hopes, dreams, and fears for sisters in 8th

[Sanul]

Just quickly jumping in (for the first time, being a quiet lurker) in defence of the good old heavy bolter. You might have not yet recognized its new potential: targeting ALL kind of vehicles! Judging from what we got for the Leman Russ (before: 14/13/10 with 3 HP, now Toughness 8 with 12 Wounds) the heavy bolter is now actually being able to wound the Leman Russ. And since its S5 vs T8 it even wounds the tank on 5+! And guessing the HB gets a -1 armor save mod half the wounds actually get through.

 

So dont throw out your heavy bolter just yet. It might not wound T3 infantry on 2+ anymore, but it certainly got buffed versus anything else.

[Sister Alessia]

Great point Sanul! I'm sure they will still be handy against all sorts of things. Plus who knows what act of faith they will get instead of rending?

[A.T.]

So dont throw out your heavy bolter just yet. It might not wound T3 infantry on 2+ anymore, but it certainly got buffed versus anything else.

 

It'll also be noticeably weaker against light vehicles (the old AV10 and 11 targets) and anything with 4+ armour, but heavy vehicles are turning out to have a much lower toughness than I had expected after the early talk of 11+ stats.

 

If it does get -1 save then it would seem to average ~1.3 wounds per squad against pretty much anything from a dreadnought or rhino up to predators and russes.

[Banjulhu]

I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest very little will ultimately change for our armies.

The Battles Sisters do not have a wide enough range of units nor a wide enough range of weapons/options for said units for things to really shift for us

Heavy Bolter changing, doesn't really matter it's the only long range anti-infantry heavy weapon we have. Flamers  and heavy flamers changed, big deal, they are the short range anti-infantry tech we have.

Somethings will get better, some worse but it matters not one bit for our army building because we dont really have much option when building our armies.

[Commander Dawnstar]

Yep, that's largely my sort of feeling when it comes to Sisters too. While some things might be worse for us in 8th Edition, for the most part we'll only see any radical change if some of our sidelined units find their way back into our armies as solid choices and we can field some more melee punch. We'll be using Melta regardless of how it turns out in the new edition and unless Heavy Bolters/Flamers are absolutely terrible there should certainly still be a place for them in our lists if only because we lack Assault Cannons, Autocannons, Grav, Plasma and the like. You might see less of some weapons or units and more of others, but we'll probably be less affected than most in terms of overall army comp.

[Daimhin]

I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest very little will ultimately change for our armies.

 

The Battles Sisters do not have a wide enough range of units nor a wide enough range of weapons/options for said units for things to really shift for us

 

Heavy Bolter changing, doesn't really matter it's the only long range anti-infantry heavy weapon we have. Flamers  and heavy flamers changed, big deal, they are the short range anti-infantry tech we have.

 

Somethings will get better, some worse but it matters not one bit for our army building because we dont really have much option when building our armies.

I don't think thats necessarily true. I think the makeup of Battle Sister squads will possibly change given that you can now move and fire heavy weapons and split fire. These combine to mean that BSS with MM or with HB might turn out to be viable and possibly even optimal. That would be a big change.

[Servant of Dante]

Yeah, melta/multi-melta BSSs would be interesting, in particular

[Daimhin]

I'm currently thinking MM/flamer squads might be good for mid-table objective holding. A few of those spread around and all squads can use their MMs to target the same squad/ vehicle while keeping a flamer to threaten people coming to shift them off their objective.

 

Obviously, we need to know more, but I'm really liking how that might look/feel to play. Oh, sod it, I'm off to buy some more MM-girls!

[taikishi]

 

 

Well... like I said above, we don't know if they will be good or bad in 8th.  I'm willing to bet that they will be just fine.  Even if they keep their profile from 7th, they won't be totally useless in a SoB army.  They will still be 36 inch range heavy 3 guns that can now fire a -1 BS when moving.  So even if they don't change from 7th, they now got more mobile.  If you still think that those models are now terrible and the game is ruined, then I am more than willing to take those models off your hands and give them a good home, because I don't intend to stop playing my army just because it is slightly different now.

 

Actually, I'll gladly argue characters not being able to join units (breaks immersion for me), the new to-wound chart, and (especially) the new morale rules make me not want to play a single game of 8th >.>

 

And we only have the 7th edition profiles to go on, so why wouldn't I compare what I know of a weapon now vs what I expect of it in 8th?

 

 

I don't know what to tell you then, I hope 9th edition ends up being more to your liking then.  I just think its a bit silly to completely write off the rules when you haven't played a single game when them and they haven't even bee released.  I don't like every change that is happening, I didn't even like every rule in 7th.  No one is saying that that you have to like everything, I certainly don't.  But, having a little positivity isn't a bad thing, especially since we all know very little about the new edition in the grand scheme of things.  This hobby is centered around a game, a game that is supposed to be fun.  If it stops being fun maybe it is time to take a step back and find something you DO enjoy about the hobby.  Maybe focus on painting or even play an older edition with some friends.  It is supposed to be enjoyable.

 

I don't know about you, but I am going to keep playing.  If I end up not enjoying 8th as much as 7th, then I just won't play as often.  I still have good friends that I can enjoy hanging out with no matter what game or edition we end up playing, and I hope that is the case for you too.  Maybe I just have a different outlook on things, I don't know.

 

 

The problem is there are certain rules that are deal breakers for me -- morale being the biggest one. I was an undead player in Fantasy and I could deal with models taking wounds since I didn't take morale tests at all, but to lose models regardless of wound count because of a failed morale test? I won't rehash what I think is a better alternative -- I've done that plenty elsewhere -- but I've gotten to a point in my life that I'm pretty good at trusting my gut when I don't like something. And while there are things I do like, there's enough I don't that it just isn't worth playing in 8th. And I've played enough games in my life that if I dislike a rule enough, I don't enjoy the game at all :(

 

Unfortunately, that means my models collect dust because everyone here will be switching to 8th regardless of how good or bad the edition is -- it's just how they roll -- so I'll have no one to play.

[Banjulhu]

Vehicles will need multiple anti-tank shots to go down so the best solution is a full squad of anti-tank capability so I'm more of a mind that 4x MM retributor squads will likely be the better option over a melta/MM battle sister squad.

The splitting fire rules whilst nice are going to be more of a niche bonus than a full time benefit. The nature of 40k has nearly always tended to lean towards having power at a point and focus firing rather than spreading the power out.

I do hope for a bit more parity between the Retibutors and the Exorcists to make picking a Heavy choice more of an actual choice.

[taikishi]

I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest very little will ultimately change for our armies.

 

The Battles Sisters do not have a wide enough range of units nor a wide enough range of weapons/options for said units for things to really shift for us

 

Heavy Bolter changing, doesn't really matter it's the only long range anti-infantry heavy weapon we have. Flamers  and heavy flamers changed, big deal, they are the short range anti-infantry tech we have.

 

Somethings will get better, some worse but it matters not one bit for our army building because we dont really have much option when building our armies.

 

It's not just the Heavy Bolter that, based on 7th rules, is getting a nerf if nothing changes about it's base profile (S5, Heavy 3). Melta-guns and multi-meltas are taking a nerf against T5 and T6 models -- which will probably include light vehicles -- in exchange for a slight buff against something that'll probably be exceptionally rare: T10

 

Really, what was so wrong with the old S/T table and just letting a 6 to-wound succeed against everything?

[Daimhin]

The splitting fire rules whilst nice are going to be more of a niche bonus than a full time benefit. The nature of 40k has nearly always tended to lean towards having power at a point and focus firing rather than spreading the power out.

 

You are most likely right that that will be the optimal choice - and AoF here might really make that true.

 

However, this is a (potential) option that wasn't there before, which is good in my book. One advantage of this over 4xMM Rets is that if your opponent squashes one of your units, or locks it in combat, if it's your Rets you now have no MM to use, if it's one of your BSS then you still have 3 MM to use. 

[Servant of Dante]

Well, do realize that ALL armies weapons are getting nerfed this same way. I'd be happy if wounding on 2s in shooting was much more rare across the board.

[Ficinus]

Well, heavy bolters may very well become Heavy 6 3 in the new edition (based on a stat-line in the Weapons Part 2 article), making them quite dangerous compared to what they are now, even if they only wound T3 on 3's and have AP-1, especially since power armour is so common basically the same to what it is today, only less effective against hordes and more effective against heavier targets, like Astartes.  (The Warhammer Community seems to be edited, now indicating that twin-linked just means double the shots no matter what, not at half range, meaning the Heavy 6 stat is likely after the doubling.)

[Commander Dawnstar]

Having roughly hashed things out, a six-shot Heavy Bolter with those stats is marginally better against Toughness 3 with a 4+ save (1.78 casualties rather than 1.67) and substantially better against Space Marines (1.34 casualties rather than 0.44). A Retributor Squad with four Heavy Bolters should be killing 5+ Tactical Marines per turn rather than needing to be a bit lucky to kill two as it stands now.

 

Also here's one to consider: A Twin-Linked Multimelta fires two shots at 12", each of which rolls two dice for damage and picks the highest. Rolling to wound might be a bit less reliable than penetrating armour now but Melta certainly looks like it's got some nice stuff going for it in 8th.

[taikishi]

Well, do realize that ALL armies weapons are getting nerfed this same way. I'd be happy if wounding on 2s in shooting was much more rare across the board.

 

I know that, and I don't like it. I think the old to-would table is actually fairly easy to remember, and don't mind the increased lethality of a plethora of weapons needing 2s to wound. I mean, it's worked this way since Second Edition and is one of the few things in the game that didn't really need 'fixing'.

[A.T.]

Special weapons aside, the basic 8e sister would appear to be worth two-thirds of a generic space marine in terms of capability against the other in the shooting and close combat phase, before other factors like ATSKNF, chapter tactics, and faith.

 

So roughly on par with previous editions face to face with small arms. I get the feeling however that the new to-wound chart will slant things in favour of the astartes when it comes to plasma and other anti-heavy infantry weapons, and also S3-based cc weapons like the eviscerator. Sisters are going to need the numbers.

And stats are officially out for the heavy bolter

 

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/10/new-warhammer-40000-weapons-part-2-may10gw-homepage-post-4/

 

36", Strength 5, Damage 1, AP -1, Heavy 3

 

Meltaguns are also up -

12", Strength 8, Damage D6, AP -4, Assault 1, Special - roll 2 dice for damage and pick the highest within half range.

 

And combi-weapons are unlimited ammo, and can fire both barrels in the same round at -1 to hit with both.

[Banjulhu]

The article has changed. Twin linked weapons are just double the number of shots over their normal variety at all ranges.

That means a heavy bolter has 3 shots at S5 with a -1 to save. It is still going to be a bit of a naff weapon, marines will still prefer their autocanons (shame we dont get them).

Meltas being S8 -4 to save is nice, but it looks like combi-weapons are going to be a premium weapon in 8th (shame we dont get them).

[Commander Dawnstar]

So hold on: I'm all kinds of confused now.

 

The profile given is for a "Twin heavy bolter." Is this a Twin-Linked Heavy Bolter or a totally unique weapon which does not benefit from the new Twin-Linked rule?

 

Edit: Or is this confusion just coming out of the, now apparent, edit of the article and "Twin-Linked" is no longer a thing, with weapons that used to benefit from it being labeled as Twin weapons?

[Banjulhu]

So hold on: I'm all kinds of confused now.

 

The profile given is for a "Twin heavy bolter." Is this a Twin-Linked Heavy Bolter or a totally unique weapon which does not benefit from the new Twin-Linked rule?

A Twin Heavy Bolter is what a Twin linked heavy bolter is currently in 7th.

[taikishi]

@Banjulhu

 

We don't? That's funny, because I'm pretty sure command squads, our characters, and all of our veteran Sisters can take combi-weapons currently.

So hold on: I'm all kinds of confused now.

 

The profile given is for a "Twin heavy bolter." Is this a Twin-Linked Heavy Bolter or a totally unique weapon which does not benefit from the new Twin-Linked rule?

 

Edit: Or is this confusion just coming out of the, now apparent, edit of the article and "Twin-Linked" is no longer a thing, with weapons that used to benefit from it being labeled as Twin weapons?

 

What Banjulhu said. It would have helped if, instead of a twin heavy bolter, they'd shown a twin lascannon. Basically a heavy bolter is heavy 3, a twin heavy bolter is heavy 6.

[Commander Dawnstar]

Oh right. That was a pretty significant error on their part then.

 

A Twin Multimelta getting two shots at 24" seems pretty nice now that it doesn't need to be at half range to increase its reliability.

[Servant of Dante]

Superiors have access to combo weapons, or at least they do in 7th.

 

The melta is now extra effective angainst anything with more than 1 wound at half range, which is cool. I might actually consider melta Seraphim now :D

 

The nerf to the HB isn't fun, but I'm not overly upset by it. I mean, against marines (which is what I'm up against mostly anyway) it's same to hit, same to wound, and now comes with a -1 save mod, so it's better in that case.

[Banjulhu]

@Banjulhu

 

We don't? That's funny, because I'm pretty sure command squads, our characters, and all of our veteran Sisters can take combi-weapons currently.

I was meaning on the squad level like marine vets and chaos termies, but I entirely forgot about our command squads because well they are an utterly forgettable unit at the moment.

[Servant of Dante]

I take command squads all the time :D

 

I'm liking the changes to combo weapons. I'll have to convert a couple of my Superiors with them

Autocorrect keeps changing combi to combo and my phone refuses to edit posts . . .