8th Edition Ultramarine Tactica and Unit discussion.

[Ishagu]

What are people thoughts on the Las-Plas variant?

 

The plasmas aren't Heavy, and the vehicle will often be within 12" range...

[Seahawk]

If you overcharge and roll a 1, the whole vehicle dies. Dumb.

 

Otherwise, I have two lol.

[Frater Cornelius]

Does it die? Wasn't that something along the lines of 3 or d6 MW? Besides, Marines have re-rolls up their bum. Edited June 26, 2017 by Immersturm

[Ishagu]

Yeah with so many re rolls I can't imagine that really being a major issue.

 

I think it's potentially more damaging than the Assault Cannon and more flexible than a Twin Lascannon.

[derLumpi]

I think your game may largely come from not knowing the Necrons. For example you now realize you shoot a squad dead, and don't leave any survivors. Necrons are crazy resilient now, without a Decurion. You'd probably play it a lot different next time.

 

Yeah, exactly. If I would have killed those Flayed Ones the game would had a different result. Well, I will have a second chance and I vow to destroy those xenos!

 

But I miss our doctrines and those rerolls. 

[ShVagYeR]

Played another game today, Power Level 100 came up to (roughly 2000 points per side). The opponent played Chaos Space Marines.

 

Grav-cannon Devastators were very good with Guilliman's reroll bubble. They reduced a Chaos Land Raider to 1 wound and decimated a CSM squad.

Guilliman didn't have a chance to shine except for providing his bubbles, but he did shoot a Daemon Prince off the board.

Three 5-man Tactical Squads with plasma guns and combi-plasmas, while not very threatening, inflicted a decent number of wounds.

In general Calgar and Guilliman are excellent force multipliers, I find. Calgar single-handedly took down 5 Chaos Terminators, losing 1 wound in the process.

A Razorback with twin assault cannon shot a unit of Cultists off an objective in two turns, then claimed the objective.

 

Also in a previous game against Orks (Power Level 75) Guilliman died and came back with 6 wounds. My opponent's face expression was priceless. :)

 

All in all I've played three 8th edition games so far. That's more than I played 40k in last two years (excluding Kill Team and Shadow War: Armageddon as those are separate games). Really love how this edition plays. And now back to painting some Primaris, can't wait to field them and see how they do. :)

[Thunder_god]

I'm building my army as quick as I can.  I can't wait to take the field.  It's been way too long.

[Marcus Arias]

Me too @thundergod! I am at the Gold stage of painting Guilliman, it just takes forever, but I am itching to play him on the field!

[Seahawk]

I've sprayed my Guilliman gold, I just don't know how I want to shade it. Brown? Blue? Purple? gah!

[Paulinus]

So onto some tactics again with what I've noticed in my limited gaming.

 

We've been playing 2000pt games so these are based on my observations at this level and purely driven by my gaming group meta so take this with a grain of salt.

 

Balance is certainly something to aim for I think in 8th.  With every army able to deploy a variety of tactics and types, if you go too far one way you will struggle against something else.  Take hordes vs. lots of armour.  With so many hordes out there you need to ensure you have the tools to deal with it.  A pile of lascannons won't help against a horde of nids or orks.

 

Take on all comers lists seem to be the better choice if you plan on playing local or pick up games. Unless your meta is set or you are playing in a competitive scene. 

 

Balance I think is also a key to Ultramarine list building.  We have a big bonus with Guilliman.  One of the best buffs in the game.  So far, I find he is most effective creating bubbles and acting as a reserve and defensive unit in the back to mid field.  While he is a beast in his own right, if you can mange to buff 2-3 units  that can put some hurt on he can really multiply those units' effectiveness. 

 

Another good cheap buff character is Telion.  Now, I know some people don't like scouts or think they are overcosted.  Fair enough but Telion makes them so much better.  The BS bonus coupled with a Guilliman or captain re-roll makes them deadly.  I always take a unit for character sniping and so far it has paid off.  They've managed to snipe a Necron Lord and Chaos sorcerer.  the issue is my group is on to me and tend to target them, which is fine since they aren't targeting something else.  And remember that on wounds of 6s they inflict a mortal wound in addition to its normal damage.  Meaning that if you get a 6 you cause the normal damage and a mortal wound.  Not bad against high T units and you have the G man's re-roll nearby.

 

The greatest weapon in terms of balance and tactical flexibility in my mind is the Missile Launcher.  Good against armour and hordes.  And devastators can take 4.  This is the unit I like to keep the Primarch close to.   I typically take a squad with 10 guys and the ammo cherub for the extra shot and an Apothecary nearby.  Apothecaries are hit and miss but if you want to bring a model back it should be a ML. 

 

For dedicated anti armour, the FW Sicaran Venator comes to mind.  It isn't too bad with 3 str 12 shots and up to 9 heavy bolter shots.  Plus being able to move and shoot without penalty is nice.  A las predator as well can dish out 4D6 points of damage and can survive an alpha strike sometimes.

 

For anti horde go with a whirlwind (my preference is castellan rounds) over a Thunderfire.  I haven't had much luck with the TF. 

 

Tigurius is not bad given his re-roll.  I love smite as a good finisher or to hit something tough. 

 

Admittedly, I have yet to decide what I prefer using on the offensive part of my list as I have been playing mostly defensively.  Terminators are sound enough, able to be placed just about anywhere but lack enough fire power in my mind.  I tried vanguard vets and while good they don't last long.  My thinking is that troops in transports moving up supported by good fire. 

 

So to sum up, I think Ultramarines will do well with a balanced force.  Create a good fire base with options to deal with hordes and armour and use the G-man bubble to augment and have a good decent mobile capability to take objectives, disrupt or to pin the enemy down.    

[Ishagu]

Ok, between the following two options which do you guys think is better?

 

Option 1:

-Sicaran Tank, Las-Cannon Sponsons, Heavy Bolter

-5 Company Veterans, Combi Plasma, 4 Plasma Guns, 5 Chainswords

-Razorback, Las-Cannon and Twin Plasma Gun

 

Option 2:

-Leviathan Dreadnought, Stormcannon Array, Drill with Melta Gun, Heavy Flamers

-5 Tyrannic War Veterans/Sternguard

-Razorback with Las Cannon and Twin Plasma Gun

[Captain Idaho]

Option 2.

 

Wouldn't bother the Tyrannic War veterans though. Stick to Sternguard.

[derLumpi]

I'm going to give Termies a try in the next game. We settled on a 35 points game. 

2 Tac squads, termies, Vindicare - the rest is still open for decision.

[Ishagu]

Option 2.

 

Wouldn't bother the Tyrannic War veterans though. Stick to Sternguard.

It's an issue of points, I only have 95 points to spare and the unit needs to be an Elite Choice :-/

TW vets are same as Base Sternguard except better against Nids.

[Guiltysparc]

Got another game in with the primaris marines from the stater box vs the death guard.

 

Man, hellblasters...when you give them the captain and lieutenant buffs (rerolls 1 to hit and wound), they just wreck anything.  The plasma incinerator, aside from having 30" range is also AP -4 (rather than -3 like a regular plasmagun).  They are 30" almost-meltaguns.  

 

Option 2.

Wouldn't bother the Tyrannic War veterans though. Stick to Sternguard.

It's an issue of points, I only have 95 points to spare and the unit needs to be an Elite Choice :-/
TW vets are same as Base Sternguard except better against Nids.

 

 

All 4 assassin options are 90pts or less and fit in the elite slot...maybe an vindicare to go with your eversore?

[LordDrakon]

Had a 2k tournament last Sunday went Guilliman plus full primaris marines. I went 2-1 losing a very close game to another Ultramainre player, Hellblasters and 30" ap1 bolters with Guilliman reroll do work! I was also very happy with Interceptors 18 heavybolter shots combined with the ability too assault and disrupt things like manticores is clutch but I'm almost certain they will be replaced with reivers. If your going non mech never leave home without an ancient the ability to kill stuff in your opponents turns is scary!

This was the list
 

Battalion/Super Heavy Aux Detachment

13 drops

9 Command points

 

HQ/LOW

 

Roboute Guilliman

 

Primaris Lieutenant

Master Crafted Boltrifle

 

Primaris Lieutenant

Master Crafted Boltrifle

 

Troops

 

5-Intercessor Squad

Bolt Rifles

 

5-Intercessor Squad

Bolt Rifles

 

5-Intercessor Squad

Bolt Rifles

 

Elites

 

Primaris Ancient

bolt rifle 0

 

 

Apothcary

boltpistol Chainsword 0

 

 

Heavy

5 Hellblaste

5 Plasma Incinerator

 

5 Hellblaster

5 Plasma Incinerator

 

 

5 Hellblaster

5 Plasma Incinerator

 

 

Fast

 

3-Interceptor squad

 

3-Interceptor squad

 

1998

[Prot]

The list looks like mine, except I'm not using Guilliman and I only own 5 Helblasters. I do like the odd flyer though. So Guilliman gets replaced with a squad of Cataphractii Terms with claws/chainfists and they have seriously surprised me. 

 

The Stormhawk I've used has been great but I use the Typhoon missile as the wording on the other missiles (forgot the name) really suck. But this can be a real threat to almost anything on the board, but it might be too expensive at about 215.

[LordDrakon]

@prot honestly this how feel about most of the forgeworld stuff then points seem abit too high for what you get. With razorbacks bringing cheap armour and firepower I find it hard to shell out the points for say a sicaran or a fw dread.

 

On the topic of mech I've added sgt. Chronus too my mech for 2nd hq 58 pts is damn good stick him in tank you use for 2+ to hit and bam!

[Brother Captain Ed]

The list looks like mine, except I'm not using Guilliman and I only own 5 Helblasters. I do like the odd flyer though. So Guilliman gets replaced with a squad of Cataphractii Terms with claws/chainfists and they have seriously surprised me.

 

The Stormhawk I've used has been great but I use the Typhoon missile as the wording on the other missiles (forgot the name) really suck. But this can be a real threat to almost anything on the board, but it might be too expensive at about 215.

Serious question: do you really find you get more out of Cataphractii than Guilliman?

[Prot]

 

The list looks like mine, except I'm not using Guilliman and I only own 5 Helblasters. I do like the odd flyer though. So Guilliman gets replaced with a squad of Cataphractii Terms with claws/chainfists and they have seriously surprised me.

The Stormhawk I've used has been great but I use the Typhoon missile as the wording on the other missiles (forgot the name) really suck. But this can be a real threat to almost anything on the board, but it might be too expensive at about 215.

Serious question: do you really find you get more out of Cataphractii than Guilliman?

No not 'more than' but they don't cost as much. The left over points get dumped into the flyer. Two deep threats that I have trouble including in my lists if I include Guilliman.

 

I am just still trying hard to not to use Guilliman or any LoW. These guys are total game changers. I played a game I barely snuck by 'normal' HQs. I know these games would have been definitely more in my favour if I include all of those re-rolls, and remove would be assaults by just advancing Guilliman.

 

I feel the same about LoW Magnus. He just works very different, does not empower neatly as good as Guilliman and he can't be hidden, but the end result is these guys feel like massive game changers. For example, I just played against a nasty Astra militarum list loaded with tanks and tons of little Scions special weapon squads. My Thousand Sons can't do a heck of a lot vs that kind of ranged fire power. I added Magnus, and trashed half his vehicles with mortal wounds. I just think I want to learn these armies without leaning on such high end reinforcements.

 

I take the games where my Ultras barely win, I know if I take out some stuff and throw in Bobby G, it's probably a decisive win for me. On the other hand I hope there are real counters to these guys, and perhaps my meta at just hasn't figured out how to deal with yet?

[Brother Captain Ed]

 

 

The list looks like mine, except I'm not using Guilliman and I only own 5 Helblasters. I do like the odd flyer though. So Guilliman gets replaced with a squad of Cataphractii Terms with claws/chainfists and they have seriously surprised me.

The Stormhawk I've used has been great but I use the Typhoon missile as the wording on the other missiles (forgot the name) really suck. But this can be a real threat to almost anything on the board, but it might be too expensive at about 215.

Serious question: do you really find you get more out of Cataphractii than Guilliman?

No not 'more than' but they don't cost as much. The left over points get dumped into the flyer. Two deep threats that I have trouble including in my lists if I include Guilliman.

 

I am just still trying hard to not to use Guilliman or any LoW. These guys are total game changers. I played a game I barely snuck by 'normal' HQs. I know these games would have been definitely more in my favour if I include all of those re-rolls, and remove would be assaults by just advancing Guilliman.

 

I feel the same about LoW Magnus. He just works very different, does not empower neatly as good as Guilliman and he can't be hidden, but the end result is these guys feel like massive game changers. For example, I just played against a nasty Astra militarum list loaded with tanks and tons of little Scions special weapon squads. My Thousand Sons can't do a heck of a lot vs that kind of ranged fire power. I added Magnus, and trashed half his vehicles with mortal wounds. I just think I want to learn these armies without leaning on such high end reinforcements.

 

I take the games where my Ultras barely win, I know if I take out some stuff and throw in Bobby G, it's probably a decisive win for me. On the other hand I hope there are real counters to these guys, and perhaps my meta at just hasn't figured out how to deal with yet?

 

I know that nothing is set in stone and we're in this strange half-dawn, half-twilight before the actual Index arrives, but...perhaps...perhaps the Primarchs ARE the counters?  I mean, what would the 1k Sons have done in that AM parking lot without Magnus, for example?

 

The Primarchs are great, no question.  Uniquely so, even.  But I have the strong impression that if you are playing the neighborhood of 2,000 points, a LoW is fair game. 

[Captain Idaho]

I don't think comparing Guilliman to Cataphractii is really fair. He's a character, warlord, leader. Yet he's also a solid fighter. He's to be compared to other single models.

 

In a Space Marines army he's pretty unique in that he's just superior to any other characters as he has a superior statlines and armament. However, his role remains as a leader, enhancing the performance of those around him.

 

He does this better than anyone and is harder to kill, whilst having amazing offensive potential. You do pay through the nose for it. Considering I can get a Space Marine Captain in Cataphractii Armour with a Combi plasma and Relic Blade that can deepstrike with Terminators, for just 162pts, it becomes a case of do you really want to fork out those points?

 

It's a matter of playstyle in my view. Rerolling hits and wounds is good of course, but consider the role of each unit in the army and whether they can perform that role with or without assistance. If rerolling ones is all you need to ensure your unit achieves its designation, or even no rerolls, then why do you need that character?

 

Winning games of 40K isn't just getting more kills quickly. I've lost track how many games I've won after losing most of my army and doing almost no damage, simply because I stuck to the objectives.

[LordDrakon]

I'm thinking of cutting tacs altogether. The exTra 2 command from battalion can be nice but I'm thinking of adding either a couple of plasma veterans and or 2 or even 3 4 man heavybolter devs.....

[Ishagu]

Prot, you have to embrace Guilliman.

He's great, but the points are very fair :-)

 

By the way guys, look into the Chaplain Dreadnought. That is a cool HQ, very powerful and contributes to the army as more than just a commander or melee beat-stick.

 

212 points for a WS2+ BS2+,9 wound Dread with a 3+ 5++ and 6+ ignore wounds. This includes a Twin Lascannon, CC weapon and Storm Bolter. He's a character so can't be targeted, and provides both great firepower and significant CC capabilities in your backfield :-)

Edited July 1, 2017 by Ishagu

[Brother Captain Sirus]

After a long break since 6th i dusted off the old marines and had a few games, 3 in total so far.

 

Some initial thoughts so far:

 

Tac squads - unless you are trying to deploy faster than your opponent just take them in 5 man squads, my reasoning for this is simple, morale checks doesn't threaten 5 man squads unless it takes heavy damage anyway. Secondly if you combat squad they are deployed seperately and still use up two deployments, so your opponent will get first turn this way. In conclusion take them in two seperate squads and get two sergeants, as they improve the morale of booth and you can get more combi weapons.

 

Units i have used so far:

Sgt w/ combi-plasma and plasmagun squad, good damage and generally useful for all situations vs hordes and armour, as due to disappointing rolls i am completely disenchanted with flamers.

Tactical with Grav-Cannon - yet again good in both situations.

 

Devastators with 2 lascannons and 2 plasmacannons, absolutely love these guys, put them next to a bare bones captain and kill a deff dread in one turn. They are now one of my units that are priority targets to opponents but since i deploy them in cover they can withstand their fair share of damage.

 

Dakka Predator - that Autocannon is great and doing 3 damage per hit should never be overlooked.

 

And the special find in this edition has been an Assault squad on foot, armed with 3 plasma pistols and a power sword on sergeant. On the face of things they are alright but nothing to write home about but when they are rolling around in a twin assault cannon razorback with a chaplain they really put out some hurt and less than 200 points including transport they are cheap.

 

Overall i'm loving this ed and refining my list after each game, should be playing again in the coming week and i will be running an Ironclad Dread for the first time this edition so hoping for good things.