8th Ed BA Tactica.

[Nemisor]

Tech marines and landraiders. You can thank me later

[Crimson Ghost IX]

Tech marines and landraiders. You can thank me later

Give him a jump pack if you are rolling out =)

[Brother_Angelus]

 

Tech marines and landraiders. You can thank me later

Give him a jump pack if you are rolling out =)

 

Yeah, or a bike. He can't repair while embarked and you want to keep pace.

Edited June 18, 2017 by Brother_Angelus

[Shaezus]

 

 

rolling a 3 with an overcharged plasma gun with a -1/2 modifier kills you...

Then don't.

You have the option not to overcharge.

sometimes you *need* that 2D and makes it even more of a risk.

 

CP re-rolls for things just like this :)

[Are Verlo]

I was brainstorming a list where I could use both my IG (they will always be IG) and BA. The objective was to have efficient use of abilites that trigger off keywords.

Then the following "allied contigent of BA" made its way onto the sheet:

Storm Raven (BA)

Random CC dread (BA)

6 JP inf (BA): here I considered 1 sang ancient as warlord and 5 SG.

Note: for this to work the SG ancient will have to be warlord or the dread has to be a liby dread as warlord.

 

When the JP inf disembark they cover a lot of ground. 12" move, 3" disembark and charge.

 

My IG lack any real cc units (I have no bullgryns and no rough riders) so the BA contigent above can do well vs elite units. The plan is never to charge headlong into a resh full enemy combat unit. I can pick my targets with the fantastic mobility and near the banner they fight to the death. As an alternate deployment mode the SG ancient and SG can start in strategic reserves.

 

 

Anyone got any "self-sufficient" BA contigent ideas?

[Morticon]

It may be early to be speaking in absolutes, but from what ive been seeing, and what ive been playing around with for the last two weeks I believe that if we want to play competitive BA, there is only really one reason to do so, and that is to maximise on our CC potential. 

There's very little else we can do well given our points limitations and special units.  The issue (as we have pointed out in other places) is that it means we need to ramp up costs for characters to do this.

 

 

Id eschew DC for VanVets (personally) - definitely if you're doing jumpers, arguably if youre doing rhinos.

At 42 points for plasma SangGuard (44 with angelus bolters <_< ) you're looking at 210 points for 5.  Yes, its 10, 2+ save wounds, but with the amount of multidamage weapons- im not convinced they're worth it, even with character buffs. 

For a little more you can get 10 vanvets with a bunch of shields to do more.  

So, to work hand in hand, Corbs or a Priest is a definitive.

 

Then a rerolling combat character- so, either 143 for Astorath (who synergises nicely with mass of doom, if youre doing multi-assaults) or then Dante, who.... despite being over-priced and the only chapter master without an additional special rule <_<....allows you to reroll everything not just combat. He also has nice 


Like it or not, BA's "schtick" is now cc.  We can do shooty like the rest of the SM armies, but not as well as them.  And sad to say it, but our Dreads are lackluster too.  The Libby may have some decent tactical potential given the character status, but otherwise, we're better off with an Iron Clad for fighting and Ven Dreads for shooting.  

[Crimson Ghost IX]

I was brainstorming a list where I could use both my IG (they will always be IG) and BA. The objective was to have efficient use of abilites that trigger off keywords.

Then the following "allied contigent of BA" made its way onto the sheet:

Storm Raven (BA)

Random CC dread (BA)

6 JP inf (BA): here I considered 1 sang ancient as warlord and 5 SG.

Note: for this to work the SG ancient will have to be warlord or the dread has to be a liby dread as warlord.

 

When the JP inf disembark they cover a lot of ground. 12" move, 3" disembark and charge.

 

My IG lack any real cc units (I have no bullgryns and no rough riders) so the BA contigent above can do well vs elite units. The plan is never to charge headlong into a resh full enemy combat unit. I can pick my targets with the fantastic mobility and near the banner they fight to the death. As an alternate deployment mode the SG ancient and SG can start in strategic reserves.

 

 

Anyone got any "self-sufficient" BA contigent ideas?

Lemartes and a DC unit disembarking with a Libby Dread from a stormraven doesn't suck at all.

Been looking at it alot this weekend but haven't tried it yet.

 

I am looking at my guard army to support my BA forces with long range fire myself eventually if we don't get our melta guns back I am definately doing it but like it for board control with cheap units.

I think the armies go well together for certain. =)

[Are Verlo]

The angelicus bolter isn´t all that bad. When compared to plasma pistols (normal fire mode) it compares well when fired at a wide range of infantry. Overcharged plasma pistol is a different comparison since it reaches the "magic S8" and wounds. With the ability to fire freely at different targets and charge whatever unit in range and sight, the guard can often find a good target for their bolters. Hordes of orks, gaunts and conscrips are all dangerous in this edition, and these are the types of targets the anglicus kills better than plasma pistols.

 

When we discuss golden glowing auras I find it usefull that the SG get rerolls near the warlord. You can have this reroll AND Lemartes/chappy and Dante can provide their rerolls near your other units. This is after all a whinefree zone so I´m going all in finding the positives ;-P

 

If this simple illustration can be a battleline (from left to right)

 

"Choppy JP unit - dante/chappy/Lemartes- VVs or DC - SG ancient- SG" 

Now you have spread your rerolls and buffs out. If needed we can cluster up as well, but the point remains the same, as long as the SG ancient is the warlord we have rerolls for both the SG, SG ancient and all units in range of Dante/chappy/Lemartes and we have reroll 1´s to wound with whoever is within 6" of the SG ancient. :-D

Edited June 18, 2017 by Are Verlo

[Silverson]

The angelicus bolter isn´t all that bad. When compared to plasma pistols (normal fire mode) it compares well when fired at a wide range of infantry. Overcharged plasma pistol is a different comparison since it reaches the "magic S8" and wounds. With the ability to fire freely at different targets and charge whatever unit in range and sight, the guard can often find a good target for their bolters. Hordes of orks, gaunts and conscrips are all dangerous in this edition, and these are the types of targets the anglicus kills better than plasma pistols.

 

When we discuss golden glowing auras I find it usefull that the SG get rerolls near the warlord. You can have this reroll AND Lemartes/chappy and Dante can provide their rerolls near your other units. This is after all a whinefree zone so I´m going all in finding the positives ;-P

 

If this simple illustration can be a battleline (from left to right)

 

"Choppy JP unit - dante/chappy/Lemartes- VVs or DC - SG ancient- SG" 

Now you have spread your rerolls and buffs out. If needed we can cluster up as well, but the point remains the same, as long as the SG ancient is the warlord we have rerolls for both the SG, SG ancient and all units in range of Dante/chappy/Lemartes and we have reroll 1´s to wound with whoever is within 6" of the SG ancient. :-D

 

I actually think the angelus boltgun is 80% of the problem sanguinary guard have at the moment, for a premium price of nearly two melta bombs you get a weapon that is most comparable to intercessor bolt rifle, same strength, ap and damage and both are 2 shots at at 12, the bolt rifle is rapid fire 1 and 30 range so a little better and a lot better outside of 12", and doesn't cost anything.

 

on a squad of 5 sg coming in around 250 points you take off 9 melta bombs from the price of them and the unit is looking a lot more comparable to vanguard vets and death company as a realy good unit.

 

also anyone know if we can have to many characters in 2000 points? im playing a bunch of games over the next 2 days and i have a list that has 5-6 characters in (and all the big ones apart from dante) and feel its a little character heavy.

Edited June 18, 2017 by Silverson

[Crimson Ghost IX]

It may be early to be speaking in absolutes, but from what ive been seeing, and what ive been playing around with for the last two weeks I believe that if we want to play competitive BA, there is only really one reason to do so, and that is to maximise on our CC potential. 

There's very little else we can do well given our points limitations and special units.  The issue (as we have pointed out in other places) is that it means we need to ramp up costs for characters to do this.

 

 

Id eschew DC for VanVets (personally) - definitely if you're doing jumpers, arguably if youre doing rhinos.

 

At 42 points for plasma SangGuard (44 with angelus bolters ) you're looking at 210 points for 5.  Yes, its 10, 2+ save wounds, but with the amount of multidamage weapons- im not convinced they're worth it, even with character buffs. 

 

For a little more you can get 10 vanvets with a bunch of shields to do more.  

 

So, to work hand in hand, Corbs or a Priest is a definitive.

 

Then a rerolling combat character- so, either 143 for Astorath (who synergises nicely with mass of doom, if youre doing multi-assaults) or then Dante, who.... despite being over-priced and the only chapter master without an additional special rule ....allows you to reroll everything not just combat. He also has nice 

 

 

Like it or not, BA's "schtick" is now cc.  We can do shooty like the rest of the SM armies, but not as well as them.  And sad to say it, but our Dreads are lackluster too.  The Libby may have some decent tactical potential given the character status, but otherwise, we're better off with an Iron Clad for fighting and Ven Dreads for shooting.  

I agree Morticon. VV are very appealing. I have been trying hard to get along without them to this point but they are just GOOD.

 

I can only see using SG in large games as of right now. I haven't had the stomach for them as we have been at 1000pts thru this weekend in my group. I have yet to really give them a good list consideration. They are somewhat A- on paper tho for sure. I will be taking that banner Ancient at some point.

 

I have learned the hard way that although it can work on occasion, building towards a jump alpha strike army is shadow boxing. Which is good for the game but not so much for our army specifically I feel.

 

Maybe I am just in a bad mood becasue I had a big unit of DC annihilated by an 8 man Khorne Bezerker long roll counter charge today... My long suffering chaos buddy was soooo delighted I couldn't complain much =) Chaos rising is good for the game. Anyhow, whomever gets that charge wins it most likely and he had hot dice. Yet another reason to back off the Alpha strike angle I have drifted towards. Oddly it was not my original intention but it was the list I built for the weekend.

 

I think we need to use our great HTH to be counter charging. Use our drop in jump troops to harrass the weak with relatively weak units also seems best. Bait them in and kill them while hiding in our own metal bawkses with our badasses maybe... Yess.

 

Suppose thats alot of talk to say you have to remove their screen before engaging with your main killers. Our murder units MUST kill theirs or its game over when theirs get first swing. Chesslike.

 

I like Astorath and see where you are going with VV. I think it is a good path forward.

I also like the Sanguinor alot over Dante on paper. Fall back and charge elsewhere is perhaps a sweet path downtown I think.

 

I am thinking that our lack of melta GUNS on assault marines really hurts bad and steers us towards sprinkling in fewer neat BA units via deepstrike and spending points on more traditional forces like razorbacks, land speeders and predators etc instead. It's still kinda fluffy. A shame, but I will live with it. Tanks (T7) are common on the table. As powerful as thunderhammers etc are they can't be relied on to get everything killed at the 1000 points game level thats for sure. I suspect it will be even harder at 2000.

 

I still like DC but feel they need to be transported or following armour to be their best as they are such a HUGE target and likely points heavy themselves. Even with a 4++ from a libby they eat too much damage on the way over. (I suspect storm shields will fair only slightly better).

 

I am still going to take drop troops for certain (as they are awesome) but the General Custer fashion in which I have been trying to use them is not working to a degree of reliability that I feel is viable. It can work but it is not forgiving at all and things WILL go wrong. This may be true for dropping mass forces onto the table generally I feel but still see them as a workable way forward to flank into cover and apply pressure etc.

 

I am coming to think that a land raider or storm raven to protect my forces while they get into position to deploy out is a much better proposition and more likely to be consistantly viable. Corbulo likes to be transported so thats good.

 

I am going to use fewer drop jumpers at larger points levels for certain. Especially because it is difficult to achieve needed antitank firepower (back to Land Raiders and Stormravens again). I still feel jump troops hopping along behind the armour is useable and probably best.

 

Too much hammer, not enough anvil *nod

Edited June 18, 2017 by Crimson Ghost IX

[Are Verlo]

 

 

The angelicus bolter isn´t all that bad. When compared to plasma pistols (normal fire mode) it compares well when fired at a wide range of infantry. Overcharged plasma pistol is a different comparison since it reaches the "magic S8" and wounds. With the ability to fire freely at different targets and charge whatever unit in range and sight, the guard can often find a good target for their bolters. Hordes of orks, gaunts and conscrips are all dangerous in this edition, and these are the types of targets the anglicus kills better than plasma pistols.

 

When we discuss golden glowing auras I find it usefull that the SG get rerolls near the warlord. You can have this reroll AND Lemartes/chappy and Dante can provide their rerolls near your other units. This is after all a whinefree zone so I´m going all in finding the positives ;-P

 

If this simple illustration can be a battleline (from left to right)

 

"Choppy JP unit - dante/chappy/Lemartes- VVs or DC - SG ancient- SG"

Now you have spread your rerolls and buffs out. If needed we can cluster up as well, but the point remains the same, as long as the SG ancient is the warlord we have rerolls for both the SG, SG ancient and all units in range of Dante/chappy/Lemartes and we have reroll 1´s to wound with whoever is within 6" of the SG ancient. :-D

I actually think the angelus boltgun is 80% of the problem sanguinary guard have at the moment, for a premium price of nearly two melta bombs you get a weapon that is most comparable to intercessor bolt rifle, same strength, ap and damage and both are 2 shots at at 12, the bolt rifle is rapid fire 1 and 30 range so a little better and a lot better outside of 12", and doesn't cost anything.

 

on a squad of 5 sg coming in around 250 points you take off 9 melta bombs from the price of them and the unit is looking a lot more comparable to vanguard vets and death company as a realy good unit.

 

also anyone know if we can have to many characters in 2000 points? im playing a bunch of games over the next 2 days and i have a list that has 5-6 characters in (and all the big ones apart from dante) and feel its a little character heavy.

[Are Verlo]

Err, I was going to write more after the quote above, but typing on my phone caused me to feck it up. And the autocorrect making suggestions in norwegian isn't helping

[Morticon]

 

"

I think we need to use our great HTH to be counter charging. Use our drop in jump troops to harrass the weak with relatively weak units also seems best. Bait them in and kill them while hiding in our own metal bawkses with our badasses maybe... Yess."

This is exactly how I'll be playing.  

 

Got myself something I want to try out this weekend.  I really like it.  Will see how it goes. 

[Fidelius Animo]

Does anyone have a brigade level Detachment they're at all happy with?

 

I simply can't find enough points to do everything I'd like and still get those extra 2-3 CPs.

 

Most I've been able to squeeze in is 7

[Crimson Ghost IX]

Does anyone have a brigade level Detachment they're at all happy with?

 

I simply can't find enough points to do everything I'd like and still get those extra 2-3 CPs.

 

Most I've been able to squeeze in is 7

i have not for a brigade. 

 

I am tinkering with dual battalion using IG.

I think we give up too much for it mono blood angels.

 

I also think 5-7 CP is enough.

[Fidelius Animo]

 

 

Does anyone have a brigade level Detachment they're at all happy with?

 

I simply can't find enough points to do everything I'd like and still get those extra 2-3 CPs.

 

Most I've been able to squeeze in is 7

i have not for a brigade.

 

I am tinkering with dual battalion using IG.

I think we give up too much for it mono blood angels.

 

I also think 5-7 CP is enough.

I've only played a few 50PL games so far and maybe it my experience in other systems where rerolls or other aspects of dice manipulation are more common but i generally find myself wanting to spend 2-3 CP a turn just on rerolls let alone more interesting strategems.

 

10 strikes me as minimum (base 3 for battle forged + 7 more)

 

Given how "elite" Blood angels seem to be playing in early 8th been looking at ways to take super cheap troop choices.

 

The problem then is that I don't really like Fast Attack options for BA as much when I'm also trying to squeeze in two Storm Ravens

Edited June 19, 2017 by Fidelius Animo

[JamesI]

I pretty much agree with your assessment, Morticon.  

 

But of course, that's how I like to play my BA anyway.

[ThatOneMarshal]

It's kinda got a proto 5th edition feel with its amalgation of razorspam and a bit of DOA it seems.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

melee specific armies, I feel almost have to have Corbulo.

 

especially against the enormous blobs of Necrons that don't go away. having the entire unit gain +1 attack for each 6 to hit rolled by a model really Piles on damage.

 

personally, I love tactical TDA with a chain fist and pick your choice of ranged weapon load out. having Corbulo drop in with a veteran squad in a drop pod alongside TDA is something to consider.

 

The imperial space marine is a great edition also and his damage output alongside a veteran guard squad is brilliant.

[Thoridon]

Aye, I was going to use lot of JP / Term deep strike and charge, but the more I think about that 9" charge the more I'm thinking...

 

• Foot troops / vehicles to hold the 'line', get stuck in first (and being BA, ready to initiate charges too).
• JP melee units to counter-charge, using 12" move to move from cover to cover and get in position.
• JP special weapon units to jump around blasting tough things at close range (or using DS to drop in behind something).
• Tac Terms deep striking in as a group behind enemy lines to create a sandwich.
• Characters supporting wherever needed.

[Thoridon]

I was posting this in the Primaris thread until I realised it was for showcasing models rather than discussing merits, so I figured here was about the best place.

 

I'm still deciding if I'd want to use any. To help I've put together one of my usual charts, starting with Troops:

 

http://i.imgur.com/y3aa2dR.jpg

 

The Bolt Rifle does add a little more damage than the Boltgun, but only a little more. With the increased cost the Intercessor is quite a bit less points efficient in terms of damage output. Those extra points do buy an extra wound per model too but that only helps against basic single damage weapons - against multiple D weapons I'd rather have 10 single wound models than 5 double wound.

 

The most points troops efficient for damage output (with basic weapons) are oviously Scouts, and if you have the means of ensuring they get up close the Shotgun is a small boost against certain targets, but you trade a fair bit of versatility for that 6" focus. From 7-12" the shogun would be the same damage as a Boltgun.

 

I just don't see why I'd want to use Intercessors. They have no flexibility in weapons so you're paying the cost of an elite body for a basic weapon. To me it's more efficient both damage-wise and in terms of durablity to just run extra Tactical or Scout bodies.

 

-Tacticals give you the Special and Heavy options to help add damage to tough targets if you want that, plus a melee upgrade for the Sergeant.

-Scouts give cheaper troop options effective against hordes, with the more limited weapon upgrades (hello Heavy Bolter) and same Sergeant options. They also give you cheap anti-horde melee options with the swap for a knife.

-Intercessors don't give you those options and are less points efficient.

 

It's the main reason I didn't get the Dark Imperium box, I wouldn't use the 10 Intercessors when I already have enough Tacticals and Scouts to fill troop slots.

 

I'll have a look at Inceptors against other Fast options when I have time later (and then Hellblasters vs other Special units, where I think a Company Vet squad running Plasma with jump packs would still be my favourite).

Edited June 19, 2017 by Thoridon

[Spagunk]

So I agree with you based on the actual data that intercessors are just not there as far as how efficient they are. They die just as quick as other marines and their damage output isn't all that good.

 

HOWEVER, what I do see as a potential is for cover fire. Bear with me on this one. You have 6" additional range versus a boltgun. I would instead use them to cover the advance of your tacticals and jump troops. They are vulnerable to both moral and fire so don't put them in that position. Layer them in to provide extra range to make it harder for enemies to just just back pedal out of boltgun range. Use them similar to sternguard.

 

With that said, I'd rather just take sternguard to be honest. I always like using models I have so ultimately I'll probably still use intercessors but the more cost effective solution is a good sternguard squad.

[Quixus]

Thanks for the analysis. I wonder how Hellblasters and Inceptors compare to those statistics.

[Xenith]

Thing is, at 12" rapid fire, the enemy is 12" from you, meaning a 6" move and 6" charge (likely).

 

With intercessors, the RF is 15", meaning a 6" move in general, followed by 9" charge (unlikely)

 

So they get some protection.

 

Sternguard are a close comparison. 1 better ap but one less wound, 1 pt difference.

[the jeske]

 

HOWEVER, what I do see as a potential is for cover fire. Bear with me on this one. You have 6" additional range versus a boltgun. I would instead use them to cover the advance of your tacticals and jump troops.

Why not just use scouts with snipers for that? More guns, the character snipe option . plus for objectives they are +5 models more then the chad marines. Without a huge increase of point cost.