah, there are merits in taking the combat shields and keeping the pistols. Im just arguing that this vet squad, i personally, would use to go with my company master or champion, to hunt targets that bolt pistols can too easily shrug off; and that can too easily kill you back as well, which necessitates the better save.

 

Maybe if I took em with plasma pistols, to pack a stronger punch, along with the combat shields and chainswords... but now the squad costs 35 more points, and each loss is a lot heavier.

Edited June 3, 2017 by Berzul

[Berzul]

I'm sorry but what unit has the option for storm shield and combat shield? Veterans are storm shield only, assault sgt are combat shield only. In fact, it looks like only the assault sgt and company champion can take a combat shield, everyone else takes storm shields in this book.

 

The real argument is storm shield vs better cc weapon (wether it be an upgraded pistol or power weapon). They're both comparative in price.

 

EDIT: NVM. I just saw that da vets are special and we get combat shields.

Made me double take there for second XD

Edited June 3, 2017 by Berzul

[Berzul]

Now, I DO think I will try both configurations, though. Althought I still prefer the storm shields, I have become convinced of the better points of the combat shields in their own way.

[Syphid]

Wow, I've started quite the discussion!  I was going to use Plasma Pistols and Combat Shields because I think they look cool and the combo is 9pts cheaper than it was in 7th ed.  No more reason than that!

[Berzul]

It is a very good discusion! :D

[CAM77]

Frontline gaming, who were involved in playtesting 8th edition are having  a livestream on twitch where they have been discussing various factions.  They claim that DA are more powerful now in 8th, than they have ever been.

 

They said that DA had many useful auras that helped them a lot.  They were also big fans of Deathwing Knights, and of course Black Knights.

 

Another quote was that Azrael was perhaps the best chapter master out there.

Edited June 3, 2017 by CAM77

[Interrogator Stobz]

Can Vet Sgts take a SS?

One of my current squads (the old Command Sqd) is 5 men, each with Plasma Gun and SS. I want to keep them the same, can I?

[jbaeza94]

Can Vet Sgts take a SS?

One of my current squads (the old Command Sqd) is 5 men, each with Plasma Gun and SS. I want to keep them the same, can I?

Sorry stobz, the vet sgt can only take items from the sgt equipment list. That does not include storm shield or plasma guns. But being part of the DA veteran squad means he can take a combat shields Edited June 3, 2017 by jbaeza94

[Syphid]

Maybe not specific to DA but...  Scouts can be deployed 9" away from enemy with their "Concealed Positions" rule.  Does this mean they can move 6" and charge on the first turn?

[Syphid]

Frontline gaming, who were involved in playtesting 8th edition are having  a livestream on twitch where they have been discussing various factions.  They claim that DA are more powerful now in 8th, than they have ever been.

 

They said that DA had many useful auras that helped them a lot.  They were also big fans of Deathwing Knights, and of course Black Knights.

 

Another quote was that Azrael was perhaps the best chapter master out there.

 

As Azrael has the Dark Angels keyword, does he benefit from the Chapter Master rule that states all Dark Angels unit's within 6" re-roll failed to hit rolls?  If so, that's pretty amazing.

[rendingon1+]

 

 

Frontline gaming, who were involved in playtesting 8th edition are having a livestream on twitch where they have been discussing various factions. They claim that DA are more powerful now in 8th, than they have ever been.

 

They said that DA had many useful auras that helped them a lot. They were also big fans of Deathwing Knights, and of course Black Knights.

 

Another quote was that Azrael was perhaps the best chapter master out there.

As Azrael has the Dark Angels keyword, does he benefit from the Chapter Master rule that states all Dark Angels unit's within 6" re-roll failed to hit rolls? If so, that's pretty amazing.

Yes. According to the rulebook every model with aura benefits from it. Azrael is indeed the Best chapter master. And this "supreme tactician"...Hahaha, feels so good.

 

Also anybody noticed that black Knights sergeant can throw a melta bomb? Who else can do that?

Edited June 3, 2017 by rendingon1+

[Interrogator Stobz]

 

Can Vet Sgts take a SS?

One of my current squads (the old Command Sqd) is 5 men, each with Plasma Gun and SS. I want to keep them the same, can I?

Sorry stobz, the vet sgt can only take items from the sgt equipment list. That does not include storm shield or plasma guns. But being part of the DA veteran squad means he can take a combat shields

 

That's the way I read it too, thanks for the confirmation. :tu:

[Berzul]

 

 

Can Vet Sgts take a SS?

One of my current squads (the old Command Sqd) is 5 men, each with Plasma Gun and SS. I want to keep them the same, can I?

Sorry stobz, the vet sgt can only take items from the sgt equipment list. That does not include storm shield or plasma guns. But being part of the DA veteran squad means he can take a combat shields

 

That's the way I read it too, thanks for the confirmation.

 

 

Can't believe I missed that. I'm sorry for arguing on a wrong assumption.

 

Indeed, the Company Veterns entry states that the Veterans can take Storm Shields as a replacement for one of their weapons, as well as another melee, special or pistol weapon as a replacement for the other. Also, that the Veteran Sergeant, which would not count as a regular Veteran, can only take Sergeant wargear.

Then, on the particulars of the Dark Angels, it states that any model in the Company Veterans squad can take a combat shield.

 

That would mean that, at best, you could set up the Sergeant with Combat Shield, a Power Weapon, and a Pistol (bolt, grav or plasma), and only the regular Veterans could take Storm Shields and Chainswords.

 

That is not that big a change, but it certainly forces a certain configuration.

 

Now my squad is gonna have to be:

 

1x Veteran Sergeant w/Power Sword, Combat Shield, Plasma Pistol

4x Company Veterans w/Chainswords and Storm Shield.

 

The veterans carry the squad forward, and the Sergeant fires and chops down those more resilient enemies, I guess... actually, this build for the squad looks pretty good to me, I must say.

[FlamingDeth]

It's not a setup I would have really used before en masse, but chainsword + shield would look super badass.

[jbaeza94]

Why not do 4 ss and bolt pistol?

It'll give you a shot at them before even getting in, overwatch, and a shot in while locked in cc (on your turn only though).

I think it's a pretty evenly matched loadout when compared to ss and chainsword.

Better yet, double storm shield. Because sometimes the emperor doesn't protect enough

Edited June 4, 2017 by jbaeza94

[Berzul]

Why not do 4 ss and bolt pistol?

It'll give you a shot at them before even getting in, overwatch, and a shot in while locked in cc (on your turn only though).

I think it's a pretty evenly matched loadout when compared to ss and chainsword.

Better yet, double storm shield. Because sometimes the emperor doesn't protect enough

The double shield sounds so damn crazy it just might work!!!

 

Hahahaha!

 

But, jokes aside, I admit the Chainsword over Bolt Pistol things is ONLY for the sake of coolness.

 

It just looks a lot cooler to me, to have a squad of greenwing knights, sword and shield in hand. Can't really get that with shields and pistols.

[jbaeza94]

I agree ss and sword look good! Rule of cool matters as much as effectiveness! We just need some good looking shields, I'm not a fan of the cross looking ones. Death watch has some cool ones, and kromlech too! I personally will have gunslinger vets. I've always wanted them, and they're much cheaper now, in fact, I can do plasma and grav for the same cost as before!

[durdle-durdle]

1: take a land raider crusader

2: put azreal near it

3: enjoy having nearly 40 shots rerolling to hit with a 4+ invuln land raider. Take multiple for maximum dakka.

4: stick techmarines inside if you don't want friends.

Edited June 4, 2017 by durdle-durdle