robofish7591 Posted May 9, 2017 Share Posted May 9, 2017 It seems to me that they are going with wound count to represent heavier armor rather than toughness value. Depending on how many wounds meltas can do, that might be good for sisters. Especially if dominions can still scout! Taikishi, while they may not wound on 2s anymore, if they have an increased rate of fire paired with some sort of save modifier I think there will still be a place for them. A rate of fire increase could make them just as effective (if not more, depending on how well you roll!) than they are currently. I would also be surprised if they didn't get at least -1 to saves, so while they may only wound marines on 3s, they also make their saves worse. I think once the full rules are released then we can actually make a judgement call on whether they are worse off than they are now, there is just to much missing to say currently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taikishi Posted May 9, 2017 Share Posted May 9, 2017 Robofish, my argument is about wounding non-Marines. That is the hordes of Eldar/Dark Eldar/Tau/Gaunts/IG we were good at dealing with. 3rd through 7th edition HBs 4HB, Heavy 3, 2s to wound: * 12 shots * 2/3 hits = 8 hits. * 5/6 wounds = 40/6 = 6.67 wounds before saves 8th HBs, assuming no bonus RoF or Str 4HB, Heavy 3, 3s to wound: * 12 shots, 2/3 hits = 8 hits. * 2/3 wounds = 16/3 = 5.33 wounds before savesIf upped to Heavy 4, you'd get slightly better RoI from 4 heavy bolters Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robofish7591 Posted May 9, 2017 Share Posted May 9, 2017 But you are still thinking in the context of 7th edition, what I am saying is that we just don't know yet. Unless GW gave you an advance copy of the rules, it is still too early to say if they will be bad or not. For all we know they could end up being heavy 5! We just don't know yet. I really wish GW would just release the rules already so we can all stop speculating and just play the stupid thing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sister Alessia Posted May 9, 2017 Share Posted May 9, 2017 Dammit! I've just bought 4 heavy bolter sisters, thinking they would be a safe bet for retributors! Oh well, atleast they will look cool! In my last game of 7th 40k, the humble bolter was my star weapon against 1000 sons. So as long as that doesn't get nerfed too hard, I'll be okay. "Sob" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atrus Posted May 9, 2017 Share Posted May 9, 2017 Aye. I just butchered a couple of storm bolter sisters to concert them to heavy bolters :/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robofish7591 Posted May 9, 2017 Share Posted May 9, 2017 Well... like I said above, we don't know if they will be good or bad in 8th. I'm willing to bet that they will be just fine. Even if they keep their profile from 7th, they won't be totally useless in a SoB army. They will still be 36 inch range heavy 3 guns that can now fire a -1 BS when moving. So even if they don't change from 7th, they now got more mobile. If you still think that those models are now terrible and the game is ruined, then I am more than willing to take those models off your hands and give them a good home, because I don't intend to stop playing my army just because it is slightly different now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddie Orlock Posted May 9, 2017 Share Posted May 9, 2017 Dammit! I've just bought 4 heavy bolter sisters, thinking they would be a safe bet for retributors! Oh well, atleast they will look cool!In the fullness of time, if you play long enough you'll be fine. They'll still fill their combat role, and your collection will be whole. That model is core to the faction, it's only a matter of time to gain traction. So, patience my friend, all your sisters will find their place at the end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atrus Posted May 9, 2017 Share Posted May 9, 2017 Oh I don't care about the effectiveness of heavy bolters. I like the models (even though I only have one legit one) and would field them for looks if nothing else. With that little tease of guard thats come out, I'm genuinely a bit concerned about going up against infantry guard. The tried and true method of tearing up the field, jumping out a transport and making a blob squad of guard in a crater disappear in a swathe of holy fire is not going to be effective. Having then to suffer the wrath of a returning hail of 4 shots per lasgun is sounding unpleasant. Fine for those T4 guys. Us T3 girls have always felt the sting of the laser pointer. Methinks this edition could very well see us having to reevaluate our past strategies. I'm with you Fishy. Want 8th now so the speculating stops. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drider Posted May 9, 2017 Share Posted May 9, 2017 https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/09/warhammer-40000-faction-focus-astra-militarum/ ...So if guard aren't rolling for orders anymore what's the bet that we'll not be rolling for AoF anymore either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
micahwc Posted May 9, 2017 Author Share Posted May 9, 2017 Did you catch that rapid fire weapons fire the number of shots at full range, and twice as many at half range? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robofish7591 Posted May 9, 2017 Share Posted May 9, 2017 That's a good point Drider. It also makes my wonder how our priests' prayers will work too, especially since they aren't in a unit anymore. Also, I agree Atrus. When the rules drop we are really going to have to reevaluate our tactics. Hopefully when we get our faction article it is written more like the guard one rather than the chaos one. That chaos article had absolutely zero information in it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commander Dawnstar Posted May 9, 2017 Share Posted May 9, 2017 That's a good point Drider. It also makes my wonder how our priests' prayers will work too, especially since they aren't in a unit anymore. The most obvious analogues in AoS (the prayers of the Slaughterpriest and Lord Relictor) typically target a unit within 12" and are used by rolling against a prayer-specific target on 1d6 - usually a 4+ but sometimes a 3+ or 2+. It wouldn't surprise me if GW ports over that mechanic and even some of the prayers themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robofish7591 Posted May 9, 2017 Share Posted May 9, 2017 ...I guess that is true, I even play bloodbound in AoS so that should have been pretty obvious to me! ...I'm just going to blame that on a long day at work... yeah... that's it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drider Posted May 9, 2017 Share Posted May 9, 2017 Oh I don't care about the effectiveness of heavy bolters. I like the models (even though I only have one legit one) and would field them for looks if nothing else. With that little tease of guard thats come out, I'm genuinely a bit concerned about going up against infantry guard. The tried and true method of tearing up the field, jumping out a transport and making a blob squad of guard in a crater disappear in a swathe of holy fire is not going to be effective. Having then to suffer the wrath of a returning hail of 4 shots per lasgun is sounding unpleasant. Fine for those T4 guys. Us T3 girls have always felt the sting of the laser pointer. Methinks this edition could very well see us having to reevaluate our past strategies. I'm with you Fishy. Want 8th now so the speculating stops. In terms of reevaluating our past strategies, I can see us staying as a predominantly meched up force. Without our transports I can see us being even less mobile in 8th than we are without them in 7th. I'd be willing to place money that we'll be looking at a sub 6" move probably 4". As far as dealing with blobs, if what they've said about weapons being good at the job they're designed to do is true, I think flamers/heavy flamers will still the way to go. A squad of rets jumping out a transport and grilling blobs. realistically i think what we'll be looking at for heavy flamers will be range 8, Assault D6 hits, s5, ap-1. I think we're still going to be reliant upon melta dominions as well. i can't see anything really changing for them. Canoness I can see having something like a stubborn buff bubble and a AoF hatred buff bubble, I dunno. just seems lack luster... Priests are probably going to get the same sort of thing, zealot buff bubble and a warhymn buff bubble. But since it seems fearless is going out the window that component of zealot might turn into something like reduced wounds taken from moral tests. BSS can't see much changing here Rhinos are still going to be rhinos Repressors are going to be an iffy one. FW does currently have rules for them but doesn't sell the model... I wonder if GW are going to take the time to make rules for them or not. Immolators could be interesting. It might be that we don't automatically default to melta on them and switch to preferring flamers on them depending on if we can move over 6" and fire the flamers. Seraphim have been getting minor buffs in most of the rules previews so i think a squad or two of them are going to be strong contenders for a fast slot over having N+1 dominions. Unfortunately I can see them just not quite hitting the mark and losing out to dominion spam. For me they need to use their bolt pistols in melee, I mean shoot the damn things in the fight phase and not just use them as clubs. I know that you can now fire pistols in the shooting phase if you're locked in combat, but it's a long time between you charging into combat, punching each other, maybe taking moral tests, getting shot at by them if they have pistols, punching again, maybe taking moral tests again and you getting to shoot at them with you're pistols. I dread to think how many of those girls are going to be left standing to get any shots off in you're shooting phase even if you take a 10 girl squad. Although hand flamers are going to be made of cheese if they get 1d6 hits on their profile. Dominions, can't see much changing. just waiting for the melta profile. If Repentia get the Shadow War AoF of an invul rather than a FNP, this is going to be nothing but good, and striking first when they charge, we might actually have a reason to start filling out elite slots. The only caveat to this is if they can assault out of transports otherwise they get screwed over by our lack of assault vehicles yet again. The 'Advance' mechanic might help them out a little in this department but I doubt it's going to be game changing to the point where it makes up for their low mobility seeing as they were always moving and running anyway if they weren't in charge range. Celstians need some love as well. If every unit is going to be useful, then something about them has to change. They are supposed to be veterans but even without the additional points cost they're not worth taking over a basic squad of sisters. If they got they're current AoF is melee orientated for a non-melee orientated squad. if they got something shooty, like being able to fire twice in the shooting phase, then I think i'd start taking them. Imagine a squad of 10 of them jumping out a rhino and you're able to fire off 4 shots with flamers and 16 shots with rapid fire bolt guns. Alas... This is another thing that falls under the category of wishful thinking. Rets another one I can't see much changing with but it they'll be more mobile with HB/MM which is nice. Exorcists might be a funny one. I can see vehicles in general keeping relentless meaning they wouldn't get the -1 to hit when firing heavy weapons when moving. nut it would be cool as hell to give them an AoF, fire 2D6 shots rather than 1D6. That would be epic but I doubt it's something that's going to happen and just wishful thinking. In old Apoc rules you could take a formation that, if you had 3 exorcists in a required range of each other and all in LOS and shooting at the same target, roll 2D6 shots, but could not fire the next again turn, as a once per game rule. If Penitents getting a stat line similar to the dread preview would be bad ass! I'm expecting something along the same lines but with slightly less toughness, wounds or save. I really do hope they make Penitents elites rather than heavies, but I have a feeling that's just wishful thinking. They're going to be bad ass if they don't explode from a stiff breeze as the currently do. <insert similar AoF comment as exorcists> Brightstar, on 10 May 2017 - 12:33 AM, said: robofish7591, on 10 May 2017 - 12:15 AM, said: That's a good point Drider. It also makes my wonder how our priests' prayers will work too, especially since they aren't in a unit anymore. The most obvious analogues in AoS (the prayers of the Slaughterpriest and Lord Relictor) typically target a unit within 12" and are used by rolling against a prayer-specific target on 1d6 - usually a 4+ but sometimes a 3+ or 2+. It wouldn't surprise me if GW ports over that mechanic and even some of the prayers themselves. I really don't know anything about AoS but that does sound very likely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atrus Posted May 10, 2017 Share Posted May 10, 2017 Flamers have really lost their appeal for me. People can quote all the mathhammer they want, but i know how the dice behave for me and I know I won't be rolling anymore than 2 hits per flamer, thats just luck and dice. I'm going to miss the reliability of templates, but that's an old sorrow now. If we do have to roll for faith, I certainly hope what they grant is suitably Orders are pretty strong in their current iteration imo and having them for free is going to be pretty big. But yes I do agree that a lot of our bubbles will probably be morale buffs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Servant of Dante Posted May 10, 2017 Share Posted May 10, 2017 As always, it will be what it will be And we will be able to play our Sisters. I'm looking forward to seeing what happens personally :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taikishi Posted May 10, 2017 Share Posted May 10, 2017 Well... like I said above, we don't know if they will be good or bad in 8th. I'm willing to bet that they will be just fine. Even if they keep their profile from 7th, they won't be totally useless in a SoB army. They will still be 36 inch range heavy 3 guns that can now fire a -1 BS when moving. So even if they don't change from 7th, they now got more mobile. If you still think that those models are now terrible and the game is ruined, then I am more than willing to take those models off your hands and give them a good home, because I don't intend to stop playing my army just because it is slightly different now. Actually, I'll gladly argue characters not being able to join units (breaks immersion for me), the new to-wound chart, and (especially) the new morale rules make me not want to play a single game of 8th >.> And we only have the 7th edition profiles to go on, so why wouldn't I compare what I know of a weapon now vs what I expect of it in 8th? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ficinus Posted May 10, 2017 Share Posted May 10, 2017 I'm fairly certain it was explicitly stated that vehicles will also suffer -1BS when moving and shooting heavy weapons. This seems, in general, to be offset by the fact that vehicles will now be able to fire all of their weapons if they move, just at -1BS. Since the Sisters have no tanks with more than one weapon (hunter-killer missiles and pintle-mounted stormbolters not withstanding), it looks like we'll be seeing the short end of the stick there. Even with that, I doubt we'll see people trading multimelta immolators for heavy flamer ones. The multimeltas are one of the few "long" range weapons we have access to, and the range on flamers seems just too short for a tank (assuming heavy flamers also have an 8" range). Of course, they could serve a purpose when dropping off troops, but I'm not sure that would be enough to offset lost turns of shooting. A question I just thought of: will shooting weapons only be able to kill models within range? Which is to say, if a weapon has range to hit a unit, but only a few models, can the kills overflow? I don't believe it has been addressed yet, so the rule could change in the next edition, but if it stays the way it is, that could be an issue for flamers, especially as the incentive to get right up in the enemy's face is lessened due to the lack of template. And, yes, let's hope repentia can assault out of rhinos this edition! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atrus Posted May 10, 2017 Share Posted May 10, 2017 Despite the lack of information and constant teasing of rules and constant speculation, I've not been this excited for a new 40k edition ever before. 8th cant come soon enough for me. Of course let us brace ourselves for the inevitable "Bubble buff" jokes the sisters will be copping now too. Is the assaulting from vehicles 100% confirmed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Servant of Dante Posted May 10, 2017 Share Posted May 10, 2017 I didn't think they'd touched on it yet, but who knows if I'm up to date at this point :D I'm looking forward to updating our 2E special characters to 8th, just like I did for 7th. And I have another one to do (might be a surprise if you haven't seen me talking about it previously, if anyone cares). I agree with Atrus. If only because it's a new ruleset to learn, I'm excited. I'l also optimistic this will be a quicker ruleset to play, but who knows? it will be as He wills. :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robofish7591 Posted May 10, 2017 Share Posted May 10, 2017 Well... like I said above, we don't know if they will be good or bad in 8th. I'm willing to bet that they will be just fine. Even if they keep their profile from 7th, they won't be totally useless in a SoB army. They will still be 36 inch range heavy 3 guns that can now fire a -1 BS when moving. So even if they don't change from 7th, they now got more mobile. If you still think that those models are now terrible and the game is ruined, then I am more than willing to take those models off your hands and give them a good home, because I don't intend to stop playing my army just because it is slightly different now. Actually, I'll gladly argue characters not being able to join units (breaks immersion for me), the new to-wound chart, and (especially) the new morale rules make me not want to play a single game of 8th >.> And we only have the 7th edition profiles to go on, so why wouldn't I compare what I know of a weapon now vs what I expect of it in 8th? I don't know what to tell you then, I hope 9th edition ends up being more to your liking then. I just think its a bit silly to completely write off the rules when you haven't played a single game when them and they haven't even bee released. I don't like every change that is happening, I didn't even like every rule in 7th. No one is saying that that you have to like everything, I certainly don't. But, having a little positivity isn't a bad thing, especially since we all know very little about the new edition in the grand scheme of things. This hobby is centered around a game, a game that is supposed to be fun. If it stops being fun maybe it is time to take a step back and find something you DO enjoy about the hobby. Maybe focus on painting or even play an older edition with some friends. It is supposed to be enjoyable. I don't know about you, but I am going to keep playing. If I end up not enjoying 8th as much as 7th, then I just won't play as often. I still have good friends that I can enjoy hanging out with no matter what game or edition we end up playing, and I hope that is the case for you too. Maybe I just have a different outlook on things, I don't know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A.T. Posted May 10, 2017 Share Posted May 10, 2017 Repressors are going to be an iffy one. FW does currently have rules for them but doesn't sell the model... I wonder if GW are going to take the time to make rules for them or not. They would be part of the FW rules pack (when it appears) rather than the GW core rules. However I contacted FW a couple of weeks back about the availability of the repressor and it was a pretty resounding "this model is no longer part of our range" from the customer service people. I still think they'll update the rules, but it's not a certainty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daimhin Posted May 10, 2017 Share Posted May 10, 2017 Did you catch that rapid fire weapons fire the number of shots at full range, and twice as many at half range? You should note that the rule they got was "Rapid Fire 2", which gave 2 shots at full range and 4 shots at half range. From that I would extrapolate that Rapid Fire 1, is the rapid fire we currently see and no reason to think there couldn't be a Rapid Fire 3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dread Posted May 10, 2017 Share Posted May 10, 2017 It's all starting to sound better and better. Fingers crossed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sister Alessia Posted May 10, 2017 Share Posted May 10, 2017 I presumed from all the talk, heavy bolter nerf was fact, my apologies. I was also joking, since i just bought 4 full price from GW :) Even if Sisters end up being the worse army in 8th, I will still play them and with a smile on my face! My faith is strong! Really excited for 8th! X Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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