hopes, dreams, and fears for sisters in 8th

[BitsHammer]

 

 

@ValourousHeart: good to know! I guess I was too influenced by the priest with eviscerator I spotted in Codex: Witch Hunters. It looks so tiny.

 

@Fulkes: what is the point of repentia if they're downgraded to, say, heavy chainswords instead of keeping eviscerators though? Unarmored, slower, slightly killier melee specialists than seraphims?

 

Well it's not like Repentia didn't already lose teeth since there seem to be a fair number of things they'll only wound on 5+ now instead of cleaving it in twain.

 

Horde killers would be my guess for the downgrade. Make them cheap, give them lots of attacks and let them mulch hordes.

 

More and more reason why I'm considering an alternate 8th just like WHFB had its 9th Age. Which leads to my fear slowly becoming realized:

That GW has screwed up 8th with a Sigmarization of 40K and made Sisters an even weaker army in the process.

Jervis has stated on Twitch that all armies were worked on at the same time. If we really suffered in the damage output department in the long run we may see a drastic points drop per model.

 

 

I mean we already competed with the Black Tide for most power armoured bodies on the table in a normal game, now it looks like it might go further.

 

Plus I could see Horde Sister bonuses being a thing for units with 10+ models.

 

That said, The real question will come down to the level of focus they got during playtesting. I'm certain most of our nerfs so far come mainly from an attempt to balance Marines, and if so perhaps we'll see some buffs elsewhere to make up for it.

 

And if we,re horribly broken I expect anyone who plays Sisters will be burning the Facebook page down until they get fixed...

[Commander Dawnstar]

 

Obviously there could be some rebalancing in rules and points costs, but isn't the more pertinent question what would make Repentia with Heavy Chainswords superior to Death Cult Assassins?

DCA have -3 AP and lost their bonus attack for two weapons, and the bonus attack for charging. So 2 attacks each hitting on 2+, at S3, AP -3. Right now I wouldn't even call them Marine killers in the new edition since they lost their high initiative. A unit of 7 (the other three models would be 3 Crusaders, or 2 Crusaders and space for a Priest) will only put out 14 attacks, hitting with 11.67 of them, wounding on 5s for 3.89 wounds, and then the Marines get a save on a 6+ 3.24 dead Marines on average. This is compared to usually coming pretty close to wiping the unit on the charge even without a Priest.

 

Right now if the Arco-flaggellant gets buffed in terms of either being cheaper or having some kind of proper save it might actually be the more useful one to throw into a unit as it as 1 more attack, WS and S5 and doesn't lost anything form losing the initiative stat. I mean crunching the numbers they'll do 21 attacks that hit on a 2+ for 17.5 attacks, and wounding on 3s versus Marines for 11.67 wounds, and even without an AP 3.89 wounds will push through on average meaning they'll actually kill more models than DCA do (unless DCA get a stat bump to do more attacks).

 

Of course this could change, but as it stands with the current stats, our mindless murder blenders might be a more useful choice against the average enemy than DCA.

 

 

So a couple of points:

1. I would expect both units to be hitting on a 3+ rather than a 2+. The 2+ To Hit rolls seem to be reserved for the guys with really high Weapon Skill values (the Swarmlord and Avatar for example) while you can probably expect anyone in the WS 4-6 band to be hitting on a 3+.
2. Death Cult Assassins are Strength 4, not Strength 3. By your numbers (hitting on a 2+) that would see them manage 4.81 unsaved wounds against Space Marines - better than the Arco-Flagellants. When you factor in some kind of buff from the Priest and Battleshock to follow that could certainly be enough to keep them in the "Marine killers" space.
3. It's hard to say what proportion of Crusaders to other models we'll want in Battle Conclaves without knowing where their rules end up. Something tells me that they won't still be enjoying a 3++ save in an edition where Invulnerable Saves seem fairly rare and a bit toned down from where they are now.
4. AoS typically grants models with paired melee weapons rerolls to hit - usually just rerolling 1s. It's quite possible that Death Cult Assassins could enjoy that rather than their bonus attack for two Power Swords going to waste.

[BitsHammer]

Fair enough, they might get pushed to a 3+, and I did forget that DCA are a bit stronger than most humans. I still don't thinknthey'll fit in the army as a blender unit anymore. Even if you just run 10 of them they don,t have the output to completely remove the average Marine unit without some Emperor blessed dice.

 

Were have you seen evidence of a loss of invulnerable saves? Genestealrs have a 5++ now, Wyches kept theres and now Knights have a 360 degree one. If anything it looks like invulnerable saves increased, not decreased.

 

Invulnerable saves seem to be a safety valve for certain units to ensure that they always get a save (excluding Mortal Wounds of course) instead of getting rended out of their save. I expect them to be more common on units rather than less.

[taikishi]

 

I mean we already competed with the Black Tide for most power armoured bodies on the table in a normal game, now it looks like it might go further.

 

Plus I could see Horde Sister bonuses being a thing for units with 10+ models.

 

That said, The real question will come down to the level of focus they got during playtesting. I'm certain most of our nerfs so far come mainly from an attempt to balance Marines, and if so perhaps we'll see some buffs elsewhere to make up for it.

 

And if we,re horribly broken I expect anyone who plays Sisters will be burning the Facebook page down until they get fixed...

 

 

 

That requires something I don't have -- faith in GW to not screw things up. Their years of mistakes with WHFB and WH40K means they haven't earned my trust to "get it right this time", and at least in my opinion they haven't so far.

 

Though that being said, I think there's only a few things that need to be tweaked from 8th to get it right. Without having seen the full rule set or going into things like 4rd-7th edition USRs, I've been able to boil down what I'd change about 8th into one 8.5" x 11" sheet of paper, single-spaced. If anyone would like to see, I'll be more than glad to PM it to you.

[BitsHammer]

If it was GW alone I'd get it but there where third parties involved which should have lessened any echo chambering that the rules team would have had.

 

EDIT: without the full core rules it,s too early in my opinion to start deciding to change anything.

[Ficinus]

Yeah, right now I'm a bit worried that we just saw a rule that makes Repentia viable, but we'll also see them with only 2 attacks, hitting on 3+ down to 4+ due to the eviscerators, no Rage, and only S6, making them sort of bad at everything. Too weak to reliable smash monsters and tanks, too few attacks (and too weak) to reliably mulch Marines. Maybe good against Primaris Marines if they're doing multiple wounds, but 4+/3+ is far from a sure thing with only two attacks.

 

Hopefully they'll have some bonus attacks, no malus to hit for a big weapon, and maybe a bonus to wound vehicles?

[Noeh]

Yeah, right now I'm a bit worried that we just saw a rule that makes Repentia viable, but we'll also see them with only 2 attacks, hitting on 3+ down to 4+ due to the eviscerators, no Rage, and only S6, making them sort of bad at everything. Too weak to reliable smash monsters and tanks, too few attacks (and too weak) to reliably mulch Marines. Maybe good against Primaris Marines if they're doing multiple wounds, but 4+/3+ is far from a sure thing with only two attacks.

 

Hopefully they'll have some bonus attacks, no malus to hit for a big weapon, and maybe a bonus to wound vehicles?

 

This is why I hope they take repentia out of the elite category. If they are made repentia into a troop choice, I don't think I would mind them being a little subpar. You'd be able to take more of them than you could in 7th, and instead of taking generic sister squads, you could take something more specialized if need be. Repentia to me have never screamed "elite unit".

[Servant of Dante]

I don't want Repentia to be troops, since as far as I'm concerned there really aren't a lot of them. Fluff-wise, they don't feel like a troops choice to me, but eh.

 

There is always the chance we'll get completely screwed over, but we don't really know what are rules will look like. I don't expect us to be great, but I'm hoping we won't be any worse than we are already.

 

That being said, I'm not super worried in any case, because I plan on playing Sisters without allies (well maybe the occasional non-psyker Ordo hereticus Inquisitor) or even non-Sisters units (so no battle conclaves or penitent engines. I make an exception for priests since they're really nessessary) like I am already, regardless of how bad we suck. We can't do anything about it, and of course that in and of itself can be a reason to be upset, but I've decided I'm just going to follow the previews and work with what we have when the new edition drops. Then I'll complain :D

[BitsHammer]

Troops doesn't mean that you have a lot, just that they aren't really "veterans" of the army in terms of utility.

 

Plus there are Orders who DO have a lot of Repentia. Letting them be a troops choice (but likely making them unable to contest objectives) would let people fill armies in a more lore appropiate manner

[Servant of Dante]

Troops doesn't mean that you have a lot, just that they aren't really "veterans" of the army in terms of utility.

 

Plus there are Orders who DO have a lot of Repentia. Letting them be a troops choice (but likely making them unable to contest objectives) would let people fill armies in a more lore appropiate manner

I mean, I don't think it says anywhere exactly what the difference between Troops and Elites is. I was just saying, in my mind, Repentia don't feel like they should be a Troops choice. But, again, that's just me. 

 

I'll be fine either way though. It hardly affects me, whatever slot they put them in, since I don't run Repentia all that often and I only have enough for a single full squad in any case.

[Daimhin]

So, looking at the sub-factions in each book, it looks to me like Adepta Sororitas will just be part of "Imperial Agents". 

 

While this isn't that surprising, it is a little sad and I suspect that that means we will not be getting our own codex at any point. Which also suggests to me that there is unlikely to be any new model range any time soon.

[A.T.]

Oh look, dual-wielding jump infantry marines (ticks off another box)

I wonder if they have hit and run

[Sister Alessia]

Yeah I'm peeved at that too A.T :( Atleast they are fugly and Seraphim are gorgeous :)

[Atrus]

Wow...just...wow. This only serves to seal my view that marines are the bully big brother to the sisters, always stealing their toys.

I won't say much now due to my extreme levels of salt right now.

 

Release date: yay! That's all I can say.

[Sister Alessia]

It really can't come soon enough Atrus! Cant wait to start list building :) And my Sisters started just to be for Shadow War lol.

[Arkaniss]

Yeah, the jump Primaris has a few aesthetic issues shall we say! Though I'm sure some people will figure out an effective method of trimming the ugly bits off to make them look better once the kit is available. I am curious to see what their new gun is like though.

[Banjulhu]

At the way things are going the sisters may not even have their own faction keyword in 8th.

If we are lucky we may just get

Faction Keywords: Imperium, Imperial Agents, Red Headed Stepchildren

[Atrus]

Haha haha, red headed step children. That legit made me laugh.

[Sister Alessia]

It was my fault for giving my Order of our Martyred Lady leader red hair. I should have gone white, I've doomed us all!

[A.T.]

I am curious to see what their new gun is like though.

 

According to the facebook page, they are mini heavy bolters.

[Noeh]

It was my fault for giving my Order of our Martyred Lady leader red hair. I should have gone white, I've doomed us all!

 

Is it bad that ALL of my sisters have red hair then?

[Banjulhu]

 

Is it bad that ALL of my sisters have red hair then?

To be fair my statement was technically innacurate due to the 40k backround for the Schola Progenium

 

It should have be Red Headed Orphans. They are as unloved as Red Headed Stepchildren except they also cost the state more to support so they also gain the ire of hard working tax payers.

[Noeh]

At least I only have to buy a single book to have astra millitarium, sisters, and imperial knight rules. I kinda figured everything spess marine would be in one book.

[Atrus]

Didn't you hear mate? Sisters, astra and knights are going to be spread I've 2 books. Yeah, agents and astral in book 1 and knights in book 2 with the mechanics and other tech dudes ;)

 

Was it just the main rules that are the free ppdf.

 

Also forgeworld is confirmed to be updating their range to 8th. First imperial armour books will focus on marines and chaos with everyone else getting their before end of June.

They say all models they currently make will have rules....as well as some classics.

Here's hoping the repressor is one of those classics.

[Noeh]

Didn't you hear mate? Sisters, astra and knights are going to be spread I've 2 books. Yeah, agents and astral in book 1 and knights in book 2 with the mechanics and other tech dudes

Was it just the main rules that are the free ppdf.

Also forgeworld is confirmed to be updating their range to 8th. First imperial armour books will focus on marines and chaos with everyone else getting their before end of June.

They say all models they currently make will have rules....as well as some classics.

Here's hoping the repressor is one of those classics.

But..you're wrong. They posted images of the book covers. And the book covers say what is in them..