8th Ed BA Tactica.

[TheHarrower]

There is a lot of weirdness with rerolls and modifiers. For example, Plasma Cannon moves, fires at a flyer. Total is -2 to hit. I've seen people argue that the Plasma gets hot and removes the model on a roll of 1-3. Same thing with Necrons and Tesla. If you get a +1 to hit, you get more hits when rolling a 5+. I don't think that's right. I think weapon abilities should key off of the natural roll of the die. Not modifiers. Definitely a day 1 FAQ question. 

[durdle-durdle]

Thanks for the report though. Did the SG use the new deep strike thing? Did they get any work?

Yes. I was able to get them to come within 9"of a tank and 12" of a scion squad. The little bit of luck was that the angelus bolters killed the whole scion squad, and then they made their charge against the tank (where they proceeded to be mesmerized by the paint job and did nothing. We called it after that. They were surrounded by hot shot volley guns, and 2 leman russes. All I had left at that point was a scout squad and a half. All I had killed was the 1 scion squad, 1 psyker, and a few random guys. Most his tanks were down to half wounds (because I had wanted to try and get them into a lower bracket and move to another tank to put it into a lower bracket too and neuter most of his force so I could run around basically free while I mopped him up. Long story short, it's not a great plan.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

One thing I've seen lately (in a couple bat reps at least) is taking Scouts over Tactical Squads. The ability to put mortal wounds on characters, and ignore the bubble wrap makes them good choices. The second being that they are cheap, and allows for more points to go into Elites and Heavy options. 

While I love scouts, I just feel dirty not taking a couple of tactical squads. If I play more competitively, I may switch to all scout squads for troops, but until then, its a good option to look at tactically.

[Silverson]

One thing I've seen lately (in a couple bat reps at least) is taking Scouts over Tactical Squads. The ability to put mortal wounds on characters, and ignore the bubble wrap makes them good choices. The second being that they are cheap, and allows for more points to go into Elites and Heavy options. 

 

While I love scouts, I just feel dirty not taking a couple of tactical squads. If I play more competitively, I may switch to all scout squads for troops, but until then, its a good option to look at tactically.

 

I'm currently planning on skipping troops all together by running the vanguard (or similar) detachment with the only difference being command points, compared to what yo can get from the points you save i'm finding it not even close when i'm building my lists, at lest til our codex comes out.

[Charlo]

Scouts are a very effective meta choice. Twenty snipers will consistently put hurt on those important buff characters all game long. Especially the squishier races (lol Ethereals, guard and Eldar commanders, smaller orks etc).

[Bartali]

One thing I've seen lately (in a couple bat reps at least) is taking Scouts over Tactical Squads. The ability to put mortal wounds on characters, and ignore the bubble wrap makes them good choices. The second being that they are cheap, and allows for more points to go into Elites and Heavy options. 

 

While I love scouts, I just feel dirty not taking a couple of tactical squads. If I play more competitively, I may switch to all scout squads for troops, but until then, its a good option to look at tactically.

 

There's absolutely no need to take Troops if you don't want too. Plenty of detachments have a zero requirement for troops.

[Frater Cornelius]

Seems to be yet another edition where you either want to skip Troops or take Scouts over Tacs :(

[Dont-Be-Haten]

The brigade detachment is rather good though.

[Bartali]

Seems to be yet another edition where you either want to skip Troops or take Scouts over Tacs

 

I don't think Tacs are horrendous this edition - you can double tap bolters before charging, Combi weapons are much improved giving you two specials in a 5 man, can split fire etc etc

 

They're probably better than ASM now for MSU Razors, they can take double melta for a start. I'd still prefer to take DC over them though

[Jolemai]

Worth noting that a Whirlwind only has one ammo type now - you either chose the vengeance or the castellan missile launcher when you put your army together and that's that for the battle.

 

Would you rather have:

• Vengeance: 72", STR 6, AP 0, D 1, Heavy 2D6
• Castellan: 72", STR 7, AP -1, D2, Heavy 2D3

[Charlo]

Castellan, personally. Great for hitting anything a little tougher than your average T3 trooper and an average of 4 hits means a good 8 wounds on something.

 

An assault cannon razorback gives you the same dakka as a vengeance without the randomness. 

[CaptainHelion]

I was thinking Vengeance, because 2d6 is great, and honestly, S7 and S6 are near enough as to be the same in most of the cases I'd see a Whirlwind for, but then again, AP-1 and 2 Damage is pretty huge. Probably Castellan 80% of the time.

[Spagunk]

I keep hearing that strength 7 is universally more useful than strength 6. Probably why people are opting for that round instead of one with a larger wound hit spread.

[Jolemai]

Really? So why do people pan the Kheres for only being one point of strength over a regular assault cannon?

 

The other thing I'm having trouble escaping from is the notion that volume of fire is better than a single high strength shot/attack. So given what I'd be using the Whirlwind against (Troops, T3/4) I'd be more than tempted to go for the vengeance. Less shots being double damage don't interest me right now. I guess I need to get with the program?

[Charlo]

Multi-damage also works really well against anything 1W but also had FNP, as they have to pass 2 rolls to survive.

 

I think fewer, higher S, better AP shots with multiple damage let you threaten a much wider range of targets.

[CaptainHelion]

Okay, so I attempted to do some mathhammer for this and boy did it get unwieldy fast.

http://i.imgur.com/ou3oj1N.png?1

 

First take aways are that Vengeance is clear and away the better choice if you're not targeting multi-wound models. If you are, then Castellan edges out Vengeance by fractions, except against 2+ saves. a reasonable amount. As expected, Castellan beats out Vengeance particularly handily against t7.

 

Edit: Messed up my data a touch. Have since updated it.

Edited June 12, 2017 by CaptainHelion

[Jolemai]

Come now, there's no unwieldy anymore. Merely a minus 1 to completing the task!

[Are Verlo]

We have discussed the roles of DC vs VV a few pages back. I am considering using DC with JP, chainsword and bolters as a pure anti-horde unit. Depending on the points they might get an extra power weapon or two in the unit. If I recall correctly there are few (none) units that can combine JP and bolters? Maybe company vets can, but those are better used to deliver plasma or melta.

 

Depending on the opponent they might start on the board or they might use JPA. Its not halfbad to land in some cover and let the bolters rip into some soft target. Next turn you can move upto 12", rapidfire and hopefully charge something.

[CaptainHelion]

Have updated my post with more accurate info. Had originally put down the average hits for the Castellan as 3, not 4. Also, my analysis doesn't account for Rolling To Hit because I forgot at first and now I can't be bothered adding an additional column right now.

[Shaezus]

The Vengeance edges it for me; plasma cannons on the Stormravens cover S7 and multi-wound in my list, but there is precious little available - and for a mere 124 pts considering the T and amount of wounds it has - which can thin out buffers and blobs so well. Potentially at least, if we make average rolls.

Feck it, I like 'em so much I'm taking two of them.

The AC Pred is more consistent in output perhaps, but with its range you'll most likely have to move on the first turn and on subsequent turns too, so that's -1 to hit to that AC. So the big advantage for the Whirlwind is being able to hit anything, anywhere, from turn 1. Whilst hiding out of sight and out of reach like a true BA player should, aye? :p

[Dont-Be-Haten]

Really? So why do people pan the Kheres for only being one point of strength over a regular assault cannon?

 

The other thing I'm having trouble escaping from is the notion that volume of fire is better than a single high strength shot/attack. So given what I'd be using the Whirlwind against (Troops, T3/4) I'd be more than tempted to go for the vengeance. Less shots being double damage don't interest me right now. I guess I need to get with the program?

I think it has to do with now that anything wounds anything you have more chances to wound with weight of fire. I feel it is the same concept of the Scatter Laser vs. Shuriken Cannon debate, for xenos players.

 

Both ammo types wound T3 on 2s and T4-5 on 3s. Personally, if you are shooting against Horde, the weight of fire is more important than the extra damage with less shots. If you're shooting at MCs//Tanks you're wounding on 5+ with both (unless its a dreadnought) In which case S7 vs T7 and S7 vs Toughness 12-13 are the only times it is favorable to S6. So I would really take a look at the higher weight of fire versus the damage output; unless I'm going to be facing hordes of 2+ wounds, and even then, I think I would still look at 2D6 at 72" away versus 2D3 shots. 

 

Edit* Or what Charlo said with the feel no pain rolls; however I'd still take weight of fire in this instance because of how the numbers add up.

Edited June 12, 2017 by Dont-Be-Haten

[Jolemai]

Thread about Scout Bikes. Very interesting if accurate!

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/334681-8th-ed-scout-bikers/?p=4783812&do=findComment&comment=4783812

[Charlo]

Rules check out.... Fun stuff....!

 

They come so stocked with gear... Combat Knife, Pistol & Shotgun?!

 

Normal marine bikers only get a pistol or chainsword...

 

That said, with the new rules - if ever running a larger bikers squad and you've run out of special weapon slots - remember to exchange the bolt pistol to a chainsword for an extra attack in combat!

[Xenith]

Tasty. Love me some scout bikes and they just got better. Although the awesome grenade launcher seems to have taken a panning, they could have left it as rapid fire.

 

Why would anyone ever take D6 S3 frag grenade shots over 4 S4 bolt rounds at 12".

 

The bolters are even more likely to put wounds on basic infantry than the krak grenade.

[Spagunk]

Thread about Scout Bikes. Very interesting if accurate!

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/334681-8th-ed-scout-bikers/?p=4783812&do=findComment&comment=4783812

 

This would lend to some interesting conversion opportunities. Thinking something like Mad Max where you have special holsters for items.