The Primaris Space Marines and the Space Wolves

[Sun Reaver]

Yea, I dthink don't put and "I" in there before mentioned, because it was I that mentioned it earlier. But of course it was enough to trigger you Primaris nuthuggers into conniptions. Seriously, you guys are the 41k version of snowflakes!

 

If it is your wishlist/nocturnal omission that one of our special characters is going to become a Primaris Marine bas d upon assumption and you choose to post it, then I can just as easily and rightly so disagree with it and respond and should be able to on the same basis of evidence that all of you insist; conjecture and opinion.

 

And to be clear, of course you do not lose combat experience through the Primaris "upgrade". I never once mentioned that at all. But if your modus operandi of combat involves planetary assaults via drop pods with tons of Blood Claws and whatnot, it would be tactically IDIOTIC for your leader to then dump you into an army full of Primaris units that do not follow that combat doctrine. That would be akin to making Erik Morkai the Jarl of a full mech great company. The whole great company concept is based upon round peg in the round hole.

 

So while I make my assumptions on keeping the combat experience of special character preserved within their established combat doctrines, you can keep basing your assumptions on wishlisting.

 

Now, the exception to the rule would be giving Ragnar the Primaris upgrade while keeping him as jarl of his great company that specializes in lightening fast planetary assaults. Well then ok, his GC could probably have Primaris elements in it, but then Ragnar is basically removed in his role of leading his BC and GH in said planetary assaults due to transport restrictions placed upon Primaris units. So again, another assumption by me based upon tactical considerations.

 

But lo and behold, what does mesh tactically with basically almost every Primaris unit? A HQ bubble that allows reroll to hits for small 5 man units of Hellblasters and Intercessors as well as a 3 man units of Aggressors. InterestIng that a generic Gravis Captain with access to the SW armory would fill that role perfectly. Maybe even toss a name on him from his time in the Wolfspear that gives his some rules that make him Wolfy while cementing his tactical combat doctrine in leading Primaris units.

 

But hey, you guys are tired of having a voice that proposes actual reason and thought into a discussion. So do me a favor and just ignore me after this as I have you. Deal?

Buddy, I didn't assume anything. 

 

You, on the other hand, are making assumptions based off of your own assumptions which are further based on your own personal assumptions. 

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

This is the only warning going to be issued:

Please post respectfully.
You don't have to like something to post respectfully.
You don't have to agree on something to post respectfully.

You can downright hate something and still post respectfully.

If a topic bothers you so much you have to call somebody a name, simply leave the topic.

So please consider this a friendly warning. Next person out of line will face disciplinary actions.

Jarl Kjaran Coldheart, friendly Wolf Moderator

Edited July 18, 2017 by Jarl Kjaran Coldheart

[Guest]

Warning: massive speculation in this post.

 

so far we have see SM-centric Primaris so far and are also getting the SM-codez whicb will explain and help further detail out these units.

 

what IF the non-codex (minus GK as some references and the facebook page said it would take time Primaris-ize GK due to them being psyker focused) get non-codex Primaris once their respected codex comes out. Not once did I hear "Primaris have to follow the codex" in fact the lore states that the wulfen and black rage/red thirst was not eliminated. RG never forces SW to change that we know of. The SW could easilly Primaris-ize some SW's and say "Reivers? Nah, Wolf Stalkers armed with our armory."

[Grimtooth]

Warning: massive speculation in this post.

 

so far we have see SM-centric Primaris so far and are also getting the SM-codez whicb will explain and help further detail out these units.

 

what IF the non-codex (minus GK as some references and the facebook page said it would take time Primaris-ize GK due to them being psyker focused) get non-codex Primaris once their respected codex comes out. Not once did I hear "Primaris have to follow the codex" in fact the lore states that the wulfen and black rage/red thirst was not eliminated. RG never forces SW to change that we know of. The SW could easilly Primaris-ize some SW's and say "Reivers? Nah, Wolf Stalkers armed with our armory."

From just a unit structure standpoint, it appears that Primaris are locked into whatever vision it is that RG has set for them in terms of them being "codex" compliant.  Even the Primaris SW that were created have  basically been fighting in these Intercessor/Hellblaster/Aggressor/Inceptor squads with likely zero deviation since that was how RG designed them to fight.

 

Now it would be cool for the Wolves to drop a Cleveland Steamer on RG's vision of the Primaris and maybe do something like, "Reivers?  Nah, Wolf Stalkers armed with our armory", but then what it stopping them from just doing the same thing with Intercessors and Hellblasters except, "Screw RG, lets take two of you Hellblasters and from now on you are part of these 8 Intercessors.  Oh and you all get chainswords now, except one of you is going to have a frost axe."  Down that road lies madness!!

 

Ultimately, I think the Wolves will just have Primaris units, as per what they end up being in Codex SM, with whatever Chapter Tactics each non-codex chapter has assigned to them.  Sadly this will more then likely leave some armies with Primaris units that do not completely use their parent chapters Chapter Tactics to their full effectiveness.  An example, having some SW Intercessors with Counter-Attack is kinda ho-hum to me as they are more of a fire support choice for me that I would not want to get assaulted during the course of a game.  Granted, then you have Reivers who would use Counter-Attack much better.  Of course, this is based on Counter-Attack in the old edition.  No idea what our new Chapter Tactics might be in this edition.

 

This does make me wonder if SW Primaris should even have SW Chapter Tactics as by design, Chapter Tactics are how the SW chapter has evolved/specialized their combat doctrines which doesn't really make sense since the Primaris have been off fighting with RG as RG designed them.  It would be much, much better if Primaris had their own "Chapter Tactics" that exemplified/enhanced how they have been fighting since their creation.

[Grimtooth]

"Reivers, on the other hand, are a versatile and powerful unit in a Raven Guard army and function well with other assault units; they’re almost as mobile as jump troops with their grapnel launchers and grav-chutes..."

 

Like I was saying.

Yea, but not really what I was thinking either.  Sure they move faster, but when they have been all pumped up as being Terror Shock Troops of Dooooom with their slim-lined armor, I was thinking more of stealthy scare the hell out of the populace by attacking from the shadows and melting back into them.  Even the close combat weapon has more of a "assassins blade in the back" feel to it than a in your face fast attack feel. 

[Silverwolf]

Warning: massive speculation in this post.

 

so far we have see SM-centric Primaris so far and are also getting the SM-codez whicb will explain and help further detail out these units.

 

what IF the non-codex (minus GK as some references and the facebook page said it would take time Primaris-ize GK due to them being psyker focused) get non-codex Primaris once their respected codex comes out. Not once did I hear "Primaris have to follow the codex" in fact the lore states that the wulfen and black rage/red thirst was not eliminated. RG never forces SW to change that we know of. The SW could easilly Primaris-ize some SW's and say "Reivers? Nah, Wolf Stalkers armed with our armory."

 

 

Considering that the Imperium 1 Index tells us to refer to Codex Astartes entries for our Primaris Marines, I find that unlikely.

 

My wild speculation is that the chapter specific rules (Like Ultra's fallback, and Raven's stealth) will be what give our Primaris Marines that 'wolfy' touch, perhaps combined with some named commander specific rules that grant X to your army when included.

 

Also worth noting that from what I'm reading, Codex SM will be almost as big as the 8th Ed. book it self, and contain the rules for all major chapters (inc. Space Wolves), as such 'our' Codex, will be the SM codex (Kind of nice not having to buy 2 again).

Edited July 18, 2017 by Silverwolf

[Grimtooth]

 

Warning: massive speculation in this post.

 

so far we have see SM-centric Primaris so far and are also getting the SM-codez whicb will explain and help further detail out these units.

 

what IF the non-codex (minus GK as some references and the facebook page said it would take time Primaris-ize GK due to them being psyker focused) get non-codex Primaris once their respected codex comes out. Not once did I hear "Primaris have to follow the codex" in fact the lore states that the wulfen and black rage/red thirst was not eliminated. RG never forces SW to change that we know of. The SW could easilly Primaris-ize some SW's and say "Reivers? Nah, Wolf Stalkers armed with our armory."

 

 

Considering that the Imperium 1 Index tells us to refer to Codex Astartes entries for our Primaris Marines, I find that unlikely.

 

My wild speculation is that the chapter specific rules (Like Ultra's fallback, and Raven's stealth) will be what give our Primaris Marines that 'wolfy' touch, perhaps combined with some named commander specific rules that grant X to your army when included.

 

Also worth noting that from what I'm reading, Codex SM will be almost as big as the 8th Ed. book it self, and contain the rules for all major chapters (inc. Space Wolves), as such 'our' Codex, will be the SM codex (Kind of nice not having to buy 2 again).

 

From the White Scars and Raven Guard articles, it seems like only select Primaris units will benefit from specific Chapter Tactics based upon their roles.  Reivers are pointed out as benefiting from the RG chapter tactics and both Reivers and Inceptors are pointed out as especially benefiting from the White Scars chapter tactics.  For example, I am sure that UM chapter tactics will likely benefit Hellblasters/Intercessors/Aggressors more than Reivers/Inceptors with the shooting stuff. 

[Grimtooth]

My thoughts on chapter tactics seems to pretty much be reinforced by the leaked Imperial Fists chapter tactics that looks to pretty much benefit Hellblasters/Aggressors/Inceptors the most by removing the benefit to saving throws by being in cover but is kinda meh for Reivers/Intercessors.

[Guest Triszin]

 

"Reivers, on the other hand, are a versatile and powerful unit in a Raven Guard army and function well with other assault units; they’re almost as mobile as jump troops with their grapnel launchers and grav-chutes..."

 

Like I was saying.

Yea, but not really what I was thinking either.  Sure they move faster, but when they have been all pumped up as being Terror Shock Troops of Dooooom with their slim-lined armor, I was thinking more of stealthy scare the hell out of the populace by attacking from the shadows and melting back into them.  Even the close combat weapon has more of a "assassins blade in the back" feel to it than a in your face fast attack feel. 

 

I will attempt to use the wolf reivers in this manner, Have them pop up and throw shock grenades, terror a troop.

THen smash wulfen into said troop and watch the results.

 

Just using the reivers to divert attention just before the charge, and hopefully lower the chances of a wulfen taking a wound from overwatch fire

[Grimtooth]

Yea the Reivers grenades are straight up pure support for Wulfen and hopefully TWC as well. Those grab chutes would be money right when your TWC or Wulfen are about to charge a massive gun line.

[wilkco]

only thing I am not liking about the primaris models currently is that they are all the same look for each chapter, would be good if you could get a chapter specific upgrade pack like skulls strapped to the guns or wolf pelt legs just to make them look different from the other chapter ones. because you know us wolves do not like to have standard looking stuff :)

[Guest]

only thing I am not liking about the primaris models currently is that they are all the same look for each chapter, would be good if you could get a chapter specific upgrade pack like skulls strapped to the guns or wolf pelt legs just to make them look different from the other chapter ones. because you know us wolves do not like to have standard looking stuff

 

 

same could be said for our scouts, bikers, and vehicles. In due time I expect there may be some SW-centric models but that will come around the same time as our codex if not later.

[Silverwolf]

 

From the White Scars and Raven Guard articles, it seems like only select Primaris units will benefit from specific Chapter Tactics based upon their roles.  Reivers are pointed out as benefiting from the RG chapter tactics and both Reivers and Inceptors are pointed out as especially benefiting from the White Scars chapter tactics.  For example, I am sure that UM chapter tactics will likely benefit Hellblasters/Intercessors/Aggressors more than Reivers/Inceptors with the shooting stuff. 

 

 

Agreed, but that is in line with the thinking that it benefits the 'flavour' of that given chapter - not every Primaris unit is a fit for the overarching tactics of a given chapter.

[Guest Triszin]

Just a random thought I had,

 

WOuld be fitting if Ragnar was primarized and put as the great wolf of the wolf spears.

 

after all he destroyed the real wolf spear, the spear of russ

Edited July 19, 2017 by Triszin

[NightHowler]

At Ragnar's farewell feast Grimnar pulls him aside and whispers in his ear, "Rags, I know you'll make a wonderful Great Wolf. Just take better care this spear than you did the last spear, ok?"

[Guest Triszin]

At Ragnar's farewell feast Grimnar pulls him aside and whispers in his ear, "Rags, I know you'll make a wonderful Great Wolf. Just take better care this spear than you did the last spear, ok?"

3rd day on the job. the entire wolf spears get sucked into the warp. I'd giggle

[Leif Bearclaw]

after all he destroyed the real wolf spear, the spear of russ

Um, he didn't. If memory serves he loses it in Grey Hunter by throwing it at Magnus. Then the Sons get hold of it and use it as the focus of their 'turn all the SWs Wulfen plan', but Ragnar recovers it (with the help of the old 13th, before Warzone Fenris ed them up) at the end of the second Lee Lightner book. Which is pretty much what ends Ragnar's exile with the Wolfblades.

[Guest Triszin]

 

after all he destroyed the real wolf spear, the spear of russ

Um, he didn't. If memory serves he loses it in Grey Hunter by throwing it at Magnus. Then the Sons get hold of it and use it as the focus of their 'turn all the SWs Wulfen plan', but Ragnar recovers it (with the help of the old 13th, before Warzone Fenris ed them up) at the end of the second Lee Lightner book. Which is pretty much what ends Ragnar's exile with the Wolfblades.

 

then Im a little confused

[MaveriK]

Just a random thought I had,

 

WOuld be fitting if Ragnar was primarized and put as the great wolf of the wolf spears.

 

after all he destroyed the real wolf spear, the spear of russ

What happens to his current great company if that would happen? I can't see Ragnar abandon his men and the memory of Berek, just to have your guys fluff dream come true.... LOL

[Guest Triszin]

not a fluff dream of mine, just a random thought, that is now based on a lie!

 

As I thought ragnar was hated because he destroyed the spear of russ.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Maybe his company goes with him, to teach the Primaris all the actual stuff they need to know

[Grimtooth]

If SM codex has a named Primaris model, we could probably expect the same in the SW codex however I don't think anyone will have one of their special characters boosted to Primaris for the reasons I have given previously.

 

I expect the Wolfspear to get their own named Primaris "wolf lord" to lead them, but that could just as easily end up being a Gravis captain with access to the SW armory. I am of two thoughts on this because the Indomitus Primaris have mostly been broken up and sent out to reinforce existing chapters who are in dire need, but the Wolfspear seems to have been created/maintained for a specific purpose of guarding that rift thing.

 

A new speculation that that popped into my head with the Wolfspear being tasked with a specific purpose would be that they could be their own "formation" in our SW codex which would lead to Wolfspear specific characters. This could also lead to them being allied/supported by other armies other than SW since guarding this whole rift thing appears to be pretty important and beyond the scope of what units are in a Primaris only force such as the Wolfspear.

[Grimtooth]

Maybe his company goes with him, to teach the Primaris all the actual stuff they need to know

I can just imagine how that would work out:

 

"Ok my Primaris brethren, once the drop pod lands, we rush out with Jarl Ragnar and turn the snow red!"

 

"Umm, we cannot ride in droppods....."

 

"Hmmm, well then as soon as the Blessed Land Raider assault ramps drop, we rush with Jarl Ragnar and turn the snow red!!"

 

"Oooooh, yea we can't ride in Land Raiders either."

 

"......."

[Dantay VI]

Personal speculation from me would be that, one of he 13th company would get primarisised.

 

At a time when the Wolves are already depleted I doubt Logan would allow another great company to be lost to the Chapter (2 wrecked an a third getting hormone treatment and leaving).

[Grimtooth]

Personal speculation from me would be that, one of he 13th company would get primarisised.

 

At a time when the Wolves are already depleted I doubt Logan would allow another great company to be lost to the Chapter (2 wrecked an a third getting hormone treatment and leaving).

I think there will always be a 13th Co since they represent more than those lost to the curse.  It will always be the black stone on the grand annulus.  But there are two on the annulus that no longer have a great company on them which the Wolfspear could easily be slotted into.

 

Another possibility for the Wolfspear, and even Primaris for that matter, is that like some of our SW units, they end up falling under the company of the Great Wolf and the rest of the chapter remains the same with a couple of wolf guard being elevated to jarls to rebuild the two lost companies.

 

I am really leaning towards the Wolfspear just becoming a formation in the codex.