8th Edition Ultramarine Tactica and Unit discussion.

[Grim Dog Studios]

Sicarius is awesome as a counter to Ork boys and nid critters.

 

Perhaps worth me taking him then, I haven't played a game in years and I'm starting again with the release of 8th where one of my main opponents is a friend that has a collection of about 180 ork boys. 

[Captain Idaho]

That's a lot of bullet magnets.

 

Take a few Hurricane Bolters and Heavy Gunner Dreads (assault cannon and Twin autocannon).

 

Should even the odds.

[Seahawk]

I'm warming to centurions with heavy bolters and missile launchers. Able to clear both hordes and vehicles decently.

[Prot]

I like cents with Grav and hurricanes for my next game just for cost reasons. Plus now that they can't be prodded in I'm guessing people will try to assault them asap.

 

I'm still looking forward to testing the Typhoons tonight. I know Guilliman is going to be really good but I just don't want to default to him right out of the blocks.

 

Also I have been working on Guilliman for weeks on and off and I swore to myself I had to finish him before fielding him. What a ridiculous model to paint though.

[Ishagu]

Just played a game against Chaos, 8th edition. A few things to take away:

 

-Assault is back. Expect to get charged turn 1 every game.

-games really are fast

-Guilliman ia hands down incredible. An auto include in many types of lists.

-Grav Centurions are still overall the best. Grav is far, far better than the HB for a modest increase in points.

-Character Auras are very important

-Psykers are good. Potentially worth taking one just for defence against powers.

-Game is much more fun than it was in 7th

-You need screening units and the correct spacing!

 

I'll post some pics soon!

Edited June 15, 2017 by Ishagu

[LordDrakon]

Hey lads, played a few more games this week with my 2k mech list and wow! played vs a really weird soulburts eldar he had wk with sun and starcannons new psyker chick 3 serpents with all shurkien cannons. In said serpents were x2 10 man fire dragons and 5 wraith guard with flamers. He got 1st turn speed up into my death ball and hoped for the best....his wk took 7 wounds off a razorback. I was able to kill 2 serpents 10 fire dragons and 5 wriath guard my turn 1. his turn 2 he killed a few marine squads and with soulburts took Guilliman down! I rolled the 4+ to get back up and he conceded. Again I can't state how strong Guilliman and his re-roll bubble is with 6 razor backs it's just insane! Game 2 was vs horde IG with 3 wyverns. I got first turn refused flanked him and than wiped one flank out in 2 turns with very little loss. I was rolling into the rest of the army when we ran out of time and called it. Ratlings are scary! he had some hot dice and killed a few razor backs with mortal wounds from those cheeky buggers! I also learned marines in cover can be very difficult to shift without ap as his wyverns were pretty sad even with re-rolling wounds.  

As for Cents, I think a dev squad with razorback is a better investment, but the no minus to hit when moving.......

Edited June 16, 2017 by LordDrakon

[Seahawk]

So in turn 2 he conceded because Guilliman got back up? Wow...I have no words.

 

 

I don't like hearing that grav is still king, honestly. I hate how it looks on centurions. 

[LordDrakon]

Too be fair on my turn I wiped out the fire dragons and the last wave serpent. Also I don't think I'd take grav on cents as 1 grav cannon on a move with no minus seems like a waste to me.

Edited June 16, 2017 by LordDrakon

[Joukernaut]

Is anyoneconsidering assault centurion with hurricane bolters and twin-flamers?

Guns to clear hordes and drills to punch rhe big things. It seems they have the diversity I usually look for in units.

[Ishagu]

Assault Centurions are good, a friend runs them.

They require a transport to deliver (same issue as Grav Centurions) but are cheaper.

 

They can also be used as a counter charge unit. I'm not sure I'd pick flamers over Meltas - remember that the Hurricane Bolters deliver 36 shots at 12"

[Toxichobbit]

So in turn 2 he conceded because Guilliman got back up? Wow...I have no words.

 

 

I don't like hearing that grav is still king, honestly. I hate how it looks on centurions. 

 

Don't get too concerned just yet. Personally, I'm not convinced. It's going to take more than just people online saying they are for me to accept that grav Cents are the way forward.

 

For light infantry, I'd rather have heavy bolters. AP-1 is enough to deal with 5+ or worse troops like Guardsmen, Gaunts, Boyz, Kabalites etc. While grav cannons have more shots than heavy bolters, they're also more expensive and in the case of Centurions you're paying more for the grav's 4 shots than the two heavy bolters 6 shots.

 

Against vehicles/big beasties, I've found that Str5 just doesn't cut it. The AP-3 of grav is really nice, but with 4 shots at Str 5 it just isn't getting enough damage through for me to consider grav as anything but a stop gap for anti-big stuff.

 

Where grav really shines is against medium/heavy infantry. I'm not so worried about activating the D3 wounds, because most infantry is 1 wound anyway. It's more the combination of multiple shots, Str5 and AP-3 that I want for dealing with any infantry that is 4+ or better.

 

Given that things are very much in flux, I believe that it's way to early to make difinitive statements about grav Centurions, or even grav in general, being the best. People saying that are being premature. Already, we're seeing that AM, Tyranids, Drukhari and Orks are a lot stronger this edition and are very credible threats. All of those armies use a combination of light infantry and vehicles/monstrous creatures, with very limited amounts of grav's favoured prey, medium/heavy infantry. Going heavily into grav against those armies seems to be a mistake, it's too expensive and not ideal against a large chunk of their forces. Where grav will shine is against the smaller, elite armies that rely on quality infantry with decent (4+ or better) saves. That's where it's multi-shot AP-3 will shine. So against Marines (and their variants), Chaos, T'au, Craftworld Aeldari etc grav will be well worth loading up on. For the horde armies and all comers though, I'm going with a balance of different weapons over the (imo) now outdated grav spam.

 

And I couldn't be happier about it .

 

Edit: I'm also really happy to see salvo has gone and grav is now Rapid Fire/Heavy. I feel it opens up the use of grav-guns for more units. I've always wanted to make a Tactical Squad with a grav-gun, or have some combi-grav on characters or Sternguard. Now I feel like I can without penalising myself due to the lack of relentless on certain units.

Edited June 16, 2017 by Toxichobbit

[Ishagu]

There are so many fast vehicles and monsters with 3+ saves.

Those Grav Cannons doing D3 wounds each is what really sets them apart.

[Toxichobbit]

I get what you're saying, but 5s to wound is a big downer. I'd rather use weapons that are specialised for taking out vehicles and monsters than use grav. Even against something as flimsy as War Walkers, I've felt like putting grav shots into them was a waste of time. There are much better targets for grav and much better weapons for killing vehicles.

[Captain Idaho]

That's my position. Grav is strongest against Marines and their twisted cousins. Against everything else it is okay but expensive. I'd rather save points and use anti tank for anti tank and anti infantry for anti infantry.

 

I believe Orks will be powerful this edition. Take Grav against them as your primary weapon and they may laugh and wring their hands, not believing their luck.

[Toxichobbit]

I'd use it against Craftworld and T'au too (in fact anything with a primarily 4+ or better save). Because of the changes to cover grav's high AP really helps. With heavy bolters and the like, their basic infantry (Fire Warriors, Aspect Warriors etc) have still got a 50% chance of saving in cover, where as the -3 from grav changes it to a 16.6% chance (the lack of D3 wounds will be mostly irrelevant). That's a big difference and imo makes it worth using grav against them. With T'au especially, grav is really good because it's fantastic against the smaller battlesuits as well as the line infantry.

[Schultzhoffen]

On the other hand, the AP value of grav allows you to reliably kill tau, orks, 'nids, etc far easier than you could in 7th?

 

I'm torn, though, because I'd be expecting to face marines, chaos, eldar, tau and daemons.

 

At least with grav cannons I'm getting plenty of shots. Heavy bolters, while cheap, just don't do it for me. I'm also keen on twin assault cannons - enter the razorback. I'm looking at running at least 4 with twin assault cannons.

 

If I could take a 10 man dev squad ( like in the heresy armies), I'd definitely consider heavy bolters. 30 shots would be pretty appealing.

 

I'm toying with a couple of Stalker tanks. They're much better against ground targets than they used to be and pump out a lot of shots.

 

Another option is a predator (or two) with only an auto cannon.

 

The problem I'm finding is that I can't fit in everything in 2000 points (or even close). I suspect the points may creep up till 2250- 2500 as 8th progresses.

[Captain Idaho]

I'm not overly fussed with cover since the changes to the rules for it are area terrain or nothing.

 

Regardless, points wise you get just under 3 Heavy Bolters for every Grav cannon (a mere 2pts difference).

 

So if we compare 1 Grav cannon to 3 Heavy bolters, it's about 4 shots vs 9. That makes a difference. So if we consider a Grav Centurion squad with 3 Grav Cannons, you're roughly against 9 Heavy Bolters. That's 12 shots vs 26 (rounding down to help the Grav cannons and there was some loose change in points).

 

Consider that for a moment. You paid points for around 6 kills against Eldar Aspect Warriors in cover at 24" vs about 6 against the same target at 36".

 

The figures go up for the Heavy Bolters if shooting outside cover or more lightly armoured targets.

 

Don't get me wrong, there is a place for Grav cannons in an all comers list but it isn't the wonder one stop weapon it was. One or two in a list is sufficient and more effective use of your points.

[Captain Idaho]

On the other hand, the AP value of grav allows you to reliably kill tau, orks, 'nids, etc far easier than you could in 7th?

I'm torn, though, because I'd be expecting to face marines, chaos, eldar, tau and daemons.

At least with grav cannons I'm getting plenty of shots. Heavy bolters, while cheap, just don't do it for me. I'm also keen on twin assault cannons - enter the razorback. I'm looking at running at least 4 with twin assault cannons.

If I could take a 10 man dev squad ( like in the heresy armies), I'd definitely consider heavy bolters. 30 shots would be pretty appealing.

I'm toying with a couple of Stalker tanks. They're much better against ground targets than they used to be and pump out a lot of shots.

Another option is a predator (or two) with only an auto cannon.

The problem I'm finding is that I can't fit in everything in 2000 points (or even close). I suspect the points may creep up till 2250- 2500 as 8th progresses.

Grav Centurions are expensive. Likely you'd get extra stuff if you didn't take them ;)

[Toxichobbit]

I'm not overly fussed with cover since the changes to the rules for it are area terrain or nothing.

 

Regardless, points wise you get just under 3 Heavy Bolters for every Grav cannon (a mere 2pts difference).

 

So if we compare 1 Grav cannon to 3 Heavy bolters, it's about 4 shots vs 9. That makes a difference. So if we consider a Grav Centurion squad with 3 Grav Cannons, you're roughly against 9 Heavy Bolters. That's 12 shots vs 26 (rounding down to help the Grav cannons and there was some loose change in points).

 

Consider that for a moment. You paid points for around 6 kills against Eldar Aspect Warriors in cover at 24" vs about 6 against the same target at 36".

 

The figures go up for the Heavy Bolters if shooting outside cover or more lightly armoured targets.

 

Don't get me wrong, there is a place for Grav cannons in an all comers list but it isn't the wonder one stop weapon it was. One or two in a list is sufficient and more effective use of your points.

 

It's not just cover, but also getting to completely ignore a 4+ save is nice. Heavy bolters are still more than capable of dealing with 4+ saves, but some grav is nice for cover camping units as well as medium/heavy infantry. On the whole though, I couldn't agree more. Heavy bolters are good because they are cheap and can deal with hordes, grav is good for medium/heavy infantry, other stuff is good for anti-vehicle/monsters. I feel like there's a place for lots of different weapons now if you have a variety of opponents (or opponents whose lists have a variety of unit "types") and the stronger lists will be those who don't spam certain weapons.

 

On another note, I'm really liking the autocannon Predator. That gun is a beast for dealing with light vehicles and medium infantry.

[Ishagu]

Looking at it in a vacuum doesn't really paint a full picture.

If those Grav Centurions are within 6" of Guilliman, those Grav Cannons become incredibly powerful, able to deal 14-16 wounds on a t8 vehicle reliably, or to remove an expensive infantry unit in one round of shooting.

[Toxichobbit]

Looking at it in a vacuum doesn't really paint a full picture.

If those Grav Centurions are within 6" of Guilliman, those Grav Cannons become incredibly powerful, able to deal 14-16 wounds on a t8 vehicle reliably, or to remove an expensive infantry unit in one round of shooting.

 

Lascannon/missile launcher Centurions could do that too, except they don't need Guilliman.

 

Again, it all comes down to different weapons are better against different targets. Grav has it's place but it's not a panacea for every problem.

 

Also, "Guilliman buffs X unit" isn't a very strong argument when you're trying to convince people that one unit loadout is the be all, end all for that unit. You've just admitted that you need a 360 point character to support the unit in order to overcome one of it's weaknesses and it still performs poorly against mass light infantry. Sure, it's a good combo, but far from enough to justify the claim that grav is the best.

 

Edit: If you wanted to say that grav is the best loadout for Centurions if you are using Guilliman, then yeh, you might well be right there. It's decent number of shots and fantastic AP get the best use out of his re-rolls.

Edited June 16, 2017 by Toxichobbit

[Ishagu]

Just pointing out. This was tested in a pretty intense game last night. I'll post pics and a batrep soon :-)

[Toxichobbit]

For sure, I think it's definitely a worthy discussion. Grav with Guilliman will be brutal and something you're totally right to point out to people. I'm only countering the claim that Grav Cents are the best overall and reasuring Seahawk that grav (probably) isn't still king. It's more like a Rook now. Looking forward to the bat rep.

[Ishagu]

Oh it's not king like it used to be, but it's very reliable because it's a combination of good AP and volume of shots.

 

Also on Cents there's no BS penalty after movement.

[Schultzhoffen]

@Idaho

 

In many ways I agree but I think we need to relook at that. Where would I mount those extra heavy bolters? A tac squad? A dev squad? It could turn out to be reasonably static.

 

Grav centurions with hurricane bolters pump out a lot of shots with no penalty to moving.

 

The other thing is range. With cc being what it is I suspect most engagements will be close and personal where the hurricane bolters will shine. I don't believe marines should be static and trying to engage at range. We need to get closer.

 

I think that's where grav cents are better than a devastator squad.

 

Could heavy bolters be mounted on land speeders? That may be a better bet than on troops.

 

However, the cool thing is that there are options. Nobody in their right minds would have been arguing for heavy bolters over grav cannons in 7th.

That can only be a good thing.