8th Ed BA Tactica.

[Calistarius]

For those of you that have played a few test games, do you prefer quantity or quality of shots in the shooting phase? Is the strength/AP modifiers worth more than sheer volume?

[Silverson]

so i have just heard of imo the worst rule in the game. im not sure of the best way to explain it but ill have a go here.

 

the bs of a marine is 3+ so a devistator with a heavy bolter moves in the movement phase, 

he is stood next to Dante (or another chapter master)

he shoots and gets a 2,3,4 

he can then reroll the 2 as per normal, but he can not reroll the 3 and the 4 hits.

 

This is because the modifiers happen after the reroll, so before the modifier of moving happens a 3 would hit so the marine does not get the re roll, then the modifier happens and it misees. crazy rule 

[Calistarius]

so i have just heard of imo the worst rule in the game. im not sure of the best way to explain it but ill have a go here.

 

the bs of a marine is 3+ so a devistator with a heavy bolter moves in the movement phase, 

he is stood next to Dante (or another chapter master)

he shoots and gets a 2,3,4 

he can then reroll the 2 as per normal, but he can not reroll the 3 and the 4 hits.

 

This is because the modifiers happen after the reroll, so before the modifier of moving happens a 3 would hit so the marine does not get the re roll, then the modifier happens and it misees. crazy rule

 

Where did you hear/read this? I ask because a reroll shouldn't be dependent on modifiers unless it specifically states in the reroll rules. A miss is a miss.

[Silverson]

i first heard about it on a battle report from front line gaming that im watching now between ultramarines and tyranids. he explained it( way better than i did) and then pointed out the rule entry. i went to check for myself as it sounds so silly and there it was.

 

the rule is on the far top left on the same page as the psychic phase and shooting phase.

 

if you have a different interpretation please come forward with it as id like to hear it.

[Fidelius Animo]

 

so i have just heard of imo the worst rule in the game. im not sure of the best way to explain it but ill have a go here.

 

the bs of a marine is 3+ so a devistator with a heavy bolter moves in the movement phase,

he is stood next to Dante (or another chapter master)

he shoots and gets a 2,3,4

he can then reroll the 2 as per normal, but he can not reroll the 3 and the 4 hits.

 

This is because the modifiers happen after the reroll, so before the modifier of moving happens a 3 would hit so the marine does not get the re roll, then the modifier happens and it misees. crazy rule

 

Where did you hear/read this? I ask because a reroll shouldn't be dependent on modifiers unless it specifically states in the reroll rules. A miss is a miss.

I'm not disagreeing with you.

 

But Does the leaked rule book clearly layout the order of operation?

[Cadmus Tyro]

Not sure if this has been mentioned yet, apologies if I've missed it somewhere in the thread. Is there any milleage in using vanguard veterans with jump packs and dual plasma pistols? By my calculation they come out at the same cost as a company veteran with a jump pack and plasma gun. Same number of shots at short range but able to use them in combat. The other advantage, if you're crazy, you can take ten of them.

 

I would hold them in reserve and drop them in at the opportune moment as the rest of the force reaches the enemy. Hopefully there will be a company ancient nearby, if I loose a guy using supercharged pistols, there's a 50% chance I get to shoot again....

 

What do you think? Worth the points for some close anti vehicle suicide support? Or just a gimmick?

 

Cadmus

[Silverson]

i don t mind people disagreeing with me at all :) i actually wish this wasn't correct. the exact ruling is.

 

some models allow you to re-roll a dice roll. which means you get to roll some or all of the dice again. you can never  re-roll a dice more than once and re-rolls happen before modifiers (if any) are applied.

[submarinesoup]

I plan to use a squad of vanguard veterans with JPs,storm shields and power axes / plasma pistols as an anti - elite and light vehicle wrecking ball.

 

Storm shields = 3+ invuln for 5 points! That cheap durability for VVs is going criminally unnoticed. I have high hopes for them.

[Arkhanist]

RAW, I can see how that interpretation could be made. The reroll rule states that rerolls happen before modifiers. Chapter master standard rule is 'you can re-roll failed hit rolls'. a devastator has a 3+ 

 

e.g. a moving heavy weapon devastator next to a chapter master, a 2 gets a reroll, a 3 wouldn't because it's not a failed hit roll before modifiers (but still subsequently misses due to the -1 modifier), and a 4+ would still hit.

 

That's a definitely rules lawyer stretch though, and I sure as hell won't be applying it that way. FAQ candidate I guess.

[Cleon]

i don t mind people disagreeing with me at all i actually wish this wasn't correct. the exact ruling is.

 

some models allow you to re-roll a dice roll. which means you get to roll some or all of the dice again. you can never  re-roll a dice more than once and re-rolls happen before modifiers (if any) are applied.

 

Now I might be guilty of adding an element of 'wish' into it, but while I see what you are saying, my reading of that (as a natural Brit, like GW writers) is that this is intended to mean:

• A 3+ to hit with a -1 modifier is a 4+ to hit - on the re-roll the -1 still applies, it's not expended on the first roll.
• A 'fail on a 1' specific re-roll is only for 1, you can't re-roll 2s because you have a -1 modifier.

But I agree as written IF your rule is re-roll fails & the roll only fails because of a modifier then you cannot re-roll.

 

It all comes from the unfortunate choice to have modifiers impact the roll rather than the target as the option (assuming a marine with a heavy 3 weapon moving (3+ to hit with a -1 as above)

• Roll to hit 2,3,4
• Re-rolls pre modifiers IF allowing re-rolls on all fails just the 2, if re-rolling 1s, no re-roll.
• Roll 2 up to a 3 for 3,3,4 - three hits
• Apply modifier -1 to 2,2,3 - one hit.

If choice is 'Post' modifier:

• Roll to hit 2,3,4
• Apply modifier -1 to 1,2,3 - one hit.
• Re-rolls post modifiers IF allowing re-rolls on all fails the 1 and 2, if re-rolling 1s, the 1.
• Roll 1 up to a 4, 2 up to a 3,  for 3,4,4 - three hits
• Modifier already applied, 3 hits. OR apply modifier twice (as it applies on all rolls to hit and this is a new roll) for 2 hits.

Tricky.

[Calistarius]

 

i don t mind people disagreeing with me at all :) i actually wish this wasn't correct. the exact ruling is.

 

some models allow you to re-roll a dice roll. which means you get to roll some or all of the dice again. you can never  re-roll a dice more than once and re-rolls happen before modifiers (if any) are applied.

 

 

Now I might be guilty of adding an element of 'wish' into it, but while I see what you are saying, my reading of that (as a natural Brit, like GW writers) is that this is intended to mean:

• A 3+ to hit with a -1 modifier is a 4+ to hit - on the re-roll the -1 still applies, it's not expended on the first roll.
• A 'fail on a 1' specific re-roll is only for 1, you can't re-roll 2s because you have a -1 modifier.

But I agree as written IF your rule is re-roll fails & the roll only fails because of a modifier then you cannot re-roll.

 

It all comes from the unfortunate choice to have modifiers impact the roll rather than the target as the option (assuming a marine with a heavy 3 weapon moving (3+ to hit with a -1 as above)

• Roll to hit 2,3,4
• Re-rolls pre modifiers IF allowing re-rolls on all fails just the 2, if re-rolling 1s, no re-roll.
• Roll 2 up to a 3 for 3,3,4 - three hits
• Apply modifier -1 to 2,2,3 - one hit.

If choice is 'Post' modifier:

• Roll to hit 2,3,4
• Apply modifier -1 to 1,2,3 - one hit.
• Re-rolls post modifiers IF allowing re-rolls on all fails the 1 and 2, if re-rolling 1s, the 1.
• Roll 1 up to a 4, 2 up to a 3,  for 3,4,4 - three hits
• Modifier already applied, 3 hits. OR apply modifier twice (as it applies on all rolls to hit and this is a new roll) for 2 hits.

Tricky.

This is my interpretation, exactly. If you're able to reroll 1s you should not be able to reroll a 2 because of any modifiers. It's insane that English is capable of a multitude of interpretations because of finicky wording.

[Morticon]

For those of you that have played a few test games, do you prefer quantity or quality of shots in the shooting phase? Is the strength/AP modifiers worth more than sheer volume?

When fighting mech, 

i'm finding Damage to be more of a consideration than strength.  

Followed by AP.  

Then Strength.

Then Number of shots.

 

The last two flick around when fighting infantry.  

 

S4-6 have the same damage ratio vs most vehicles. 

 

[Jolemai]

Not a fan of assault cannons this edition then? I do wonder if the stock loadout of Stormravens will change... Also reckon plaserbacks will be less popular for us.

[Fidelius Animo]

Not a fan of assault cannons this edition then? I do wonder if the stock loadout of Stormravens will change... Also reckon plaserbacks will be less popular for us.

I've found Assault cannons to be necessary to deal with bubble wrap.

 

Nids, Necron, orks, and even guard, are all finding out that the best way to deliver your elite units or your characters is to also take as many cheap models as possible.

 

I mean Have you seen the price of 'guants this edition? Or Grots?

 

Though base necrons are still pricey their army is much generally more grunt heavy than Marines

Edited June 10, 2017 by Fidelius Animo

[Fidelius Animo]

Not a fan of assault cannons this edition then? I do wonder if the stock loadout of Stormravens will change... Also reckon plaserbacks will be less popular for us.

As an aside, In mathing out melee attacks, Power swords are generally going to be superior to all other power weapons because generally T5-7 models are also commonly 4+/3+ saves. The huge reduction in save chances is generally superior to every other 4 point option

 

by Thunder hammers are going to be amazing for VV and similar units because they out perform the power fist on basic troopers

 

It's worth noting that Necrons have a love hate relationship with D6 damage rolls made against them.

 

Saw a game where LasCannon Devastator squad got 3 hits and 3 unsaved wounds. player rolled triple 6s for three LasCannon shots but with quantum shielding the Necron Player took 0 damage.

Edited June 10, 2017 by Fidelius Animo

[Frater Cornelius]

Hehehe, assback :D

 

Anyway, DC. A possible explanation why they are about the same cost as Zerkers, yet have less base output could be potential synergy. As far as I am aware, there are very limited ways (if any at all) to buff them, whereas BA have a plenty of buffs like more attacks or a 4++ available to them. Synergy accounts for a lot, so they might've taxed them.

 

If I had a tinfoil hat fetish, I would assume it was to boost sales, but I do not quite believe that.

 

Also, Morty. Chin up, or must I send the Commissar to have him move it up for you ;)

[Morticon]

Not a fan of assault cannons this edition then? I do wonder if the stock loadout of Stormravens will change... Also reckon plaserbacks will be less popular for us.

Its not bad at all!! Especially the twin AC.  Thing is, any moving (which is usually required) means you're looking at half the hits anyway :( 

 

 

[Frater Cornelius]

 

Not a fan of assault cannons this edition then? I do wonder if the stock loadout of Stormravens will change... Also reckon plaserbacks will be less popular for us.

Its not bad at all!! Especially the twin AC.  Thing is, any moving (which is usually required) means you're looking at half the hits anyway  

 

 

 

 

 

Not a fan of assault cannons this edition then? I do wonder if the stock loadout of Stormravens will change... Also reckon plaserbacks will be less popular for us.

Its not bad at all!! Especially the twin AC.  Thing is, any moving (which is usually required) means you're looking at half the hits anyway  

 

 

 

 

Marines get re-rolls handed to them on a silver plate. Take your pick.

[Bartali]

 

Not a fan of assault cannons this edition then? I do wonder if the stock loadout of Stormravens will change... Also reckon plaserbacks will be less popular for us.

Its not bad at all!! Especially the twin AC.  Thing is, any moving (which is usually required) means you're looking at half the hits anyway  

 

 

 

 

Or just take Twin Flamer Razors that auto-hit and can shoot after advancing (and also have a pretty tasty overwatch for when they inevitably get assaulted)

[Morticon]

Also, Morty. Chin up, or must I send the Commissar to have him move it up for you

 

^_^  will get there soon enough.  Just grumples :P 

[Frater Cornelius]

 

 

Also, Morty. Chin up, or must I send the Commissar to have him move it up for you

^_^ will get there soon enough. Just grumples :P

Good man. Wouldn't want you to crumble before 8th even officially released :)

Edited June 10, 2017 by Immersturm

[The Unseen]

Hehehe, assback :D

 

Anyway, DC. A possible explanation why they are about the same cost as Zerkers, yet have less base output could be potential synergy. As far as I am aware, there are very limited ways (if any at all) to buff them, whereas BA have a plenty of buffs like more attacks or a 4++ available to them. Synergy accounts for a lot, so they might've taxed them.

 

 

But that doesn't make any sense?

If that was the case, then the characters providing that synergy should be where that cost is included.

Not in the base unit, which may or may not actually have that synergy producing unit with them.

And it isn't like a small decrease in output either, I'd be fine if they were just slightly worse than their traitor counterparts.

Their much worse.

Zerkers get native str 5, and literally attack twice, plus access to chainaxes, which are disgustingly good for 1 pt, literally power axes with 1 less ap mod for 1/4th the price.

 

The 6+ fnp save is laughable this edition with the problems with it stated above.

 

The only actual advantage the DC have is that jump packs are cheaper than transports, and both units want either a transport or movement buffs.

But again, we pay a fair chunk more per model if we want to take packs and give the unit some power weapons so it actually kills something, because a bunch of str4 attacks isn't going to cut it.

 

And just to clarify, I'm not upset that Zerkers are good, far from it.

Chaos should be scary, their the big bad of the setting, or at least the biggest.

But DC are just really sad right now.

Edited June 10, 2017 by The Unseen

[durdle-durdle]

I think there's 2 main problems here.

 

1.) death co. Don't do anything vastly different from vanguard vets (unless you take a bunch and lemartes). In my mind, they're basically just slightly different vets. (They have a 4th attack on the charge, retain their pisto, and a small extra amount of survivability normallyl vs vets trading their pistol for a 4th attack all the time and the ability to take a storm shield for high ap resistance.)

 

2.). Berserkers were probably overbalanced. Tbf, I'm okay with berserkers being good, they should be. But letting them attack 2x per turn with a better weapon to boot, they should probably cost 25% or more than they do now. Once you take berserkers out of the equation, death co don't look so bad. Still not stellar, but not as underperforming.

[durdle-durdle]

Played another game today. 2k points. I was scraping a little to get a list together that big.

 

Captain with jump pack (fist and grav pistol)

Sanguinary priest with jump pack (sword and bolt pistol)

2 sniper squads

1 tactical squad with melta/combo melta in assback

1 jump vet squad of 4 plasmas

10 man sanguinary guard squad

5 death company in an assback

Tri las pred

Vindicator

Devestators (2 grav cannons 2 lascannons)

 

Vs

 

Yarrick

4x scions with volleyblaster squads

2 primaris psykers

3 wyverns

3 battle cannon russes

A bane blade variant

 

Not writing up a full report. I lost horribly due to whiffing almost every roll. I didn't learn anything about my army, just his.

 

-scions (especially with volley guns) will shred any type of marines, and even do heavy damage to tanks

-the primaris psyker gave the bane blade +1 save, because why not, it was dumb. Only took half its wounds (my rolling didn't help)

-wyverns do a ridiculous amount of shots (4d6 rerolling to wound)

- battle cannons are solid at taking down enemy (my) tanks. Also solid for shooting sanguinary guard.

-I think we either need to focus on rushing forward or hanging back and shooting. I feel like I screwed myself by taking a list that does a little of both. Although, my inability to roll anything other than a 2 was frustrating.

 

Very annoyed. Going to bed.

[Chaplain Gunzhard]

Thanks for the report though. Did the SG use the new deep strike thing? Did they get any work?