Nico's Treatise on Bayonet Stabbing for 8th Edition

[Nicodemus Doloroso]

Seems high time to revive "Nico's Treatise on Bayonet Stabbing" as I venture into 8th edition and rekindle by love affair with Imperial Guard. Today I fought my first battle of 8th. It was definitely a learning experience. I made many tactical errors and also got schooled hard on the new capabilities of various Eldar new abilities as I fought my friend who primarily plays Eldar.

I also lost my half-written battle report to the warp! So I'm going to do more of a summary second time around and no fluffy narrative stuff -- it was pretty one-sided anyway and not really worthy of a full report.

Here's a quick rundown of the forces (NB my force was basically me throwing together every painted IG model I own, and going all-out on wargear to get up to 1500 points, so my non-optimized list versus a very optimized list honed over about a dozen 8th edition games tells part of the story of the beat-down I received):

EMPEROR'S OWN VALKAN RIFLES

1) Battalion Detachment

Company Commander, power sword, plasma pistol

Company Commander, power sword, laspistol

Commissar, power sword, bolt pistol

Ministorum Priest, power sword

Infantry Squad, flamer

Infantry Squad, meltagun

Scions (10), meltagun x2, flamer

Chimera - HFx2

Chimera - ML, HF

Ratlings (5)

2) Spearhead Detachment

Tank Commander - Vanquisher, lascannon, multimelta x2

Leman Russ Battle tank - heavy flamer

Leman Russ Battle tank - heavy flamer

Hydra - heavy flamer

[7 Command Points]

AELDARI XENOS SCUM

Farseer with Ghost Helm (and probably other gear)

10 Rangers

8 Dire Avengers

9 Shining Spears

6 Howling Banshees

5 Fire Dragons

Wave Serpent w/ 2x lance

Wave Serpent w/ 2x lance

Night Spinner

[4 Command Points]

We forgot to give our army leaders warlord traits (just realized this as writing)!

We did Eternal War Retreival Mission and I chose old school long table edge deployment:

The lasgun ammo tin is a proxy for my second Chimera which I accidentally left at home. Otherwise you've got tanks to the left, chimerae in the middle, platoon holding an objective/ruins, Hydra alone to the right (big mistake -- I should have deployed it last with a good range of fire and away from those Shining Spears who are gods in 8th edition, whereas they weren't so much of a much in 7th and I therefore woefully underestimated them).

He has Wave serpents in the middle, and to my right the Night Spinner and the Shining Spears.

We then deployed the "infltrators":

Basically, Ratlings with a commanding view from atop the ruins left of centre and his Rangers in the ruins in front of his Serpents.

I'm going to hit post now so I don't lose what I've written and do the game in the next post ...

[Nicodemus Doloroso]

TURN 1

It can be fairly said that my errors began with deployment. I should NOT have had my forces spread out like that, and bubble-wrapping of tanks is still very necessary. But more on that later ... first turn his Shining Spears advanced forward and shot and assaulted because apparently they can do all that stuff, and quite easily nuked my Hydra. 9 Lances will do that!

His Wave Serpents shuffled to my left and took some pot shots at the leftmost Russ, taking it down 2 or 3 wounds. His Rangers knocked two wounds off my company commander who you can see with the die next to him amidst the infantry squads.

On my turn the tanks rumbled forwards (for the Emperor) as did the Chimera with Scions (which popped smoke). One of the infantry squads did advance "Forwards, for the Emperor" and my Rough Riders showed up on the Scene. I got some first-hand experience of the "new and improved Leman Russ" ... the Russ Commander and his compadre fired at the Fire Dragon/Farseer/Howling Banshee Wave Serpent. The LRMBT did zilch. It maybe knocked off one wound. The Vanquisher looked like it would do the same, whiffing badly with the main cannon and the lascannon. The sponson multimeltas shaved about 8 wounds off though. If I'd rolled even remotely decent on the other weapons I think there's a fair chance I could have "one-shotted" that Serpent.

I made my charge with the Riders (thanks to judicious use of a command re-roll) and then promptly rolled outrageously bad. I think I killed ONE Shining Spear. LOTS of 1s and 2s rolled.

TURN 2:

This allowed him to jump out of combat and gun-down the Rough Riders who, thanks to the multiple damage of the lances, evaporated under the fire of the Shining Spears. I learned very early in this game to HATE how Eldar can withdraw from combat and still shoot with basically their whole army.

His Fire Dragons disembarked and deleted my Vanquisher. The rest of his shooty stuff wiped out the Russ with him. In my turn, the Scion Chimera raced forwards and he was saying "nice knowing you" to the Rangers, only for the dual heavy flamers to roll quite poorly leading to only a couple dead. One Infantry squad charged or tried to charge his Shining Spears. I forget what happened but I believe combined overwatch/combat/battle shock killed them all. Things were already looking quite grim at the end of 2:

TURN 3:

Here's where he made maximum use of his Eldar rules and where I learned some really hard lessons. His shooting killed my chimera and a Ratling, plus a few wounds off the surviving Russ. Nothing too brutal so far, but then he charged my Scions with his Night Spinner thus preventing them from doing anything useful especially since grenades cannot be used in combat anymore as near as we could tell from the rules.

The Russ proved how poor its battlecannon is, alas. I actually rolled darn good in overwatch as his Shining Spears charged in. I rolled three sixes to hit (on 4 shots so above average even if I wasn't overwatching), then did two wounds, and killed one Shining Spear. The Russ simply cannot pump out anywhere near enough firepower. He didn't do much damage to anything in close combat but the key was that he had neutralized 100% my Scions and rendered them useless, as well as the Russ.

In my turn I shot and charged everything I had into his Shining Spears. The power swords were quite good against them, but with 2 wounds apiece it was hard slogging and he rolled well on battle shock so he still had two left who were free to withdraw and shoot.

His turn 4 was fairly uneventful, he withdrew with everything in combat, and shot. This killed-off the Russ. I decided to concede because there was very little I could do with the remainder. I had 5 Scions (albeit with 2x melta and a flamer), two command squads, a commissar, and a 1 wound company commander. The priest died to shooting. And his Howling Banshees and Dire Avengers were untouched.

CONCLUSIONS/THOUGHTS:

So ... yeah, that was pretty one-sided and a bit embarassing, but for the fact that my opponent has had a dozen games to learn 8th and hone his skills/forces whereas I threw together a list with the models I had available and was playing 8th for the first time ever, so maybe it wasn't quite so bad as it seems at first blush. I did get stomped pretty good, but average dice on the Rough Rider charge and it would have been a different game as those Shining Spears would not have been able to run roughshod over my army.

The tanks were quite disappointing. He had a ton of anti-tank weaponry and I let my tanks get caught in the open by Fire Dragons which will never be good no matter the edition. I am still not good a stopping his Wave Serpents from delivering those Dragons wherever whenever he wants, but better deployment would have helped a lot.

I think what I needed was a lot more boots on the ground to start. And I can see how vox casters could pay huge dividends allowing me to place my officers further away/out of LOS rather than in the thick of it. I made fairly poor use of orders too as I had a lot to keep track of. Practice will help with this a lot. I think using vehicles for officers to hide in turn 1 and then use as LOS blockers could be important. I think Taurox Primes would be better in this regard though. Multilasers are absolute rubbish in this edition as far as I can tell from limited use. At least in the old days if they skimmed off a hull point that's 1/3 of the enemy tank.

As for some general thoughts on 8th edition, so far I like the basic rules. They are much simpler, streamlined, and make for a quicker and bloodier game. It seemed clean mechanically. I'm not so sure about the balance issues, but I should not use this game as a measuring stick given the handicaps I've mentioned.

[Gen.Steiner]

With the Imperial Guard, there are always more bodies. I think this will be the edition where the humble trooper will be king. Lots of infantry to provide access denial to reserves 'deep striking' in, lots of lasguns to provide weight of fire, lots of heavy weapons to kill enemy armour and characters...

On the other hand, I think that things like Hellhounds, Wyverns, Hydras, Punishers etc will have a place - lots of dice, lots of damage.

[Nicodemus Doloroso]

Reflecting more on the battle, I am glad that I have my Kreig models so I can thoroughly play test with a painted army and discover what's good and what's not so I can build my Praetorians as a legit 8th edition force.

 

Gen. Steiner: Yes, I think you are absolutely right, the humble trooper will be king. Who cares about losing 10 or 20 4 point troopers when you've got  a pile more, and who cares about all the weapons that are -3 and more AP and multiple wounding (as my friend's Eldar army is absolutely PACKED with) when I only had a 5+ and 1 wound anyway? I also think hiding autocannons and lascannons in there will make it very very difficult for the enemy to neutralize anti-tank capabilities. And this is why my Praetorians will feature many infantry squads.

 

The tactic of neutralizing infantry by tank shocking them was an interesting one and incredibly annoying. And while it goes against every fibre of my being, I think this makes it way better to have two squads of 5 Scions in a transport rather than one squad of ten. Or alternatively throw a Tempestor Prime in there so he can order them back into the fight. Because that tactic really screwed me, especially with Eldar vehicles who can then just withdraw next turn and shoot you to kingdom come. And I guess that's the value of a Chimera over a Taurox right there -- I can put a Tempestor plus 10 Scions inside one and then open fire with all 4 meltaguns and perhaps 2 plasma.

 

I learned a lot about taking down vehicles this edition. Firstly, Russes will NOT cut the mustard in that role. I'm not really sure what the basic battle cannon can really do ... on paper you'd think killing stuff like those Shining Spears is where they would shine. But killing only one Shining Spear when I rolled quite well. Three hits only resulting in two wounds? Bleh. That said, the sponsons seem to be the stars of the Russ chassis. Too bad few of my Russes have sponsons since they were unusable in 7th!

 

I'm really not sure how to deal with a unit like those Shining Spears. As I said, they are gods on the tabletop this edition. They have T4 2 wounds each, they are super fast (not 7th edition jetbike fast, but still move over 20"), and lots of them -- it's not like a terminator squad where killing off one is a decent accomplishment. But again, I can't fully judge because of my rustiness/poor tactics, target prioritization and suspect list-building. We'll see how the rematch goes and now that I know the proper respect to give such units we shall see what we shall see.

 

Oh and shout-out to the Ratlings ... I only had five of them but they shaved two wounds (would have been three but for the ghost helm) off the Farseer and killed a couple rangers. Not bad for five hobbits over two rounds of shooting.

[NatBrannigan]

Shame about the Russ but frankly the LRBT and Demolisher looked poor on paper anyway, which is a damn shame as they're my favourite! Demolished and Executioner (Pask in one, naturally) for my list this weekend.

 

Those jetbikes... There I was looking at your first picture thinking you'd outfoxed your opponent putting a Hydra where he could shoot at them. Even one round of shooting at them would have been devastating I suspect, but that is one fast unit! Infantry screening everything it is then.

 

I see you only had one Commissar in your list, how did that go? I thought they would be vital but since any half decent amount of firepower probably puts 10 wounds on a squad anyway... Save them for Conscripts?

 

Ratlings seemed to do ok, I'm using my Vindicare and have high hopes for him. Always did me proud in 7th!

[Nicodemus Doloroso]

I see you only had one Commissar in your list, how did that go? I thought they would be vital but since any half decent amount of firepower probably puts 10 wounds on a squad anyway... Save them for Conscripts?

 

 

One commissar was enough, but then again I only had 20 regular troopers, and 10 Scions who were off operating independently, and a bunch of vehicles. He did one summary execution that prevented a squad from evaporating (took six wounds and rolled a '5' on battle shock). I needed him for the other squad that I tried to move to attack the bikes which was a mistake because Guard are way too slow for that, much better to let the Eldar come to me.

 

Yeah, those Shining Spears now basically have a short-range lascannon on each bike. Much more brutal than they were previously so they just ripped the Hydra apart, especially since they were able to charge it on turn 1. Next time I will deploy the Hydra last so he has to put those bikes down first, and will keep them outside the threat range of bikes but within its own range.

 

The Rough Riders should have done WAY more damage than they did. I will not roll that poorly every time. I believe I only landed two or three hits and ONE wound. The potential was there that with average rolling a 100 point rough rider squad could totally mess-up that 300 point Shining Spear Squad. I was grossly lacking in anti-tank to deal with those serpents though, owing to the weakness of Russes. I will try lascannon and autocannon HWTs in the near future for sure.

 

However, I think next battle may feature lots and lots of Scions because I have a feeling that my "Inquisitorial Storm Trooper" army may have a new lease on life with the new deepstriking rules and Scion point values/loadouts.

[micdicdoc]

Thanks for posting this up, it's really interesting and insightful to see how other guard players are faring in the edition.

 

With regards to the vanilla LRBT, it doesn't seem that anybody is having much luck with it. This continues to disparage me because I think it's the most iconic of all variants. I can't help but think, however, that maybe taking more vanilla variants, with battlecannons, lascannons and heavy bolter sponsons might boost their overall effectiveness. The only way to rectify D6 hits per battlecannon is, I guess to boost the number of D6's we get to throw. And rather than it being redundant to take several vanilla LRBT's, with the each gun being able to fire at a different target I think a multi-tank build might be quite versatile. What do you think?

 

Interesting point as well about the use of vox-casters. I was originally content with the thought of placing the commanders nearby to units, but with the very real threat of snipers on the table, paying a little extra for voxes might provide a little more insurance.

 

How do you plan, if at all, to change up the list for next time?

[Nicodemus Doloroso]

Plans for next time?

 

Well, the next time I bring the Emperor's Own Valkan Rifles, I am limited by models. I may request a 1000 point game so I have more flexibility.

 

I think I want to up the 8-man Rough Rider Squad to 10, plus bring two other squads each with 2x melta as I have the models for this (albeit unpainted). The mobile/outflanking melta I think can be quite helpful and a 10-man vs. 8 man squad all with lances will hit a bit harder and hopefully I don't pooch my rolls so much next time.

 

Command Squads will deploy inside chimeras next time around I think to keep them safe from snipers. I'll probably add vox casters. I will likely add more infantry squads as I have 10 painted Catachan Penal Legionaires and I also have some unpainted Cadians who I was going to paint up to match my Death Korps models. I'll likely leave the tanks at home to free up the points for this stuff -- trading toys for boys. I have some unpainted HWS 3x lascannon, 3x autocannon. So I should be able to bring a much different look.

[NatBrannigan]

Yep, not a list I'd bring so I look forward

To hearing how the boys get on in your next game! I'll see if I can add anything to the knowledge pool after Saturday. Not using only painted models so I can bring anything, and should have my 10 rough riders made by then as well.

 

Up against my friend who is a returning player and his currently sub par marine army so I may have the opposite problem to you! Think I'll take a nice easy army, try out a bit of everything. More Infantry for sure.

 

I've just ordered some 5x2 movement trays for my infantry squads so they'll be nicely ranked up and speedy to move round the table. Most excited by that I think!

[Nicodemus Doloroso]

Cool. Where did you get the trays? I may do that with my Praetorians!

[Gen.Steiner]

On Tanks:

The LRMBT's battlecannon suffers from the loss of the pie plate. The best turret weapons (mathematically, according to at least one analysis) are the Executioner's plasma cannon - but that really needs to be paired with Pask so it can re-roll any 1s - and the Punisher, followed by the Demolisher. Everything else is varying shades of 'meh', sadly.

On the other hand, absolutely, more tanks will offset that, and hull and sponson weapons are still useful. I think a troop of three LRMBTs will put out the hurt, particularly if one is a tank commander (or Pask) but it's important to note that they will still be sub-par when compared to the Executioner etc

On Snipers:

Ratlings are compulsory. They can split fire (!) so you can snipe with individual Ratlings at a target until it dies then switch to another one in the same Shooting Phase. I'll be taking 10 every game I bring Guard to.

[NatBrannigan]

On Tanks: Agreed and I've always liked those three variants anyway so I'll mainly be running them with Pask. You can't take Tanks out of a Guard Army! You take the Venom from a snake and what do you have? A belt...

 

On Movement trays: I got mine from Sarissa-precision.com Nico. Mainl because it's a British company so easier for postage. Nice Cheap 5x2 ranked trays (their Lord of the Rings range of trays) and some 4 slots on a round base (their Bolt Action range) for Command Squads. I'll get some pictures up when they arrive.

 

On Ralings: Looking through the rules it looks like you have to say what various weapons in a squad are shooting at before rolling any dice Gen Steiner? So is it:

 

a) Pick a single Ratling and choose Apocathary as target, roll a dice to hit, then wound, then see if the wound is saved. Then pick Ratling number 2 and do the same. Then pick Ratling number 3, do the same and kill Apothacary, then pick Ratling number 5 and target Librarian etc etc...

 

b) Pick the unit of Ratlings. Say you are shooting 3 Ratlings at Apothacary and 2 at Librarian. Roll dice.

 

I read it as b) and I really hope that is the case or shooting phases are going to be very very long and boring!

[Gen.Steiner]

I think it's option B too, but that's still a pretty good chance to kill at least two characters a turn if you're firing five Ratlings at each one. If you feel lucky or are up against weaker characters you could kill three a turn - 3 Ratlings at target A, 3 at target B and 4 at Target C.

[NatBrannigan]

Thanks Gen.

 

I'll stick to my Vindicare for now and might look at modelling up some snipers at some point in the future. Maybe as the Regiments "Light Company" of skirmishers.

 

Nico, Sicons in transports. Happy with that as their deployment method or do you think they would have been better deep striking?

[Silas7]

Not to high jack the thread but does the taurox prime battle cannon perform as well as the russ?

[Gen.Steiner]

Special Weapon Sniper Squads are another alternative. I think the Vindicare is probably a good idea if you want to definitely kill at least one thing dead every two turns, but my experiences with them have been just that - fairly lacklustre. I think firing lots of sniper shots at a single target (or two) is probably the best way to thin out the opposing force's officers and buffs.

Taurox Prime Battle Cannon is, off the top of my head, basically the same statline, so I would imagine it's just as 'meh'.

[Nicodemus Doloroso]

I think it's option B too, but that's still a pretty good chance to kill at least two characters a turn if you're firing five Ratlings at each one. If you feel lucky or are up against weaker characters you could kill three a turn - 3 Ratlings at target A, 3 at target B and 4 at Target C.

 

It is pretty clearly option B from my reading of the rules, which state: "... declare how you will split the shooting unit's shots before any dice are rolled ..."

 

So before you roll any dice you need to say which Ratlings are shooting at what.

 

I think it is a bit overly optimistic to think that 3 Ratlings will be able to kill a character in one round of shooting. Even Guard characters have 4 wounds apiece now. With 3 Ratlings I was able to do 3 wounds on a Farseer in one round thanks to rolling 1 mortal wound -- however thanks to his Ghost Helm he was able to save that. He still had 2 wounds left (and he had already taken one wound previously from Perils of the Warp). So I think I would be more inclined to pour all 10 into someone I really want dead like a warlord just to be safe. That said, I agree that Ratlings or snipers of some flavour are nearly mandatory if for nothing else than to distrupt your enemy's plans as he has to be mindful of his characters vulnerability to sniper fire.

 

Thanks Gen.

 

I'll stick to my Vindicare for now and might look at modelling up some snipers at some point in the future. Maybe as the Regiments "Light Company" of skirmishers.

 

Nico, Sicons in transports. Happy with that as their deployment method or do you think they would have been better deep striking?

 

Since we don't have Marbo, but Victoria Miniatures has some sweet bits for making a Marbo type victorian guy I'm considering doing a Praetorian counts-as Vindicare, but do you guys think that would be kosher?

 

RE: Scions in transports ... well, it was hard to say because they did not get out of their Chimera at their own initiative, but rather got shot out of it when the thing blew up under massive amounts of Eldar fire (must admit, it did take a LOT more shooting to kill that Chimera than it would have taken in 7th), then they got charged by that Night Spinner robbing them of any shooting. So I will have to do more battles to say. In theory I think given the survivability of transports and no more crew shaken/stunned/immobilized to ruin your day, it has the potential to be a very reliable delivery system. Especially for melta I think this will be important so you can get within 6" whereas deep-striking you're always going to be 9" away (although this will be awesome for plasma Scions).

 

Just seeing how my opponent used his Fire Dragons, he was able to get them right into my face via Wave Serpent deployment and we could certainly do the same.

 

Not to high jack the thread but does the taurox prime battle cannon perform as well as the russ?

 

 

I haven't had a chance to try it out yet. Seems on paper like it will not be too different.

 

 

Special Weapon Sniper Squads are another alternative. I think the Vindicare is probably a good idea if you want to definitely kill at least one thing dead every two turns, but my experiences with them have been just that - fairly lacklustre. I think firing lots of sniper shots at a single target (or two) is probably the best way to thin out the opposing force's officers and buffs.

 

Taurox Prime Battle Cannon is, off the top of my head, basically the same statline, so I would imagine it's just as 'meh'.

 

Special Weapon Sniper squads will be a bit lacklustre I'd think since they're BS3 and you can only take 3 ... might as well go Command Squad and load them up with 4 sniper rifles as BS4. I think that for the price Ratlings are still going to be better, especially since they can "infiltrate" for a better firing position.

 

The question for me is more how to model them to fit in with my Praetorians! I'm thinking maybe going to Dwarf/Thunderer route with some 40k-ification (cadian Canteens, laspacks, backpacks) and pith helmets.

[Galron]

Either ratlings or command squads for sniper rifles. SWSs suffer from BS4+ and you only get 3, vs a command squad with 4 guns. While I fully expect this to change when our codex arrives in year or two, for now command squads are superior to SWSs in every way and with sniper rifles are even cheaper than a sniper SWS team.

[NatBrannigan]

Just as 'meh' but on a faster, cheaper vehicle with BS 3+ that's also a transport. The Taurox with Battlecannon is probably better than your basic Russ now really. The Gatling cannon version is none to shabby either!

 

For now my Taurox is getting it's Battlecannon turret back and I've got an Inquisitor and friends needing a ride.

[Gen.Steiner]

Nicodemus, if you can get hold of the old 2nd Edition metal Ratlings, they come with 19th Century style frock coats with facings and so on that can easily be painted to match your Praetorians. If you wanted to go the whole hog you could try and attach pith helmets or just go for some head swaps.

[Nicodemus Doloroso]

I'll have to just check eBay once in a while. I have seen them occasionally available, but currently see none being sold.

 

I have lots to build before I get to Ratlings anyway.

[Gen.Steiner]

Yeh, just keep your eyes peeled. I have ten which I've had since 2nd Edition... so you're not getting those mwahahahaaa etc etc.

Alternatively you could use kneeling Praetorians with telescopic sights on their lasrifles, perhaps?

[NatBrannigan]

Kromlech are making Squats now. The "Dvergr Commando Sniper Team" would appear to be perfect for Ratlings.

[Gen.Steiner]

Oooh Squat Snipers. Interesting stand-ins. You might have problems playing with them in GWs though.

[Nicodemus Doloroso]

Well my Praetorians are mostly Victoria Miniatures anyway so I'd have issue playing at GW in any event. I've actually never been to the local GW.

 

I looked at the Kromlech Squats. They seem too modern and tactical to fit with Praetorians to me.