Ad Mech in 8th Edition

[lancerusso]

 

 

Saying that these are just 'kickstarter' rules is nothing but an excuse for them pushing an incomplete product to market. This means 1 of two things things.

 

1) Things will change when a AM book comes out, which means that they don't actually have the rules ironed out which means what you think is good now may not be viable later. Call it inconsistency.

 

2) Things stay the same/ similar, which means what you have is how things will be with tweaks here and there. Meaning you just got shafted.

Dude, come on!

 

They are by all means a complete product.

 

They could leave the rules here and we could all play with our armies as is. It just has a little less things than 7th.

You are so, so, wrong.

 

Skitarii have lost all their fluff.

They are no longer the doctrinal-datafed advance guard moving gunline they once were. They are not as hardy vs small arms as they should be, but now all have invulns that makes them tougher vs heavy weaponry.

No more phosphor led fusilades and charges, no more 'more man than machine' alphas.

 

It's impossible to lead a skitarii force in the fluff way anymore either- tech priests would orchestrate from orbit and let the skitarii fight solo.

 

And the skitarii would fight using their human creativity and ingenuity and wit and faith when cut off from the rest of the ad Mech. An Individual skitarius would be rewarded and decorated with improved war gear and weaponry in a princeps or alpha role, but we have now lost all that customisation.

 

They are just tempestus with slightly better guns and that sing canticles just like the cult mech.

 

Cult Mech has had their fluff improved, robots being better than ever, epriests being good for once, and kataphrons retaining heavy weapons. Tech priests and enginseers are healier than ever.

 

 

Also, ironstrider ballistarii are now fast attack.

[Vel'Cona]

They are by all means a complete product.

 

They could leave the rules here and we could all play with our armies as is. It just has a little less things than 7th.

 

I think this is a sentiment that has been moving around all the faction forums lately.  The Indices are missing some of the flavour we've been spoiled with in 7th and that's rubbing some folks the wrong way, but IMO I think the simplification was necessary to get as many lists out as possible in a reasonably balanced way prior to specific codex releases.  I think for the time being the loss of some detail is acceptable so we can get familiar with the new rules before more complicated Abilities are added later.

[Gothical]

I never quite appreciated how beautiful a model the Dunecrawler is, especially with the Heavy Phosphor Blasters (but why do those huge guns have the same profile as the piddly ones the Kastellans have?), and that Neutron Blaster is going to destroy vehicles like nobody's business. The anti-air option is certainly good in-game, but just doesn't appeal to me model-wise. Skitarii Rangers look pretty neat too.

 

There might be a convert to the Machine God in the near future 

[Subtle Discord]

Careful, once the scrap code initializes, it can be very hard to stop it from spreading. I should know.

 

Hold faith fellow cultists of the machine; we should all recognize that a reboot of complex device requires the central primary functions to come online first, before subsystems can be reinitialized.

 

On many levels, most of the fiction for any race/faction is actually still in place, with considerable changes (some more, some less) to how it’s portrayed on the table. We can all agree that how something is represented is just an abstract of how that thing is portrayed in the fiction. I personally think GW is taking exactly the right approach for what they’re trying to achieve; remove as much extraneous detail as possible while trying to create a robust, but lean, game system that uses some cohesive logic throughout, then carefully (key word - don’t screw this part up, GW!) reintroduce the deeper flavor and depth for each faction with serious consideration of the new system as a whole, not in isolation. So far I think GW is on the right track, I just hope they follow through in a way that is healthy for the game.

[Battybattybats]

GW had a time of paring back before. A lean time of hardship and loss, a winnowing that resulted in the complexity of 2nd edition reduced to the oversimplification named Third. It struck other lines too, with Adeptus Titanicus/Space Marine turned into Epic Armageddon. Dice types disappeared, card game sub-phases vanished, units disappeared, mighty tomes were replaced with pamphlets.

 

But the game sped up. With time and releases character and fluff returned. New additions became beloved parts of the game (see: B. Templars) and gradually over many years complexity returned and grew ungainly once more.

 

The time of winnowing has returned. But like many a pruned bracken it will grow...

[Odds.043]

Im going to summarize my cons of this edition, but rest assured, I'm excited for it, these things just dissapoint me a litte:

 

- admech now has even less access to transports as all transports are now faction specific again...

 

- skitarii Rangers are now less special versions of vanguard with the same cost.

 

The first point is mostly just annoying, but hopefully deepstriking infiltrators will make up for this to an extent. The second point though... it just seems strange that Rangers only get a longer range gun of underwhelming performance, and the vanguard get cool guns they can run and shoot, and a cool special rule... it's just odd.

 

As far as the skitarii fluff... I don't really care that much, I mean the whole fluff point really just felt like an excuse to give them an HQ less codex, but I too think having an HQ command squad like in the skitariius novel would have been cool, more load out variations for the alpha and such, but maybe we'll get supprized with new goodies in the form of transports, more robots, abd more equipment optons in the codex.

 

As for new canticles: awesome! It feel more unique and meaningful than before.

[MagicHat]

Man, the Arc weapons went from tearing all vehicles apart into bullying light vehicles.

 

Omnispex still feels like the go to option to stop 2+ save MEQ and 4+ GEQ.

 

Cognis weapons irks me. Like, we pay extra, for this? 

Onager moves 8" and advance 1D3. It suffers no movement penalty to heavy weapons, will pretty much never advance, yet we pay close to a heavy bolter for our cognis heavy stubber. If the new Primaris Repulsor do get co-axial as rumoured I will mumble while being slightly upset about it.

I don't think I will want to advance with Ironstrider particularly often, but at least they don't seem to pay any premium points for their cognis compared to SM and Astra Militarum auto/las cannons.

Guess it is only the Cognis Heavy stubber that irks me then.

 

Standard Servitors could have been cool, but they aren't. They could have helped to repair, but they don't. Their standard gear is melee, but they are terrible. If they all could take HB, I would gladly pay 48 pts for 12 BS4+ S5 Ap-1 shots, but you can only buy 2 and the meatshields costs more while doing nothing. Disappointing. Let Engineseer's re-roll Master of Mechanisms, or add 1 to the result or something GW...

 

Also, we really need a transport now. 

 

Our club regularly has mini-tournies of 1000 pts, 1 detachment. This is based on the last one I attended, but with the Dominus and Kataphrons instead of 5 ruststalkers and an Aegis.

Dominus:

• Phospor Serpenta/Eradication Ray.

 

Vanguard Squad Alpha: 

• 10 man.

• Phosphor blast pistol/Arc Maul.

• Omnispex.

• 3 plasma Caliver.

 

Vanguard Squad Beta: 

• 10 man.

• Omnispex.

• 3 Arc Rifle.

 

Ranger Squad Alpha: 

• 10 man.

• Omnispex.

• 3 Transuranic Arquebus.

 

Kataphron Destroyers: 

• 3 man.

• Phosphor Blaster/Grav-cannon.

 

Onager Dunecrawler:

• Heavy Stubber.

• Neutron Laser.

 

968 pts.

 

32 points left, so... Probably another heavy stubber on the Onager and arc mauls on the Alphas and... Cognis flamers, I guess? With Phoesphenix and Luminagen gone, all the phospor weapons except the Heavy blasters feels not really worth it. 

Kinda miss the reflector shield upgrades, those really helped to fill in the points.

[Shinespider]

Fellow Red Priests, I have a very important riddle I would like you to answer.

 

What is the Ballistic Skill of an Onager Dunecrawler with 6 wounds remaining?

[Odds.043]

Fellow Red Priests, I have a very important riddle I would like you to answer.

 

What is the Ballistic Skill of an Onager Dunecrawler with 6 wounds remaining?

That is a very... very good question. Maybe that means the rules leaks so far are first drafts? Which makes me hope that there are more details that will get corrected. In all likelihood thou it probably is just supposed to be a 6 instead of a 5.

[Charlo]

Servitors with Heavy Bolters are just 12 points each.

 

Now that's good dakka.

[MajorNese]

Servitors with Heavy Bolters are just 12 points each.

 

Now that's good dakka.

If they weren't limited to 2 per squad, that would be actually usable. The servo arm ones don't do much.

[Charlo]

Didn't see that. Gah. Shame the servos don't even help with repairs.

[Odds.043]

I mean... if the servo arm was just cheaper I feel servitors would be so much better... how is 4 power though? Maybe their better in narrative.

[Yodhrin]

While I'm by no means happy with all the changes to the Skitarii(Vanguard in particular - 3 shots or no, a S3 AP- gun isn't going to be doing an awful lot to big critters which will be universally high T and largely also high Sv, and not being able to spread extra damage around when it procs basically makes them Guardsmen against anything that isn't big & multiwound), I do giggle a little at the idea GW are committing some travesty against the fluff by integrating the two forces properly.

​

​The Skitarii have existed in the fluff long before the recent Codex and the recent fluff was pretty rubbish frankly. No Hypaspists or Sagitarii, instead the generic and dull sounding Vanguard and Rangers; squads where they should have Maniples; no Tribunes to lead them; etc etc. Techpriests have been directly leading Skitarii in combat for as long as Skitarii have been a thing, the fluff in the recent 'dex was more than likely merely a justification for GW double-dipping the book sales.

[MajorNese]

​The Skitarii have existed in the fluff long before the recent Codex and the recent fluff was pretty rubbish frankly. No Hypaspists or Sagitarii, instead the generic and dull sounding Vanguard and Rangers; squads where they should have Maniples; no Tribunes to lead them; etc etc. Techpriests have been directly leading Skitarii in combat for as long as Skitarii have been a thing, the fluff in the recent 'dex was more than likely merely a justification for GW double-dipping the book sales.

The codex is geared towards making the released models fit the fluff, altering it heavily. The most ridiculous point is still "They don't need transports. They calculate when they should be where, and start walking earlier". Then novels and short stories are released to feature this and nothing else, to drive the point home. It contradicts most of the old fluff to promote models, so I prefer to ignore it.

[Magos Takatus]

 

The codex is geared towards making the released models fit the fluff, altering it heavily. The most ridiculous point is still "They don't need transports. They calculate when they should be where, and start walking earlier". Then novels and short stories are released to feature this and nothing else, to drive the point home. It contradicts most of the old fluff to promote models, so I prefer to ignore it.

 

I was also surprised to an extent when we got models that fit the description of Praetorian battle servitors and they were instead called Kataphrons. I don't see why they needed to change the name unless Praetorian Breachers/Destroyers was harder to copyright successfully? I also thought Rangers is a bit generic and already in use by the Eldar so that puzzled me. All things considered I like the Adeptus Mechanicus faction as a whole but the naming seems a bit strange and the background about not needing transports seems pretty silly if you don't accept it at face value. The months extra food and water rations for the more biological Skitarii would bog them down even if the rough terrain didn't. 

[Feral_80]

Uniting the two codexes into one was a much-needed and obvious improvement, which finally allows to play the two sides of AdMech together without getting s headache. I always hated having two different, and often inconsistent, set of rules on the field. I couldn't care less for the loss of doctrina imperatives. Some criticisms are simply stupid - Vanguard are even better than before, when I actually expected a nerf to their gun. Pretty much everything seems better, except well servitors...whose models suck so badly that I would never use them anyway, at the moment.

 

This all stated, despite some obvious disappointment it seems to me that the new AdMech is great fun and very effective. I look forward for the real codex, where hopefully we will have old and new toys back.

Edited June 5, 2017 by Feral_80

[Ashe Darke]

My favourite unit at the moment is Plasma Destroyers, ideally with Cawl or a Dominus nearby. Rolling a unit of 3 out they consistently put out high damage (when over charged) especially when compared to say grav. The only issue is a lot of missions work on number of models with 3 of the objective and they're a small unit. Otherwise just spam them!

[Battybattybats]

Remember also that we have an interim list. They do this when making radical changes to a game. There will be a codex yet to come with more additional rules that may reinstate things some miss.

[Vel'Cona]

Remember also that we have an interim list. They do this when making radical changes to a game. There will be a codex yet to come with more additional rules that may reinstate things some miss.

 

And likely add a Flyer and/or Transport (perhaps both?) as has been hinted/spoiled many times in the past.  Alternatively, our rules could be re-adjusted to permit more defense on the way in (a la Necrons) or better mobility (Tyranids) to compensate for our lack of transports (though both of those Xenos scum factions have since been granted transports, as well).

 

In the meantime, AdMech gameplay will be about maximizing Canticle potential, careful ranged weapon selection and target priority, and counter-attacking aggressive opponents with care.

[Yodhrin]

Uniting the two codexes into one was a much-needed and obvious improvement, which finally allows to play the two sides of AdMech together without getting s headache. I always hated having two different, and often inconsistent, set of rules on the field. I couldn't care less for the loss of doctrina imperatives. Some criticisms are simply stupid - Vanguard are even better than before, when I actually expected a nerf to their gun. Pretty much everything seems better, except well servitors...whose models suck so badly that I would never use them anyway, at the moment.

 

This all stated, despite some obvious disappointment it seems to me that the new AdMech is great fun and very effective. I look forward for the real codex, where hopefully we will have old and new toys back.

 

​You'll have to clarify there chief - where's the "stupid" in my assessment of Vanguard? They have a S3 AP- weapon with a special rule that's only useful against multiwound enemies, who also tend to be high T and have a decent Sv, what am I missing? In 7th Vanguard could fair pile wounds onto anything except vehicles and they had special weapons for that, but now in 8th that additional damage doesn't spill over they appear to be pretty lackluster against regular 1W infantry and they'll struggle to wound the bigger stuff which are almost universally harder to kill. Also, given the slight nerfing the Stalkers have gotten, the usefulness of their T-lowering close combat synergy is a little less useful too.

[lancerusso]

The only place I've found rad saturation useful in my few games of 8th so far was taking arc pistols in every vanguard squad for 3 points. This means the S6 pistols are wounding T4 on on 2+. Synergy still exists with S6 taser infiltrators, but not with ruststalkers.

[Vel'Cona]

Thick skins, brothers.  Let's all be excellent to each other!  :)

[DeStinyFiSh]

 

Uniting the two codexes into one was a much-needed and obvious improvement, which finally allows to play the two sides of AdMech together without getting s headache. I always hated having two different, and often inconsistent, set of rules on the field. I couldn't care less for the loss of doctrina imperatives. Some criticisms are simply stupid - Vanguard are even better than before, when I actually expected a nerf to their gun. Pretty much everything seems better, except well servitors...whose models suck so badly that I would never use them anyway, at the moment.

 

This all stated, despite some obvious disappointment it seems to me that the new AdMech is great fun and very effective. I look forward for the real codex, where hopefully we will have old and new toys back.

 

​You'll have to clarify there chief - where's the "stupid" in my assessment of Vanguard? They have a S3 AP- weapon with a special rule that's only useful against multiwound enemies, who also tend to be high T and have a decent Sv, what am I missing? In 7th Vanguard could fair pile wounds onto anything except vehicles and they had special weapons for that, but now in 8th that additional damage doesn't spill over they appear to be pretty lackluster against regular 1W infantry and they'll struggle to wound the bigger stuff which are almost universally harder to kill. Also, given the slight nerfing the Stalkers have gotten, the usefulness of their T-lowering close combat synergy is a little less useful too.

 

 

True, they are weaker against low T single wound units. But a lot of 7th sinlge wound units like Terminators are multi wounds now.

Vanguard have been excelent at killing high T units in 7th, thanks to auto wounds on 6. They have lost nothing here. But the big bonus: You can wound even a Land Raider !

 

So in my books the Vanguard do kind of the same stuff they did before. Downside is the +1 point per model, but Arc and Plasma weapons got dirty cheap to compensate.

[lancerusso]

 

 

 

 

Uniting the two codexes into one was a much-needed and obvious improvement, which finally allows to play the two sides of AdMech together without getting s headache. I always hated having two different, and often inconsistent, set of rules on the field. I couldn't care less for the loss of doctrina imperatives. Some criticisms are simply stupid - Vanguard are even better than before, when I actually expected a nerf to their gun. Pretty much everything seems better, except well servitors...whose models suck so badly that I would never use them anyway, at the moment.

 

This all stated, despite some obvious disappointment it seems to me that the new AdMech is great fun and very effective. I look forward for the real codex, where hopefully we will have old and new toys back.

​You'll have to clarify there chief - where's the "stupid" in my assessment of Vanguard? They have a S3 AP- weapon with a special rule that's only useful against multiwound enemies, who also tend to be high T and have a decent Sv, what am I missing? In 7th Vanguard could fair pile wounds onto anything except vehicles and they had special weapons for that, but now in 8th that additional damage doesn't spill over they appear to be pretty lackluster against regular 1W infantry and they'll struggle to wound the bigger stuff which are almost universally harder to kill. Also, given the slight nerfing the Stalkers have gotten, the usefulness of their T-lowering close combat synergy is a little less useful too.

True, they are weaker against low T single wound units. But a lot of 7th sinlge wound units like Terminators are multi wounds now.

Vanguard have been excelent at killing high T units in 7th, thanks to auto wounds on 6. They have lost nothing here. But the big bonus: You can wound even a Land Raider !

 

So in my books the Vanguard do kind of the same stuff they did before. Downside is the +1 point per model, but Arc and Plasma weapons got dirty cheap to compensate.

It's mega daft. Alphas only have one wound now, but we're still paying for it for a ten man squad- still costs 100.

 

Rad weapons are not half as fantastic as they used to be but still have their place. Special weapons are where it's at. Arc rifles aren't amazing at all, but are cheap and better than galvanic rifles.

Plasma Calivers are still great despite losing a shot.

 

Transuranic Arquebuses are AMAZING. S7, AP-2, D3 damage. 6 to wound gives a bonus mortal wound. 60" range. Ignores cover from an omnispex. They can target characters. They cost the same, but it costs only 107 for what used to be 125 points of 5 rangers, two snipers and an omnispex. Deploy them with the best LoS possible and they can fire every turn and wound anything in the game at a very good rate.