8th Edition Ultramarine Tactica and Unit discussion.

[Brother Captain Ed]

This is exactly why people don't like forge world models. They're clearly better than the GW version with unavailable and superior options. And then when the rule clearly designed to prevent you from just running all the FW choices in lieu if basic ones is poorly written, the same people who insist that FW is perfectly balanced and the rest of us need to get over our prejudice then unironically say "Take the cheapest basic unit available to run your relic of ridiculous dakka!"

 

People want to play their expensive models. Got it. I would respect that argument a lot more than trying to convince me how totally balanced forge world is.

[Bmseifer]

I'm sorry. But this is a tactica thread. There will be discussions on how to make an effective force and what units will be judged on offensive output and point for point efficency. I wasn't under the impression that someone here was arguing that FW units were equal to GW's. They should be better and more elite in my opinion but the relic rule is pretty easy to circumvent now, I agree, especially with cheap units and the new detachments which doesn't limit us with the number of units of that battlefield role we can take.

 

What I do agree on is that it shouldn't be pay to win. Regardess, i would probably run an all FW still because I like the aesthetics more

[Ishagu]

With the FW rules now being so cheap, I don't see a big barrier for players?

 

The Sicaran does seem a bit expensive, but it's such a fast unit. I'll try it and the Deredeo in a few games over the next week or so.

[Seahawk]

So my predator autocannon aced a helbrute in my last nights game in a single volley. Holy crap that's an insane gun now.

[Prot]

Ishagu we have this discussion so often. I repeat that you have to realize for me to get a piece shipped here to Canada in my case, it's a brutal conversion rate. The tariffs on bringing that stuff across the border are just brutal. This is why I always wished the GW stores could carry or even receive it on our behalf.

 

The models are great, so are many of the rules, and I certainly don't hold it against anyone for wanting to use them. I own a raptor and a Sicaran. I've been afraid to paint them because of their cost... I just wild card them for all my armies. ;)

 

Strategically they certainly fit the conversation.

 

I stiff can't get past that crazy Leviathan Dread they posted way back. A real titan killer.

[Guiltysparc]

I'm glad we are talking sicarans and assassins! I had wanted a sicaran for my heresy army but I'm thinking it might fit in better with my new primaris army.

 

I'm also liking the assassins...my eyes about popped out of my head when I saw thier rules in the leaks. The eversore speaks to my world eaters heart but I was leaning towards vindicare or cullexus. The 2+ hit and wound with no invulnerable saves allowed from the exitus rifle is just nasty. What about the eversore has you leaning that way? The 3d6 charge is certainly awesome!

[Ishagu]

I think the Eversor could be used to disrupt enemy Snipers or counter charge a unit approaching your lines?

 

He can basically appear and Charge a unit :-)

[Ishagu]

Ishagu we have this discussion so often. I repeat that you have to realize for me to get a piece shipped here to Canada in my case, it's a brutal conversion rate. The tariffs on bringing that stuff across the border are just brutal. This is why I always wished the GW stores could carry or even receive it on our behalf.

 

The models are great, so are many of the rules, and I certainly don't hold it against anyone for wanting to use them. I own a raptor and a Sicaran. I've been afraid to paint them because of their cost... I just wild card them for all my armies. ;)

 

Strategically they certainly fit the conversation.

 

I stiff can't get past that crazy Leviathan Dread they posted way back. A real titan killer.

I do keep forgetting about the costly conversion when getting these kits to Canada or Australia :-/

For most Europeans it was the books that caused the most grief.

 

At least you own a Sicaran! Paint it up, Prot!

[Seahawk]

Yea, the markup on FW stuff is insane, even here in the US. Hence why many circles have turned to recasters to get what they want, with superior quality to FW, at 1/3 the price. That's what's stopping FW from ever being "legitimized" here and everywhere but the UK basically. 

[Prot]

 

Ishagu we have this discussion so often. I repeat that you have to realize for me to get a piece shipped here to Canada in my case, it's a brutal conversion rate. The tariffs on bringing that stuff across the border are just brutal. This is why I always wished the GW stores could carry or even receive it on our behalf.

The models are great, so are many of the rules, and I certainly don't hold it against anyone for wanting to use them. I own a raptor and a Sicaran. I've been afraid to paint them because of their cost... I just wild card them for all my armies. ;)

Strategically they certainly fit the conversation.

I stiff can't get past that crazy Leviathan Dread they posted way back. A real titan killer.

I do keep forgetting about the costly conversion when getting these kits to Canada or Australia :-/

For most Europeans it was the books that caused the most grief.

At least you own a Sicaran! Paint it up, Prot!

Thanks but right now it's m addicted to Primaris!

 

I got the Dark Millenium book as well cause I'm a sucker for Ultra fiction. But we'll see!

[LordDrakon]

I really want to fit in a FALCHION SUPER HEAVY TANK DESTROYER into my mech ultras, maybe drop 3 razorbacks and all the tactical marines.......

[Ishagu]

Falchion is immense, truly.

 

By the way, has anyone accumulated any experience with the Primaris?

How are they in an actual game?

 

So far people seem underwhelmed with the Intercessors, but I expect the Hellblasters would ultimately be good once they get their transport?

[Guiltysparc]

i played a proxy game of the box contents.  Hellblasters do the emperor's work.  Getting that rapid fire overcharge plasma at 15" is no joke.

[Prot]

i played a proxy game of the box contents.  Hellblasters do the emperor's work.  Getting that rapid fire overcharge plasma at 15" is no joke.

 

I guess that's a 'good' thing, but you do realize your 2 wound model dies on a to hit of one... if no re-roll (Captain/Lt.) is around.

 

To me that's pretty harsh. I'd rather lose a tactical marine for that level of points.

 

Still I will be trying them this week.... wish me luck. May Guilliman banish all 1's from my shooting dice! (actually I won't be using Guilliman though.)

[Guiltysparc]

 

i played a proxy game of the box contents.  Hellblasters do the emperor's work.  Getting that rapid fire overcharge plasma at 15" is no joke.

 

I guess that's a 'good' thing, but you do realize your 2 wound model dies on a to hit of one... if no re-roll (Captain/Lt.) is around.

 

To me that's pretty harsh. I'd rather lose a tactical marine for that level of points.

 

Still I will be trying them this week.... wish me luck. May Guilliman banish all 1's from my shooting dice! (actually I won't be using Guilliman though.)

 

 

Well...yes, lol, I do realize that since its a core mechanic of the unit.  With the current primaris range, you are going to give them the character buffs to mitigate the overcharge risk.  More than that though, you want that captain there to counter charge.  Being only 5 models, its easy to get them in a terrain feature for the 2+ base save against shooting, so you really have to protect against the charge.  

[LordDrakon]

Ive run "pure" Primaris list and it was very good, deathball with Guilliman for reroll hits and wounds and god damn do rend 1 bolters do work with reroll wounds.

[Joukernaut]

I've played a 100 powerlevel 100 game with guilliman (first try out since I nearly finished him before eighth hit the shelves), some tacs, some termies and a landraider crusader vs an ork horde on foot.

I bunkered up to get most units withun 6 of Guilliman.

Oh my what a badass Guilliman is.

The rerolls on the crusader and termie stormbolters is absolutely brutal.

The sporadic unit that managed to get into combat got their asses handed to them by Guilliman. I ended up gunning down an entire ork army and only loosing a couple termies and some tacs.

I'm definately not bringing Guilliman ever again to any type of small friendly.

Working on a primaris cap and lieutenant to provide some buffs to a Guillimanless ultra army atm.

[Ishagu]

Guilliman is fantastic. Here are a few pics from my first game with him. I was able to almost table my opponent by turn 3, even though he was able to make turn 1 charges.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Prot]

What great looking armies.

 

What will be interesting is when your opponent can field Mortarion to your Guilliman. :)

 

It's funny how people are so liking the re-rolls. I don't know how many are new to Ultra, but you could do this quite effectively previous to Guilliman. Tactical Objectives were pretty darn strong. While not everything was twin linked. it did work table wide.

 

I'm still trying not to use Guilliman. I just think he's so good you could throw a pile of grots with helmets in with him and they'd look like Astartes!

 

Ishagu; both armies do look amazing.

[Ishagu]

What great looking armies.

 

What will be interesting is when your opponent can field Mortarion to your Guilliman. 

 

It's funny how people are so liking the re-rolls. I don't know how many are new to Ultra, but you could do this quite effectively previous to Guilliman. Tactical Objectives were pretty darn strong. While not everything was twin linked. it did work table wide.

 

I'm still trying not to use Guilliman. I just think he's so good you could throw a pile of grots with helmets in with him and they'd look like Astartes!

 

Ishagu; both armies do look amazing.

 

 

Thanks. I really enjoyed the game to be honest. I thought I was going to get tabled on turn one after some significant casualties!

Belakor is incredible. He was able to reduce the Landraider to 5 wounds after charging it on turn 1, having cast Warp Time on himself.

 

The Chaos psychic powers are, imo, very strong.

 

As for the units in my army, the Stalker performed very well - would vouch for this unit in any game. The Techmarine is handy... although I forgot to use his repair in 2 turns lol

 

 

----

 

 

Going back to tactica, I've had a look through the FW index in more details.

 

I feel I need to comment on the Deimos Vindicator Laser Destroyer. Here's the datasheet:

The model is only 185 points when equipped with the main weapon AND a storm bolter. I think it's very powerful for that cost.

 

 

To me the biggest downside is only being able to target a single unit, as the main gun is only a single weapon.

Also the range is shorter, so on turn one you'll typically only get two shots until you get into the most effective range... 

Edited June 20, 2017 by Ishagu

[the jeske]

Falchion is immense, truly.

 

By the way, has anyone accumulated any experience with the Primaris?

How are they in an actual game?

 

So far people seem underwhelmed with the Intercessors, but I expect the Hellblasters would ultimately be good once they get their transport?

too slow, suffer a lot from the number of multi wound doing weapons run to deal with terminators and "MC", struggle even more then normal marines when facing horde armies, have huge problems with melee, you more or less want an Lt for every squad. if the jumpers costed a bit less or if they had 2 shots more per dude, maybe trying to deal with horde through shoting in smaller point games[1500and lower point  range] be more of an option.

the hellblasters are a good primaris unit, but because the rest of the army doesn't realy give present other "kill me first" targets they die fast and then the army falls apart. that is if someone plays a pure primaris army . as an "ally" the dakka flyers are ok in a IG list or run alongside IG lists, and the hellblasters can be run in GK or BA list in case someone does not want to run normal marine rifleman.

Edited June 20, 2017 by the jeske

[Guiltysparc]

Whats everyone's thoughts on cataphractii terminators and captain?  I have mine left over from the clath box that never got used in my 30k world eaters army.  Would be an easy thing to add to my starter box primaris force.

[Ishagu]

I'm a fan of Cataphractii.

The Combi Bolters are good shooting, and they have good survivability.

 

If you're planning on running Claws, or the basic Combi-Bolter and Fist they are better than the other variants by virtue of their good invul.

[Guiltysparc]

I need to take another look at the calth sprues to see which options i have...i am semi inclined to make them assaulty, heavy flamer, combi bolter/chainfist sargent and double claws on the other 3.  Kind of sucks though that the heavy flamer range is less than the deep strike requirement...might be better to get a 4th double claw?

[Prot]

I don't know about the terminators in 8th. Yea they are survivable, but I'm finding the Primaris are good enough at chaff removal.

 

I think for me at least, the terminators are taking the place of something I need to truly get rid of hard targets at range (let's face it, this isn't a great CC army).