8th Edition Ultramarine Tactica and Unit discussion.

[Seahawk]

Played a game last night against SM.

 

Highly rate land raiders, storm talons, intercessors, and scouts. He used Shrike to DS with the jumpers to give them always rerolls. It was quite strong!

[ronin_cse]

The thing is, Guilliman is a force multiplier.

There isn't enough of a force there for him to multiply!

You should really take Calgar instead as he's still great but also fills the compulsory HQ slot.

 

 

I am aware that using Guilliman in such a small point game (he's over a 1/3 of the army!) probably isn't a good idea but I don't care, I wanna use him

 

 

Although snark aside I could drop him and take a squad of Inceptors, a Primaris Lieutenant, and a Primaris Ancient....actually might do that instead

 

Edit: and then I could drop the Assassin and the Lieutenant and take a librarian in terminator armor (recently moved and this is the only librarian model I can find), this might actually be how I'll go with it.

Edited June 23, 2017 by ronin_cse

[Ishagu]

Played a game last night against SM.

 

Highly rate land raiders, storm talons, intercessors, and scouts. He used Shrike to DS with the jumpers to give them always rerolls. It was quite strong!

I'll potentially be running 3 squads of Intercessors at an upcoming tournament. I think they could be good, certainly decent at the price tag.

[Frater Cornelius]

 

Played a game last night against SM.

 

Highly rate land raiders, storm talons, intercessors, and scouts. He used Shrike to DS with the jumpers to give them always rerolls. It was quite strong!

I'll potentially be running 3 squads of Intercessors at an upcoming tournament. I think they could be good, certainly decent at the price tag.

 

 

You people are weird... :D

[Prot]

Intercessors are strong? I don't know... the Inceptors are good but so expensive. Intercessors I think will be a lot better with that transport.

 

I have to face Astra tonight and the way my Ultras have been playing I have a strong feeling I'm going to get my blue arse kicked. Anyone have advice? No Guilliman though.... still trying to avoid power creep in my lists...

 

I wish I could fit a landraider in my list but aside from scout I have nothing to put in them... maybe Grav Cents? ( kinda sucks the Primaris stuff doesn't fit)

 

So Seahawk. You still mowed the marine player down though? With.... necrons?!? ;)

[Ishagu]

Grav Cents in a Landraider works very nicely Prot. I've run that unit in two games now, although I lost the second!

[Seahawk]

Sorry, I hate the primaris names. I meant Inceptors (which I'll now call interceptors forever more) are amazing.

[Seahawk]

I played my Harlequins last night, because I'd been dying to try them out after seeing their new rules. I'll write up my thoughts on that over there!

[Prot]

Grav Cents in a Landraider works very nicely Prot. I've run that unit in two games now, although I lost the second!

Without using Guilliman (I don't know how he could fit in ) I just couldn't find the points to do it in my last game. It seems while I test Primaris, I don't have the points for both of those units.

 

  

Sorry, I hate the primaris names. I meant Inceptors (which I'll now call interceptors forever more) are amazing.

I thought that's what you meant. I'm using Primaris but they are so bad I have to believe they are holding a lot of kit and rules back on us. They simply aren't worth it at all imo. I love the models, painting them, the back ground but man they stink. This game is so incredibly destructive now that expensive, slow Bolter dudes have no real place. Scouts will do more for the buck every time, saving you points for the real work horses.

 

This is why I'm sure they're holding out on the real 'Intercessors '. Sadly in may be moot. If the Redemptor Dread comes out you'll still need to save those points for real damage dealers. -1 Primaris bolsters are essentially 7 th edition Bolters. Last time I checked, the only reason people took Bolter squads was to get a heavy (Grav) weapon in the squad which Intercessors currently can't do.

[Aothaine]

 

Grav Cents in a Landraider works very nicely Prot. I've run that unit in two games now, although I lost the second!

Without using Guilliman (I don't know how he could fit in ) I just couldn't find the points to do it in my last game. It seems while I test Primaris, I don't have the points for both of those units.

 

  

Sorry, I hate the primaris names. I meant Inceptors (which I'll now call interceptors forever more) are amazing.

I thought that's what you meant. I'm using Primaris but they are so bad I have to believe they are holding a lot of kit and rules back on us. They simply aren't worth it at all imo. I love the models, painting them, the back ground but man they stink. This game is so incredibly destructive now that expensive, slow Bolter dudes have no real place. Scouts will do more for the buck every time, saving you points for the real work horses.

 

This is why I'm sure they're holding out on the real 'Intercessors '. Sadly in may be moot. If the Redemptor Dread comes out you'll still need to save those points for real damage dealers. -1 Primaris bolsters are essentially 7 th edition Bolters. Last time I checked, the only reason people took Bolter squads was to get a heavy (Grav) weapon in the squad which Intercessors currently can't do.

 

 

Totally agree. Primaris just don't have the survivability and firepower right now. 

[Ishagu]

Primaris by themselves don't, but what about Intercessors as merely the troops in a list?

 

55 points for 5 Scouts, I think 100 points for 5 Primaris Marines is not a bad deal when you factor the better weapon, 3+ and 2 Wounds...

Edited June 24, 2017 by Ishagu

[Kallas]

Primaris by themselves don't, but what about Intercessors as merely the troops in a list?

 

55 points for 5 Scouts, I think 100 points for 5 Primaris Marines is not a bad deal when you factor the better weapon, 3+ and 2 Wounds...

 

Yeah, they're essentially the same for resilience as Scouts (roughly as many Wounds as the equivalent points worth of Scouts, better base Save) their main drawback is their physical board presence where the Scouts have numbers (to help cut out reinforcement deployment zones) and their Concealed Positions deployment to set up some mid-field presence. I don't think the extra range on the Bolt Rifles has really been mentioned and, while somewhat niche, can help keep them plinking away as well as giving them a slightly longer Rapid Fire range than Tacticals, with an extra niche application being able to sit that 3" farther back from, say, an Ork unit, who'd then have a slightly longer distance to have to charge across. Like I said, very niche, but it is a dice game 

 

I have zero games to back it, so all theoryhammer, but they don't seem terrible, just very different. Their biggest drawback, in my opinion, is their lack of versatility - they bring Bolt Rifles, and that's all.

[Ishagu]

I've had a few games now, and I'm not finding the extra firepower Tacticals get through upgrades to have made much of a difference. They are either out of range, or have been assaulted and can't fire after retreating :-(

 

To that extent I think the more survivable Primaris, who by not having upgrades present less of a target in the first place, might be a better option.

 

I'll report when I actually get a few games with them. I'll still be providing most of the firepower in my lists from dedicated units.

Edited June 24, 2017 by Ishagu

[Kallas]

I've had a few games now, and I'm not finding the extra firepower Tacticals get through upgrades to have made much of a difference. They are either out of range, or have been assaulted and can't fire after retreating :-(

 

To that extent I think the more survivable Primaris, who by not having upgrades present less of a target in the first place, might be a better option.

 

That's fair. I've been thinking about how to use Tacticals and Combat Squads (either actual Combat Squads, or just two five-Marine squads) to kind of shoot-speed bump-shoot the big mobs down and the positioning/math kind of works out.

 

Eager to get some games in soon, as I have four full Tactical Squads as the basis of my pretty small collection, so kind of need them to work out! :D

 

I think one of the other big issues for the Intercessors is that, unlike say two squads of five Tacticals/Scouts, they're focus fire-able. By that I mean that putting wounds on them is kind of a matter of course. Putting a bunch of shots into a five-man squad of Tacticals that'll wipe them out is probably going to involve some measure of overkill, which means there'll likely be some lost wounds. On the other hand, a single Intercessor Squad will be easier to screen/hide than two five-man Tacticals so... *shrug* 

[Seahawk]

The only Newrines I find good/useful are the Interceptors. That many heavy bolter shots does hurt, and and with rerolls gets even better. Having not yet seen Hellblasters in combat I don't have an opinion on them yet, just theory.

 

Intercessorssorsssorsssss just look pointless to me. How about we try to work through what they give compared to other things:

 

- As backfield campers? Scout snipers are cheaper and can reach farther, and can target characters. 

- As midfield gunnery? Tactical squads bring more bodies and guns, not to mention better guns.

- As Troops tax? Scout bolters are half the price and come with better rules and weapon options.

- As a medium weight assault unit? Assault marines are cheaper and far superior at that task.

 

More cons:

- Can't get in transports.

- Suffer most from multi-wound shooting, where other Troops options don't suffer at all.

- Zero options for anything.

 

Pros:

- ...they look good?

[Aothaine]

 

Pros:

- ...they look good?

 

You hit it right on the nose there imho. The only pro is that they look damn good. The extra range and the -1AP are nice but they are only rapid fire 1 so you are getting less shooting for more wounds. In theory it could work but in 8th ed and how many weapons people are bringing to the table that do multiple wounds it just puts the entire Primaris line at a disadvantage.

 

I really like the hellblaster squad. But I also find that this unit is going to have a lot of problems unless they are spammed and I mean seriously spammed.

 

run a spearhead detachment like the following:

 

Primary Detachment

Spearhead Detachment

HQ - Primaris Captain

ELITE - Primaris Ancient

HEAVY SUPPORT - Hellblaster Squad x6

 

Secondary Detachment

Battalion Detachment

HQ - Something Cheap

HQ - Something Cheap

ELITE - Apothecary 1+

TROOP - Scout /w Sniper Rifles 3+

 

I know this is the Ultramarines forum. But running Blood Angels for Corbulo and an extra sang priest might actually do something here. From what I've read so far the two buffs stack giving your units +1 str and letting you revive people. It would be a little weird but you would have immense firepower with this list. I'll have to look into this more and see exactly how everything would pan out. 

 

Edit: The Sanguinary Priest buff does not stack. I reread the rule.

Edited June 25, 2017 by Aothaine

[Prot]

Well for the record I've actually played games with all the newness. The Inceptors are okay, not great though. I say that because they are very expensive essentially Heavy Bolter shots. There's nothing wrong with that except Ultras have a lot of ways of clearing chaff. The second thing to cost is they need support. 18" is their sweet spot but also leaves them very vulnerable.

 

As I play more games my opponents are much smarter about not exposing soft, powerful targets to my Inceptors.

 

Intercessors are a different problem. They are just more of the same. Bolters in 7th were better than they are now (essentially similar to intercessor Bolters). No one was singing the praises of vanilla Bolters in 7th. Sure they're great at smoking Orks but Hurricanes are far easier and cheap now.

 

The scouts as a point value are better at getting you to a Brigade. Against super aggressive armies, like Nids for example, they are gold. It's a very cheap way of negating deep strike goofiness from your opponent.

 

I'm using 5 man Intercessors squads. They are okay but I can tell you in my games there is zero practical reasons to take them over any other troop selection you have. I expect by end of July we'll find out the true agenda of GW with this unit but right now they're just very vanilla and lacklustre. They desperately need that transport option too.

[Aothaine]

Well for the record I've actually played games with all the newness. The Inceptors are okay, not great though. I say that because they are very expensive essentially Heavy Bolter shots. There's nothing wrong with that except Ultras have a lot of ways of clearing chaff. The second thing to cost is they need support. 18" is their sweet spot but also leaves them very vulnerable.

 

As I play more games my opponents are much smarter about not exposing soft, powerful targets to my Inceptors.

 

Intercessors are a different problem. They are just more of the same. Bolters in 7th were better than they are now (essentially similar to intercessor Bolters). No one was singing the praises of vanilla Bolters in 7th. Sure they're great at smoking Orks but Hurricanes are far easier and cheap now.

 

The scouts as a point value are better at getting you to a Brigade. Against super aggressive armies, like Nids for example, they are gold. It's a very cheap way of negating deep strike goofiness from your opponent.

 

I'm using 5 man Intercessors squads. They are okay but I can tell you in my games there is zero practical reasons to take them over any other troop selection you have. I expect by end of July we'll find out the true agenda of GW with this unit but right now they're just very vanilla and lacklustre. They desperately need that transport option too.

 

Something to keep in mind here is that mawlocs deep strike up to 1" from your units and 6" away from other mawlocs. So tyranids can still disrupt your lines. Just be careful so you don't think they can't get to your back lines. I've seen mawlocs do decent damage and tar pit important units. 

[Prot]

Yes I'm actually pretty worried about facing the local Nid opponents. Understandably they are very happy about 8th and I'm truly happy for them, but that's something super hard to defend against. I use the scouts to gvevmysya little more protection.

[Frater Cornelius]

Mawlocs can not charge after doing the 1" thing though, so you have one turn to get of them. My first game was against Genestealers, Broodlord, Trygon, Mawloc, Lictors and Warriors with Primaris and the Repulsor with approximated point cost. Intercessors were tougher than expected, but I still hated playing them (for the same reason I still somewhat dislike my Stormcasts) was that it breaks my heart to remove even a single model from the board. The Mawloc did 6MW on arrival but died right afterwards, the Trygon Prime followed next turn. Hellblasters are a real handful.

 

Primaris lack two things. One, speedbumps against assault, which might be solved by the new Dread and those rumoured Gravis Flamer guys. Two, protection from shooty alpha strike like combi-Terminators or artillery. I have no answer to the second other than having a smaller bodycount and thus being more likely to start. GK are superior in that regard, seeing as they are stronger in melee and can start in reserve.

[Captain Idaho]

My experience is Tactical Marines get plasma guns and combis (double plasma goodness) and that's amazing. -3 to saves is very useful.

 

And don't be afraid to Overcharge. Terminators hate it ;)

[Ishagu]

So how do you guys think this looks for a list? I'm really not sure if I'm thinking along the right lines...

 

HQ:

-Tigarius

 

Troops:

-5 man Intercessor Squad

-5 man Intercessor Squad

-5 man Intercessor Squad

 

Elites:

-5 Tartaros Terminators, Sgt with Plasma Blaster and Power Sword, Reaper Autocannon, 3 Combi Bolters, 3 Power Fists, Chainfist

-Relic Sicaran, Las-Cannon Sponsons

-Eversor Assasin

 

Heavy Support:

-Landraider, Multi Melta

-Vindicator Laser Destroyer, Storm Bolter

 

Lord of War:

-Roboute Guilliman

Edited June 25, 2017 by Ishagu

[Seahawk]

Since we know Intercessors are a complete waste of everything at the moment, I'd at a minimum drop a squad, at max drop them all for Scouts with snipers.

[derLumpi]

I olayed my first game. 500 points game. 

 

Telion

5 Sniper scouts

1 Heavy bolter

 

5 Tacticals (combi melta) and plasma gun

Razorback with AC

 

1 Vindicare

 

I lost to Necrons. :(

 

Necrons

1 Cryptek (not 100% sure - gave +1 to reanimation)

10 Warrior

5 Flayed Ones

1 Stalker (spider leg thingy)

They were tough but I think they got tougher getting reanimation at every start of the players turn. I shot 4 of the 5 Flayed Ones and they just came back the next turn. 

The spider leg thingy regained one wound in every round. 

 

I moved my scouts to much around. My Tac squad got wiped in the second round because I put them to far away at the front so they were a juicy target. 

I think I would have been better off with a drop pod than a Razorback or I go without a vehicle at those low points games and go all out infantry. 

[Prot]

So far I just haven't seen a reason to spend so many points on pods. That assault Cannon razorback is cheap and versatile.

 

I think your game may largely come from not knowing the Necrons. For example you now realize you shoot a squad dead, and don't leave any survivors. Necrons are crazy resilient now, without a Decurion. You'd probably play it a lot different next time. ;)