Dark Imperium Spoilers/Plot Summary (Read Along)

[b1soul]

I agree with the notion that daemon primarchs are generally more powerful than primarchs or greater daemons.

 

Daemon Angron would smash regular Angron or any pre-Heresy primarch.

 

He also rolls with a bodyguard of Bloodthirsters, who should be individually weaker than him

[HeritorA]

1) Dude, were you on vacation? ^^

2) You already shared your pov on this book for several times. No reason for you to repeat it again after some shared their satisfaction about it.

Yeap, was on vacation - for good or bad I'm back

[Mellow]

I don't like how there are "Daemons" but no "Angels" in the setting. No forces for the good side or the side of order to combat the timeless eternal primordial annihilatior.

[Kelborn]

@Heri: wellcome back ;)

 

@Mellow: maybe in form of the Legion of the Damned?

[Mellow]

Grimdark angels. I can live with that. With some kind of "not quite the Warp but not quite heaven" realm. Covered in a novel somewhere (but only briefly, just enough to get people excited in their pants)

[Augustus]

I agree with the notion that daemon primarchs are generally more powerful than primarchs or greater daemons.

 

Daemon Angron would smash regular Angron or any pre-Heresy primarch.

 

He also rolls with a bodyguard of Bloodthirsters, who should be individually weaker than him

I generally agree.

 

Although there are a few advantages that being of flesh and blood might give them over the demon ones. One off the top of my head is that in my line of thinking is that the demon ones might not be as broadly focused compared to their opposite numbers. They embody one of the 4 aspects or Undivided. They might lose themselves to their own Chaos-ness in a fight.

[b1soul]

Well... Daemon Primarchs are Daemon Princes elevated from the base material of Primarchs

 

The difference is like that between an Astartes and an Astartes Daemon Prince.

 

I think Daemon-hood conveys a massive power boost.

 

Now, Daemon-hood should be distinguished from Chaos corruption. The average CSM may not have a significant advantage over the average SM.

 

Of course, a Chaos Lord brimming with Warp power is another matter... And probably closer to a Daemon Prince

[DogWelder]

Well... Daemon Primarchs are Daemon Princes elevated from the base material of Primarchs

 

The difference is like that between an Astartes and an Astartes Daemon Prince.

 

I think Daemon-hood conveys a massive power boost.

 

Now, Daemon-hood should be distinguished from Chaos corruption. The average CSM may not have a significant advantage over the average SM.

 

Of course, a Chaos Lord brimming with Warp power is another matter... And probably closer to a Daemon Prince

 

To be fair, every special character from the loyalist Astartes has taken killed a demon prince or two. I mean, at this stage it would be a poor excuse for a Chapter champion to not have killed at least one demon Prince in their lives.

 

Cato Sicarius took down Kor Megron, Calgar took down Ann'grath and another Demon Prince in a Space Hulk, Uriel killed Mkar (permanently), I'm sure Lysander has killed one or two...its not that big of a deal.

Edited July 20, 2017 by Caius Tadius

[Kelborn]

Just my two cents:

 

Demon Princes were either normal humans or "normal" Astartes, elevated to the rank of demons. They received a power boost, granted by their respective patron for achieving something important. Although being demons now, they still rely heavily on the favour of said patron. A prince of Khorne still hast to enact massive massacres and the likes to receive more favor / power. If they fail to do so, they could potentially be tossed away, loosing their status and power base.

 

Their might should of course be greater and more impressive than a normal chapter master. Nevertheless, they are still vulnerable and can be defeated permanently, like M'Kar. The relationship between Astartes and demon princes should be reasonable, that means the Astartes should barely be able to defeat a prince, taking a heavy toll or being forced to sacrifice himself in order to do so.

 

Uriel had the one and only item which was bound to M'Kar, enabling him to defeat the vile demon. In Ben Counter's Grey Knights novels, the Grey Knights were barely able to defeat more powerfull and older princes by making use of the demons true name for example.

 

Demon Primarchs are a completely different league though. These are the ultimate champions of Chaos, the perfect amalgamation of human flesh and warp energies. They were meant to be the epitome of the Emperors work. They are completely infused with their patrons might and favor, elevating them to such a level that they are second only to their patrons alone.

 

The only beings which should be able to defeat them, are the loyal Primarchs in the same way like a normal Astartes can defeat a prince: barely.

 

Magnus was fend off two times.

1) By Leman Russ and although I'm a big Vlka fan, who enjoyed Wrath of Magnus, the reason behing this victory is a little bit poor imho. Yes, his axe once belonged to a champion of Khorne but if we follow this path, every weapon of Khorne's followers, which were forged within his domain, could potentially be a great weapon against Tzeentch and his minions. Perfect items for radicle Inquisitors, hm?

2) By Guiliman. The only thing that saved Guiliman were the Sisters of Silence. No questions. RG (although being a Primarch) is not one of the best capable fighters among the loyal ones. IMHO, he should suffer greatly from such an encounter. He further had some serious problems with Skarbrand, confirming my assumption of him being not one of the top loyal combatants like the Khan, the Lion or Russ.

 

Either way, I'm curious to see the next Primarch vs Demon Primarch battle. Haven't read Dark Imperium until now but do RG and Morti have a clash in it?

[b1soul]

To be fair, every special character from the loyalist Astartes has taken killed a demon prince or two. I mean, at this stage it would be a poor excuse for a Chapter champion to not have killed at least one demon Prince in their lives.

Heroes are heroes because they beat the odds. They take on more powerful (not less powerful) foes and somehow emerge victorious...otherwise they'd just be bullies.

 

For example, take the movie Predator. Arnold defeats the Predator at the end.

 

The Predator is a 7'6" super-strong alien hunter with a plasma cannon. Arnold, in comparison, is much weaker. However, as the hero, he manages to pull off an unlikely victory by the skin of his teeth.

[Marshal Loss]

When a setting has been around for decades, it's only natural that certain obstructions get introduced repeatedly. See Avatars, as perhaps the most infamous example. That doesn't make them (or Daemon Princes) any less significant, just because they're one of the first things authors turn to as a plot device when writing a story. And if they were not significant in the first place, they would not be worth adding in as 'bosses'.

[Loesh]

I'd hesitate to label anything or anyone in the setting heroic, even by that definition. 

[DogWelder]

I'd hesitate to label anything or anyone in the setting heroic, even by that definition. 

 

I mean saving entire star systems from being ritually slaughtered down to the last man, woman and child to advance the agenda of a literal demonic entity seems very heroic to me...

[HeritorA]

 

I'd hesitate to label anything or anyone in the setting heroic, even by that definition. 

 

I mean saving entire star systems from being ritually slaughtered down to the last man, woman and child to advance the agenda of a literal demonic entity seems very heroic to me...

 

Nice one, lol

 

Kelborn - thank you

[Loesh]

 

I'd hesitate to label anything or anyone in the setting heroic, even by that definition. 

 

I mean saving entire star systems from being ritually slaughtered down to the last man, woman and child to advance the agenda of a literal demonic entity seems very heroic to me...

 

The people involved are also part of the most bloody regime imaginable who routinely massacre and enslave entire populations, and depending on who you are unlucky enough to be liberated by they might also slaughter the inhabitants wholesale just to make a point, with levels of regret that might vary between 'a lot but not enough to turn' and 'none whatsoever' or just ignore as someone else does it for them. Essentially they are heroic by virtue of their opponents being worse, even the Salamanders are monstrous amoral creations if i'm being generous.

 

Sure Frank Castle saves people, does that mean Frank Castle is a good person? Not even remotely, depending on the writer Frank Castle might even tell you so.

Edited July 21, 2017 by Loesh

[Arkangilos]

I think it's subjective. Someone can be heroic and still stand against all of my values. As a warrior, it's a matter of action in battle, not what they stand for. Are they dying/ putting their lives on the line/ making great personal sacrifices to save others? Yes? Heroic. Are they still fighting despite the odds against them? Yes? Heroic.

 

I would even consider my enemies heroic when they do the same, and my goal is still to kill them.

[DogWelder]

 

 

I'd hesitate to label anything or anyone in the setting heroic, even by that definition. 

 

I mean saving entire star systems from being ritually slaughtered down to the last man, woman and child to advance the agenda of a literal demonic entity seems very heroic to me...

 

The people involved are also part of the most bloody regime imaginable who routinely massacre and enslave entire populations, and depending on who you are unlucky enough to be liberated by they might also slaughter the inhabitants wholesale just to make a point, with levels of regret that might vary between 'a lot but not enough to turn' and 'none whatsoever' or just ignore as someone else does it for them. Essentially they are heroic by virtue of their opponents being worse, even the Salamanders are monstrous amoral creations if i'm being generous.

 

Sure Frank Castle saves people, does that mean Frank Castle is a good person? Not even remotely, depending on the writer Frank Castle might even tell you so.

 

 

Well as I've said before:

 

One side has an insane man wearing the skin of dead orphan children, screaming incoherently about the Dark Gods consuming the stars,and attempting to saw off your head.

 

 

The other side...is not doing that.

 

 

I mean with Chaos the moral ambiguity thing has never made any sense when we can clearly see that chaos is several times worse than the Imperials. So while I understand why there would be motives for joining chaos (lust for power, lust for reveeeeeengeee etc.), I don't think they can make any kind of moral argument that doesn't just fall apart immediately. 

 

I can see the "shades of grey" thing happening with the Tau but not any other faction tbh.

[HeritorA]

'Well as I've said before:

One side has an insane man wearing the skin of dead orphan children, screaming incoherently about the Dark Gods consuming the stars,and attempting to saw off your head.

The other side...is not doing that...'

 

- that's pretty much sum up that case. In my humble opinion I think you are totally right

[b1soul]

I'd hesitate to label anything or anyone in the setting heroic, even by that definition.

 

Plenty of warriors in the 40k setting who beat the odds...pull off daring wins, etc.

 

Plenty of such "heroes" in real world mythology, but from a modern moral perspective, a lot of them are complete tossers.

 

In that sense, I think 40k is brimming with such "heroes"

 

No one's a shining light of morality in 40k...I would agree with that

Edited July 21, 2017 by b1soul

[Mellow]

I think it's subjective. Someone can be heroic and still stand against all of my values. As a warrior, it's a matter of action in battle, not what they stand for. Are they dying/ putting their lives on the line/ making great personal sacrifices to save others? Yes? Heroic. Are they still fighting despite the odds against them? Yes? Heroic.

 

I would even consider my enemies heroic when they do the same, and my goal is still to kill them.

The traitors don't feel the same.

 

When someone is fighting against the odds against them they say things along the lines of "heroic, or deluded?"

[Arkangilos]

What are you trying to say? That because some chaos members aren't heroic and label heroes as deluded I should change what I consider a hero?

[Loesh]

 

 

 

I'd hesitate to label anything or anyone in the setting heroic, even by that definition. 

 

I mean saving entire star systems from being ritually slaughtered down to the last man, woman and child to advance the agenda of a literal demonic entity seems very heroic to me...

 

The people involved are also part of the most bloody regime imaginable who routinely massacre and enslave entire populations, and depending on who you are unlucky enough to be liberated by they might also slaughter the inhabitants wholesale just to make a point, with levels of regret that might vary between 'a lot but not enough to turn' and 'none whatsoever' or just ignore as someone else does it for them. Essentially they are heroic by virtue of their opponents being worse, even the Salamanders are monstrous amoral creations if i'm being generous.

 

Sure Frank Castle saves people, does that mean Frank Castle is a good person? Not even remotely, depending on the writer Frank Castle might even tell you so.

 

 

Well as I've said before:

 

One side has an insane man wearing the skin of dead orphan children, screaming incoherently about the Dark Gods consuming the stars,and attempting to saw off your head.

 

 

The other side...is not doing that.

 

Caius, in this very book we have an event called the Chronostrife, wherin the public immolation of individuals is called over Heretical Calenders.

 

Heretical Calenders.

 

The point where the Imperium was better then that was....actually never, because the Emperor's Death Cults exist, BUT IF THEY DIDN'T, it was probably lost around the time planets were getting annihilated for tax rounding errors. 

 

I mean generally on the whole Chaos is worse, but as I said, that's largely the only reason I can see the Imperium as possibly heroic? Like literally by virtue of being a lesser evil...sometimes.

 

Edited July 21, 2017 by Loesh

[Arkangilos]

None of us are saying the Imperium as a whol is heroic. We are saying that individuals within it do heroic things, and they themselves are heroes.

[Loesh]

None of us are saying the Imperium as a whol is heroic. We are saying that individuals within it do heroic things, and they themselves are heroes.

 

I know, but I find that hard to agree with just by association with...everything else, any qualities I might admire are pretty much undermined by the organization they are attached to, though I definitely understand B1soul more classical view on heroics.

 

To me if anyone in 40k was heroic they are most likely largely severed from any of the greater overall factions, such as Blackshields.

[Arkangilos]

So someone who does something heroic is disqualified to you because they belong to a bad organization? Even if they went out of their way to save their brothers? Or they died so that people could evacuate to safety? Just because the organization of the Imperium allows bad stuff to happens, their heroic acts don't count?