DA 8th Edition Info

[Elios Harg]

Where the plasma cannon may be better is against vehicle/monstrous targets, tho I haven't done the math yet. What I did observe, after looking through all the available data is that T7 seems to be the vehicle "standard" toughness. Notable exceptions are Land Raiders, Monoliths and Leman Russ tanks. Actually, Leman Russ tanks may even warrant a separate thread...

 

Oh, and the 36" range on plasma. I never found the extra range of the cyclones to be worth much, given SB were 24, but since cyclones and plasma are now both 36", I really see very little case for cyclones in any capacity.

 

Ezz

Ah, I didn't notice the drop in range on cyclones. I think that the cyclone will outperform the plasma cannon against just about everything. The question is whether or not it is worth the extra points to do so. It's vastly greater damage output and a guaranteed 2 shots vs. random means it will take bigger chunks off vehicles (and does so with no risk to the bearer). It will be more effective at killing heavy infantry with multiple wounds and vehicles because the 1 pt higher S will offset the 1 less AP against T 7-8 vehicles and the D6 damage will push it over the top against even lighter vehicles where the plasma gets an AP advantage. The risks of supercharge simply make it not worth doing. The cyclone is clearly better. The question is whether it is 2.5 times better. Against single wound heavy infantry (i.e. space marines), it is not (~1 dead space marine per turn for CML/SB vs ~.56 dead space marine per turn for PC = 1.79 times better). Against, multiple wound heavy infantry (i.e. primaris marines), it is pretty close (~.69 dead primaris marines per turn for CML/SB vs. ~.28 = 2.46 times better). Against light vehicles (T < 7), it is (~1.85 wounds removed per turn for CML/SB vs. ~.56 wounds removed per turn for PC = 3.30 times better). Against medium vehicles (T 7), it is (CML/SB remains the same, PC drops to ~.42 = 4.40 times better). Finally, against heavy vehicles (i.e. Land Raider T8, 2+), it still is ( ~.88 CML vs. ~.22 PC = 4 times better; also the storm bolter is not included here as ideally you would fire it against a nearby unit against which it would be more effective). Against light infantry (i.e. guardsmen), the CML/SB will average about 2 kills and the plasma cannon will average ~.83, but the plasma will also only kill a maximum of 3 while the CML/SB combo will kill a maximum of 10. So against light infantry, it does not quite earn its points on average, but does so on potential. In almost every case, the CML/SB combo seems to be worth its points or a bargain vs. plasma cannons. The random number of shots really hurts plasma cannons and the chance of getting killed makes super charging a desperation only tactic at worst and a risky tactic (when combined with re-rolls) at best. 

 

Against the assault cannon, it is pretty clear that the plasma cannon loses against anything below T6 or above T7 due to the assault cannon's rate of fire. Even in an optimal situation for the PC, firing super charged at terminators, it only has a .55 probability of killing a terminator vs. .33 for the assault cannon.  Against a land raider, the super charged PC and the assault cannon have the same chance of dealing damage (~.33), but the PC will strip 2 wounds if successful. In either situation, not super charging gives the assault cannon a significant edge (about 50% better than the plasma cannon). Amusingly, against T6 3+ models, something I would have suspected the non-super charged plasma cannon to win against, the assault cannon still outperforms (~.75 to ~.44). Against T7, the assault cannon is still about 50% more effective. Even super charging doesn't help much since the assault cannon is still about 10% more likely to strip wounds while the super charged PC does double wounds and has a 1 in 6 chance of blowing up, not a very good trade off.

 

Ultimately, it seems plasma cannons are just a poor choice relative to other options. This holds true for tactical squads, devastators, and dreadnoughts as well (although at least dreadnoughts can more readily risk super charging). It seems that they need to get an increased rate of fire, more damage, and reducing the gets hot component to merely causing a mortal wound (and then giving the heavy plasma cannon something else to set it apart from the plasma cannon such as more AP or slightly higher damage).  Then a terminator would be more willing to use super charging. For now, the best heavy weapons options on your terminators are assault cannon and cyclone missile launchers. The heavy flamer is also probably not worth its points due to randomness and short range. On average it will kill 1 marine per turn, I don't have time to do a full analysis. However, it's profile being very similar to an assault cannon means it will have very similar damage output with less reliable rate of fire and much shorter range. Its also useless on deep strike. My guess is that it is not worth the 4 points saved over the assault cannon. If it were like 10-11 points and had a range of 10" then it would be a much better option since it would be usable after teleport.

 

I would like to see hand flamers, flamers and heavy flamers revised to be 3, 6, and 9 points respectively with a 10" range, the heavy flamer being changed to assault, and all other aspects the same (D6 automatic hits, 3-5 S scale, -1 AP on heavy, etc.). This allows them to be usable after deep striking and costed appropriately for their randomness while the pistol use is offset by the assault use of the other two and the points differences are purely in S and AP. Assault is of limited utility since other weapons in the squad cannot be used, thus it should not be worth a lot of points. On the other hand, it could be quite useful in squads that can take all flamers (like company veterans), but still not worth paying more than 6 points for a flamer and ~8 for a combi-flamer.

[shabbadoo]

 

Anyway, on the topic of transports, I think they're going to be used for the 50% of troops on the ground for the deep striking units and are expected to die fairly quickly afterwards. Since you can assault out of all transports now, they won't do much after turn 2 anyway unless they have substantial firepower.

I haven't seen how disembarking works yet. Can the vehicle move, then the unit disembark, and then the unit advance/shoot or shoot/charge?

[marti350]

 

 

Anyway, on the topic of transports, I think they're going to be used for the 50% of troops on the ground for the deep striking units and are expected to die fairly quickly afterwards. Since you can assault out of all transports now, they won't do much after turn 2 anyway unless they have substantial firepower.

I haven't seen how disembarking works yet. Can the vehicle move, then the unit disembark, and then the unit advance/shoot or shoot/charge?

 

 

no, disembarking happens before movement now

[Berzul]

 

 

 

Anyway, on the topic of transports, I think they're going to be used for the 50% of troops on the ground for the deep striking units and are expected to die fairly quickly afterwards. Since you can assault out of all transports now, they won't do much after turn 2 anyway unless they have substantial firepower.

I haven't seen how disembarking works yet. Can the vehicle move, then the unit disembark, and then the unit advance/shoot or shoot/charge?

 

 

no, disembarking happens before movement now

 

 

You would have to start embarked, move on turn one 12 inches, then on turn two disembark and advance/fire/charge.

 

Still, It gives you better placement for that turn 2 charge. It's a costly 12 inch move, though.

[twopounder]

 

 

Anyway, on the topic of transports, I think they're going to be used for the 50% of troops on the ground for the deep striking units and are expected to die fairly quickly afterwards. Since you can assault out of all transports now, they won't do much after turn 2 anyway unless they have substantial firepower.

I haven't seen how disembarking works yet. Can the vehicle move, then the unit disembark, and then the unit advance/shoot or shoot/charge?

 

 

You have to disembark before the vehicle moves, but the unit can assault afterwards.

[HandofAnubis]

I agree ss and sword look good! Rule of cool matters as much as effectiveness! We just need some good looking shields, I'm not a fan of the cross looking ones. Death watch has some cool ones, and kromlech too! I personally will have gunslinger vets. I've always wanted them, and they're much cheaper now, in fact, I can do plasma and grav for the same cost as before!

 

I am sure you have some Deathwing Knight shields lying around somewhere. I will be using these for the Vets If I decide to run some of them.

[jbaeza94]

I do, but chopping them up was kinda tough. I tried using them for cataphractii knights a loooong time ago. Maybe I didn't have the right tools. Only am exacto blade and a round file.

[Interrogator Stobz]

You have two out of three tools required, the other is patience. That is not a fun job, but worth it.

 

;)

Stobz

[jbaeza94]

Must be a flaw in my psycho indoctrination.

[Interrogator Stobz]

:lol:

[FarFromSam]

Has anyone found a reason to take a predator annihilator (4 lascannon) over two razorbacks with a twin lascannon each? They roughly cost the same except with the RB you get 9 extra wounds and the option for additional HK missle and SB. I'm Wondering what I'm missing.

[SnakeChisler]

Has anyone found a reason to take a predator annihilator (4 lascannon) over two razorbacks with a twin lascannon each? They roughly cost the same except with the RB you get 9 extra wounds and the option for additional HK missle and SB. I'm Wondering what I'm missing.

They are both T7 so 1st glance answer is no

 

Las costs the same weather you put it on a dread tank or Devastator same with missiles

 

The big winner in tank stakes is the Vindicator because it went up to T8, T8 is a magic number for a lot of stuff pulling off wounds as Plasma now needs 5's to wound as do autocannons Tau missile spam etc..

 

Tried Las Plas and they seem to be the best of both worlds twin plasma is cheaper than a 2nd las cannon 2 shots at 24 & 4 shots at 12 add a storm bolter for an all rounder.

 

Oh the joys of infinate split fire

[Berzul]

By the way, I gotta say, did you guys notice how much more awesome scouts are this edition?

 

More expensive than in 7th ed, sure (111 points for a squad of 5 with sniper rifles, cloaks and a missile launcher), but:

 

1) You can split fire that missile, which means you don't waste shots between different targets;

2) Infiltrate is still there and awesome;

3) Snipers no longer tie you down, can deal mortal wounds, and can take out characters from a line up.

 

I mean, wow.... i hadn't even read their entry in the index due to always having found them a bit less than useful in 7th edition.

 

Saw them ok a battle report the other day, went in to check their rules, and I fell in love with them!!

 

Anyone else have that happen to them?

 

I plan ok keeping a squad at hand now. Cheap way to get that minimum requierement of troop choices, and can now HURT stuff. And without the cloaks, you are looking at a miserable 96 points. That. Is. CHEAP, this edition.

[FarFromSam]

Alright, concerning scouts, I'm ecstatic. Back in 5th edition i ran a list i lovingly called 1st and ten, 50 assault scouts with 20 terminators from the codex marines.

 

Well, now they're better than ever. From what I've read, if you get first turn, they can infiltrate in, move six towards the enemy split fire, and then attempt a 3" assault. Lol

 

So, I'm going to run 50 scouts with a drop pod full of crazy hqs to buff the little guys. If i don't get 1st Turn, we will die in fire. If i do get first turn, then I'll show the orks what a true green tide looks like.

[dtse]

Good luck to you lol. Rushing enemy lines with 1 wound 4+ save dudes is not gonna win you many games. But you will probably have fun!

[FarFromSam]

Lol, you don't build and paint 50 assault scouts if you're not having fun

[dtse]

Very true lol

[Andrés Pacheco]

Has anyone found a reason to take a predator annihilator (4 lascannon) over two razorbacks with a twin lascannon each? They roughly cost the same except with the RB you get 9 extra wounds and the option for additional HK missle and SB. I'm Wondering what I'm missing.

Whilst you can't argue with your analysis, there will be situational benefits to annihilators. Easier to get all 4 guns buffed by an HQ, fewer units to deploy for 1st turn, can be taken as Heavy Support for the Spearhead, prefer to sit still at the back for no hit penalty etc. Not saying any of these make them better, just some situations where you might consider the predator instead.

[dtse]

Yup. Particularly if you are trying to keep all your units within 6" of someone. Gets hard with more tanks. Also a predator can shoot three targets but your two Razorbacks only shoot 2. Like everything else in the army now everything has a very specific purpose

[Knight Master Eladric]

Twin Las is heavy 2. I'm still unclear, can you split fire each shot or just by each weapon? I thought it was by weapon. If so, it's 3 to 1.

[BlackTriton]

Twin Las is heavy 2. I'm still unclear, can you split fire each shot or just by each weapon? I thought it was by weapon. If so, it's 3 to 1.

Rulebook sais: [...] if a model has several weapon, it can shoot all of them at the same target, or it can shoot each at a different enemy unit. [...]

so I would say split by weapon.

[Interrogator Stobz]

Twin Las is one weapon, I would say both shots at the same target.

[dtse]

It's one weapon. You can't split the two shots.

[Crazy Jay]

https://17890-presscdn-0-51-pagely.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/Warhammer_40000_Designers_Commentary-ENG.pdf

 

Day 1 FAQ is up

[ValourousHeart]

Did anyone notice that the RW attack bike has 1 attack whereas the generic SM version and the Space Wolf version both have 2 attacks?

 

Thoughs?  How do you all plan to run it?