hopes, dreams, and fears for sisters in 8th

[Servant of Dante]

Oh, and I'm being forced to take 2 Canonesses, since I refuse to take Celestine :P It's the only way to unlock a detachment with sufficient slots, and I want those bonus command points. It's mostly annoying from a fluff perspective, but oh well.

 

And, honestly, none of us expected to have the best rules, did we? I'm happy that it looks like we might just be able to compete with other armies a bit better than we did in 7th. Of course, this is just my initial impression. Only playing games will tell us how competitive we really are :D

[Beams]

I don't see how the Sisters have better weapons than IG. Better armour, yes, but the IG can take all sorts of tanks, it's only the basic infantry that are inferior.

Actually the basic guard infantry are more durable for the points (moreso against weapons with -1 AP or better), but they have less powerful basic weapons (especially against the many T6/T7 targets now in the game) and lose more models to moral.

Veterans are 6 PTs, infantry squad members are 4? I think.

We're 9. For that, we get a 6++, a BS 3+, a weapon with +1 strength, and a 3+ save, as well as a AOF that doesn't have a distance restriction.

Plus, in cover we get a 2+. Which is really really nice. That's how we're going to hold objectives.

Sure -2 Ap weapons are going to hurt, but well still have a 5+ in the open and the guardsmen are pulling models off the table.

Our infantry IS good. We're going to be in an interesting spot wedged between space marines and guard, but I'm hopeful that well finally be comfortable there. I mean, a sister with a storm bolter is the same points as a Space marine, and a dominion with one is 1 point more. A seraphim is 11 PTs! That's cheaper than a space marine for a jet pack nun with bolt pistols. She's got movement 12" and a reroll able 6++, plus derpstrike.

Yes, we're no longer the 6x Repressors Dominions and 4x Immos and BSS being in close quarters fire fight in the first turn, ignoring cover saves and burning tanks, but we'll be good, we just have to look at it differently.

And yes, Engines are more expensive than a similar dreadnought, despite being more fragile. But if your willing to burn a command point, you've got a two shots of rolling a 4+ and going from 12 attacks (?) from that squad to 24. Which would make anything cry.

And yeah, it sucks that you'll basically be using two cannonesses. But you could always take an inquisitor hereticus, or just say that your second canniness is a palatine or a Sister Superior operating as the second-in-command, as a way to represent the chain of command in your order.

[taikishi]

And if you don't take Celestine? What, then?

 

At least right now the army and our special rules (Acts of Faith) are fully functional at all points levels for all units and don't require Similacrums or Celestine to get multiple uses in a turn. Don't want to take Celestine? Don't have to. And you have a 72.2% chance of passing a Ld 8 test, a 83.33% chance of passing a Ld 9 test, a 91.66% chance of passing a Ld 10 test. And you can have one massive turn of AoF if you want/need.

 

In 8th? Your chance of getting a single AoF in a turn is the same as a Ld 9 test -- a slight improvement, but limited to once a turn. Every use after that is taxed, eats elite spots, and isn't guaranteed unless you purchase Celestine. On the other hand, an army like Imperial Guard has it guaranteed to them as many times a turn as they're willing to invest in HQ and Elite slots. And even then it doesn't matter if you're playing 500 points or 5000 points, unless you spend the tax you're getting (maybe) one use of Acts of Faith a turn.

 

 

As for non-Guard, non-Sisters armies and their special rules:

 

* Battle Focus, Power from Pain, Rising Crescendo, Canticles of the Omnissiah, Living Metal, Combat Drugs and the abilities of Chaos Daemons automatically work for every unit with these rules; PfP gets better each turn. No tax units required for additional uses.

 

* Cult Ambush works once, but works when you want it to work and you can bring along a Character and an infantry unit as part of the same ambush. That isn't a tax as much as improving both given the Unquestioning Loyalty special rule.

 

* ASKNF, Soulburst, Mob Rule, Shadow in the Warp, For the Greater Good, 'Ere We Go and Quarry automatically work when triggered, no tax units required for additional uses.

 

* Reanimation Protocols are less reliable but trigger on a per-model basis and are usable by all models with the rule so long as there's at least one model left in the unit. Models that manipulate Reanimation Protocols make the rule better and more reliable but aren't required to use the rule.

 

* Death to the False Emperor, at face value, is worse than Acts of Faith because of its requirements (6+ to hit, must be fighting Imperium in the Fight phase), but can be used by every model in the army on the same turn and don't require additional taxes to get multiple uses.

 

* Synapse is probably the next closest rule to Acts of Faith and Guard Orders in that a model with the Synapse rule is required to make it work, but unlike Acts of Faith it always works and affects every unit in range

 

* Markerlights are probably the next closest thing to Imagifiers and Acts of Faith after Synapse in terms of both being unreliable (roll to hit) and a tax (units required) but in most cases that tax is part of the same unit (sergeants and drones with marker lights) thus eating fewer FOC slots while enabling more units to use the rule. Further, markerlights benefit every unit firing at the targeted unit with Markerlights, not just one, and the effects are cumulative.

[Servant of Dante]

And yeah, it sucks that you'll basically be using two cannonesses. But you could always take an inquisitor hereticus, or just say that your second canniness is a palatine or a Sister Superior operating as the second-in-command, as a way to represent the chain of command in your order.

That's what I was going to do :D it's still frustrating, because she ISN'T a Canoness, just a Sister Superior. My Order is far too small to need a Palatine, and the Canoness's second in command has a jump pack, so she can't be the second "Canoness"

 

I'll take an Inquisitor, sometimes, but they violate my "no allies, no unique characters" policy I have for my Sisters. In fact, a non-psychic Hereticus Inquisitor is the only exception I ever allow to the no allies rule :P

 

I suppose it's annoying because the Sister I want to have act as my 2nd Canoness is the one who, by my fluff, needs to be leading the actual Canoness's bodyguard, so now I'm sinking even more points into 1 unit, since both of my HQs are going to be running around together.

[Beams]

Don't think of it as a 50% chance I get an AOF, but as approximately 3 additional acts of faith over the course of a game

 

And we dropped 4 PTs this edition. We're no longer 2 behind space marines but 4. Acts of Faith aren't really built to much into our point costs, since a bolter over a las gun is definitely worth 1 pt, a 6++ is worth 1 pt, and a 3+ is worth at least 1 pt, so even if you think our acts are worse (which I don't), than you have to admit that they are at least not super expensive for us. After all, guard orders seem to be built into the guy giving it and the vox's that make them long enough range to be versatile

 

And our codex isn't even out, just our index. When the imperial agent code comes out, well prolly have unique detachments or strategies that let us bolster the amount or effects of our acts of faith. Right now, as it stands, I think we are in a good enough spot. At least better than we've been in the last five years.

[Servant of Dante]

Don't think of it as a 50% chance I get an AOF, but as approximately 3 additional acts of faith over the course of a game

 

And we dropped 4 PTs this edition. We're no longer 2 behind space marines but 4. Acts of Faith aren't really built to much into our point costs, since a bolter over a las gun is definitely worth 1 pt, a 6++ is worth 1 pt, and a 3+ is worth at least 1 pt, so even if you think our acts are worse (which I don't), than you have to admit that they are at least not super expensive for us. After all, guard orders seem to be built into the guy giving it and the vox's that make them long enough range to be versatile

 

And our codex isn't even out, just our index. When the imperial agent code comes out, well prolly have unique detachments or strategies that let us bolster the amount or effects of our acts of faith. Right now, as it stands, I think we are in a good enough spot. At least better than we've been in the last five years.

^ I can get behind all of this. This isn't a "terrible" set of Sisters rules. It's not a "holy Emperor we're OP now" set of Sisters rules, and we *should* be getting even more rules later on. We all knew (not just Sisters players, all 40k players) that there would be things we like about our army and things we don't like about our army.

 

Of course that's not to say people can't complain and vent a bit, I'd just encourage everyone (myself included) to not get too worked up about the rules or other people's reaction to them.

 

Oh, and I don't think this thread is doing badly right now :D That's kinda why I spend so much time in this sub forum. Everyone's pretty level headed.

[Sister Alessia]

I will be getting my first game in, against Guard next week :D (we haven't decided on points yet. is 750 the new 500?) I've also got some free time next week, to do some more painting, yay!

[Beams]

I'm planning on running an angelic host, using the outrider detachment. Celestine and seras dropping in to save and avenge.

[taikishi]

And I would heartily disagree and say we were better in 7th because at least we had a niche as anti-horde, anti-vehicle/MC. Can you really say we have those niches now? Flamers will generally hit fewer targets, we now have a harder time wounding said hordes with heavy flamers and heavy bolters, and our melta weapons now have a harder time taking down most vehicles and some of the larger MCs due to wounding less often and the number of wounds they have.

 

 

Also, probability has taught me that getting an additional 3 AoF per game from one imagifier lower than you realize. On top of that, the unit has to be within 6" of the imagifier so you need multiple to get enough battlefield coverage to maybe give the act to the unit you want, which leads more credence trying to average one Imagifier per unit.

[Beams]

In 7th you were likely to be outmatched by 500+ PTs because of Gladius or Admech/Cult/Mech and hordes and vehicles were seen to be weak, with set stars reigning.

 

So, no formations and no Death Stars certainly help us be better. We can't use the exact tactics as before, but wee got more options too.

 

Also, I don't know if your implying that the odds are that you'll get less or f your just unlucky, but f you keep an Imagifier next I a squad that needs an AOF (BSS, retributors, etc) you will, in a 6 roud game, get about 3 extra depending on how you roll.

 

If your planning on using seraphim than Celestine is your girl because she keeps up with them and gives a guaranteed AOF.

 

But that's beside the point. If your upset that it changed, that's fine. But I really don't understand the doom and gloom on this stop gap release.

[taikishi]

Beams,

 

You're assuming the single Imagifier is always going to be able to get to the unit you want to use your extra AoF on, or for that matter that you're always going to want to expend it on specific units. That is a fool's errand that gives up tactical flexibility and telegraphs to your opponent what unit you want to use that AoF on. If he has some way of removing that Imagifier quickly (units that show up from reserve, snipers, etc) he'll find a way to do it.

 

No battle plan survives contact with the enemy.

 

I'm upset that the changes that were made are bad, not that there were changes made. I'm upset that the best way to use our special rules is to stick to one of three formations that burn up elite slots when maybe I really want to play an army that includes some SM bikes as counts-as Sisters bikes and borrowing SM and Guard vehicles we should probably have access to anyway while still being able to take Dominions or Retributors or Serpahim or Exorcists. I'm upset that if I want to get more use of my army's special rules I have to take Celestine even if she may not fit with an all gun line army should I choose to build an all gun line army.

 

I'm upset because it's bad design.

 

I'm also upset because there are enough changes, both to the army and the rules, that I don't like that they overshadow the ones I do like.

 

Finally, I'm upset that my models will be collecting dust because I've already been told by my friends that if I want to play 40K with them, I have to play 8th edition and they won't even consider a fan 8th or any older editions.

[Beams]

You can play marine bikers as sisters on bikes, add in guard vehicles or space marine vehicles without any penalty. There's nothing stopping you That's easy. They both use the imperium faction keyword, and you choose which keyword of is your faction, and it can be any level (imperium, ministorum, sisters) And right now there's no reason to not mix and match that.

 

That being said, an Imagifier has a 6" range, so you've got a 12" diameter circle in which to use her. Id expect shed be following a squad or two around, since they all move the same speed.

And you don't have to take Celestine. The army should be effective with a few imagifiers or even without any, provided you fill those points with more shooting.

[taikishi]

The problem, Beams, is I can't take those units and still get reliable use of my Acts of Faith on the real sisters units. If I want, for example, two units of Dominions in Repressors, three units of Land Speeders and a unit of Seraphim I have to take one of the formations that permits me to take multiple FA slots. I'm fine with that in general principle. What I'm not fine with is that, unless I play a Brigade (which also requires me to drop a unit), I now don't have enough elite slots to reliably use my Acts of Faith when I need them. At least in 7th I could take a Castellans detachment or a proper Space Marine detachment/formation for the LSs, and could still reliably use my Acts of Faith.

 

 

Honestly, the easiest fix is the one GW won't consider -- despite the fact it's there for Tau. Cheap, one wound Imagifiers who only work for their unit just like Tau have sergeants and drones with Markerlights for most of their units. Maybe even require the Imagifier to be the unit's first casualty. That's all they had to do and we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

[taikishi]

I also want to make one thing clear: I'm not saying I can't play the army the way I want to play it because of the AoF change. I'm upset that other armies can (except for Death to the False Emperor) somewhat reliable use their special rules every turn and if there's some sort of tax involved it's mitigated by either being accessible through multiple FoCs, cheap add-ons to the unit, or being able to take multiple of that tax in one slot.

 

We get none of that and it forces us to build into specific detachments to be able to pay that tax.

[Beams]

You can take more than 1 formation, and there's even a formation for a single unit, so I don't see how it's more restrictive than a castellan?

 

There's a 3-6 elite slot formation with 1 hq an a 3-6 fast attack with 1-2 hq formation, and if you put them together you can do everything you said with the "tax" being whatever hq in the imperium is the cheapest. You don't even need troops.

 

Taking this would give you up to 8 imagifiers, I think. Off the top of my head I can't remember of the vanguard gives 0-2 or 0-3 elites, but if you need more than that, you can always take another detachment.

 

That said, GW on the whole appears to be moving away from adding characters to squads, with Tau seeming to be the exception. And since your Imagifier can't be targeted unless your within a foot of her, she can basically be attached to squads in the same way you are suggesting, especially since transports can hold different units now.

[Commander Dawnstar]

I feel like the the inconsistency and investment is probably intentional. 8th Edition Acts of Faith are extremely powerful - massively more so than 7th Edition ones - and making them an inexpensive unit upgrade in an Edition where we've returned to the owner choosing the casualties creates a situation where you're probably seeing half of the infantry units in a Sisters army (plus two for the army rule and another for Celestine) either moving twice or shooting twice every single turn. Ynnari can do something a little bit similar but they're hardly in a position to get multiple soulbursts across their entire army on every turn in every game. We're limited by RNG and points investment, but I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest that's the case because of just how powerful our Acts of Faith are and how much of an impact it would have on the game if we were always hyper-mobile or hyper-shooty for our points costs.

 

In 7th Edition a Battle Sister Squad had a baseline 72.2% chance of gaining Preferred Enemy for a single turn once per game, but now with an Imagifier in proximity they have a 50% chance of moving twice (including running), shooting twice or even (potentially) getting to fight twice in close combat and shoot their pistols. I get the frustration at this being bound to RNG, but making something this powerful easily available to every infantry unit in your army on every turn of the game sound just a bit ludicrous, doesn't it?

 

Even Markerlights are somewhat underwhelming in this Edition. Unless you have 5+ Markerlights on a unit or it's in cover, Markerlights are essentially worth one more hit for every six shots fired as you're only rerolling 1s to hit from units that typically hit on a 4+. Pathfinders are eminently killable and unlike Imagifiers can't hide from the enemy's guns. Even when we're talking about something like buying a Shas'ui a Markerlight we're still only talking a 50% chance of getting to reroll 1s to hit as opposed to a 50% chance of getting two movement or shooting phases. Sisters have so much more flexibility and unlike the Tau aren't forced to focus their firepower to draw real value out of it. Even a single Act of Faith can have a massive impact, particularly once Battleshock comes into play.

[BitsHammer]

Let me put it this way: if Marines get access to rules that function just like the AoF ones, but don't have to roll for them, and have them always work as part of their chapter tactics again I'm likely to burst a blood vessel in my brain, climb the tallest church in town and start preaching against heretics.

[taikishi]

Sadly, Fulkes, that's exactly what I expect to happen because (as I said in a now locked thread) past performance is an indication of future results.

 

Twenty + years of GW decisions have made me cynical when it comes to trusting they've changed. It'll probably take 20 + years for me to finally accept they have changed... and by then I'll be nearing retirement >.>

[A.T.]

...creates a situation where you're probably seeing half of the infantry units in a Sisters army (plus two for the army rule and another for Celestine) either moving twice or shooting twice every single turn.

 

The cost of Imagifiers really has to be weighed against the cost of the units. Buying them to double-shot a 160pt exorcist or a big blob squad is one thing, but buying a 40pt model to have a 50% chance of double-shots from an 80pt squad makes no sense - just buy more squads.

 

So it's going to depend on how people run their armies.

[BitsHammer]

Sadly, Fulkes, that's exactly what I expect to happen because (as I said in a now locked thread) past performance is an indication of future results.

 

Twenty + years of GW decisions have made me cynical when it comes to trusting they've changed. It'll probably take 20 + years for me to finally accept they have changed... and by then I'll be nearing retirement >.>

 

Guess I should start sewing my own hair shirt, robes and build a chainsword while I await the inevitable.

[Commander Dawnstar]

 

...creates a situation where you're probably seeing half of the infantry units in a Sisters army (plus two for the army rule and another for Celestine) either moving twice or shooting twice every single turn.

 

The cost of Imagifiers really has to be weighed against the cost of the units. Buying them to double-shot a 160pt exorcist or a big blob squad is one thing, but buying a 40pt model to have a 50% chance of double-shots from an 80pt squad makes no sense - just buy more squads.

 

So it's going to depend on how people run their armies.

 

Exactly.

 

Imagifiers are optional, not compulsory - they are to us what Markerlights are to the Tau (and more). You can certainly make a very valid complaint about how the Act of Faith mechanic shouldn't be bound to a system like this, but the whole point is that if you want more and more consistent Acts of Faith you have to pay for them. A highly mechanised army might have little need for Imagifiers (as they can't even generate an Act until the turn after you disembark) whereas one more orientated around a firebase or rushing units like Seraphim and Repentia forward with Celestine might want to push for more of them. You take them to suit your needs, not simply because you want to be able to give every unit an Act of Faith every turn. You certainly could do that if you wanted to though, RNG allowing.

 

I tried making a 2,000 point list earlier and found that even two Imagifiers was bordering on feeling unnecessary after Celestine and the near-certain one per turn. Obviously that's not going to be true for everyone or every point level, nor is it likely to feel that way when the dice turn against me, but I really don't think we're going to need an over-saturation of Imagifiers to get our points' worth out of them.

[taikishi]

That's where I disagree and believe that we will need to over-saturate to guarantee one and possibly  get more. And some of that is also predicated on whether or not you take Celestine. Celestine in a gun line? Doesn't really fit. Celestine in a rush army like you described? Sure. Point is, she shouldn't be an auto-include and yet she feels like she is no matter the army build.

[A.T.]

I tried making a 2,000 point list earlier and found that even two Imagifiers was bordering on feeling unnecessary after Celestine and the near-certain one per turn.

 

I can certainly see one in a list for no other reason that sitting behind exorcists/dominions threatening an extra salvo of shooting each turn. That having been said the exorcists output is also... disappointing relative to other faction units and may prove to be less of an auto-include.

 

It's a real shame none of the three options work on penitent engines.

[Eddie Orlock]

... Point is, she shouldn't be an auto-include and yet she feels like she is no matter the army build.

If we accept the axiom that good game design presents the player with meaningful decisions at several stages, is the case that once we've selected 'Sisters' as the faction, having one choice that eclipses all others reduces the chances for meaningful selection?

[Gothical]

I disagree. Tying AoF to the elite slot with lone models that can be killed to prevent us from using them was enough to balance it. Officers hide in units, Imagefiers have to rely on their ability to survive on their own. And it's not like Imagefiers are free. They cost a fair number of points and only have a small number of wounds.

 

If they wanted to make it a fair roll then the 2+ should have been for the Imagefiers and the army wide AoF should have been automatic. One unit getting a boost once a turn automatically won't win games, but it would even the odds, while the 2+ would have given us a chance of failure while not making it a friggin coin flip to access our rules.

 

Just a heads up, Officers are no longer part of a unit. They're lone characters, just like the Imagifier, they have 4/3 wounds (compared to the Imagifiers 4), only a 5+/5++ to protect them (compared to the Imagifier's 3+/6++) and other than one Special Character there is no unit that can take a hit for them (Imagifiers can send wounds to Celestians). The Imagifier can use Acts of Faith herself, either to self-heal, to get herself out of dodge/into position for the next turn, or to attack at the start of the turn before an enemy unit can strike her down.

 

So whilst they may cost 25-50% less and have auto-working abilities, Officers are much more fragile.