Unit of the Week 8th: Assault Squads

[Race Bannon]

In hindsight, the idea to build the models is not a bad one, because it lets you build a cool model first! If anything you'll have the option to field it later.

 

At the same time, you could counts-as to test it ^_^

[Kua]

In addition, you can always say they are slightly too big chainswords wielded two-handedly only by coincidence. :p

[Tyberos the Red Wake]

I doubt people will mind if you count the Eviscerators as chainswords.

[Jacques Corbin]

I am thinking of running the sergeants with Plasma Pistols, one with a Power Axe and the other with a Power Maul, to see which I like better. I want the extra strength to wound MEQS on 3+ and give me a shot at wounding higher toughness units.

[Kierdale]

With the power weapon debate I was also leaning toward axes and mauls so I could wound marines on 3s and have a better chance at higher T targets (though the enemy would get a better save than if I use a sword)...but one thought came to mind: rerolls.

Isn't it better to use a sword, be able to use a CP reroll To Wound if necessary, and have a -3 AP than an easier To Wound Roll and a lower AP? You can't force the enemy to reroll a save.

 

I'm not sure I managed to explain what I mean very well there but I hope you get the idea :D

[Jacques Corbin]

Yes, but, that reroll for a CP is better spent on charges, that 4+ for Ancients or Apothecaries, etc.

[Aziras]

I always used jump assaults as harassment units. Often they are enough annoyance that the opponent have to do something about them, which keeps them off the other units' backs.

 

The combo of fly+fallback+flamers looks really interesting.

Charge them into a unit/vehicle to force them to fall back instead of shooting, then retreat them out to a favorable position and flame-on the next turn. Allows your shooty units to keep firing at the targets and even allows you to fire at something else. Flamers are pretty nasty on overwatch, so you will not see light troops charging them from within flamer range without support. This makes them even harder to tie up and you pretty much have to shoot them dead. Charge a vehicle with them and you force your opponent to fall back or charge them if they want to get rid of those loonies shooting flames all over their flank.

 

I would not deep strike them to get a first-turn-assault. What I would do is keep them in reserve to have options for where to put them (I rarely play with termies so will have plenty of "room"). If your opponent need to turtle up good to not leave a drop spot open for them it is potentially already worth their cost. Add two squads and they will annoy both flanks even if there is no exposed flank for them to double-team. And if there is simply nothing better for them to do, they are not more expensive than viable to deploy in the backfield hidden and jump out to contest an objective if needed.

[Kua]

With the power weapon debate I was also leaning toward axes and mauls so I could wound marines on 3s and have a better chance at higher T targets (though the enemy would get a better save than if I use a sword)...but one thought came to mind: rerolls.

Isn't it better to use a sword, be able to use a CP reroll To Wound if necessary, and have a -3 AP than an easier To Wound Roll and a lower AP? You can't force the enemy to reroll a save.

 

It is always a desperate measure to CP-re-roll a roll with a bad success chance.

You’d better re-roll the 1 when needing a 2+.

It is the other way around if you have an effect that allows you to re roll every miss (without spending CPs), in this case you want to wound worse but harder. See Eldar Banshees + Doom (psy power). Not sure if SMs have similar effects.

[Custodian Athiair]

With the release of the FAQ, and that Assault Squads can now take Meltaguns and Plasma Guns. And with the no scatter deep strikes around now.

 

Are they a valid method of dropping heavy firepower in behind the enemy. Twin plasma gun + plasma pistol can shred through most things with rapid fire at 9". Or if you're thinking there's gonna be tanks aplenty, drop with melta guns and melt things apart.

 

Pose a cheaper alternative to Terminators for a similar role. Granted not as survivable

[Kua]

The FAQ refers to a page with BA rules, not vanilla ones.

[shandwen]

Flamers do have one huge advantage: assult 1. So you can advance your ASMs and shoot the flamers, where pistols can't.

[Custodian Athiair]

The FAQ refers to a page with BA rules, not vanilla ones.

 

Apologies, must have misread, I am a disappointment xD

[Race Bannon]

Me too :(

[mathaius]

I had a decent success running a 10 men squad with JPs, 3 Plasma Pistols and a sword on the sergeant.

Drop down next to a JP/Termi captain and Overcharge away.

They can pack a decent punch and make for a mobile and fairly nasty backfield nuisance/screen for other valuable models.

[Tyberos the Red Wake]

I had a decent success running a 10 men squad with JPs, 3 Plasma Pistols and a sword on the sergeant.

Drop down next to a JP/Termi captain and Overcharge away.

They can pack a decent punch and make for a mobile and fairly nasty backfield nuisance/screen for other valuable models.

 

That actually addresses two questions I've been waiting for more tournament information on:

 

- Do you find you prefer 10 man squads, especially for assault? Have you found situations where you would Combat Squad them?

- Are plasma pistols worth it now?

[Kua]

As for plasma, read this thread.

 

And for troop size, I see 5 superior to 10 for reasons of morale.

 

Only downside is if you are trying to stay low in deployed unit number to get the first turn.

[mathaius]

 

I had a decent success running a 10 men squad with JPs, 3 Plasma Pistols and a sword on the sergeant.

Drop down next to a JP/Termi captain and Overcharge away.

They can pack a decent punch and make for a mobile and fairly nasty backfield nuisance/screen for other valuable models.

 

That actually addresses two questions I've been waiting for more tournament information on:

 

- Do you find you prefer 10 man squads, especially for assault? Have you found situations where you would Combat Squad them?

- Are plasma pistols worth it now?

 

 

For CP economy i'd prefer 10 men squad (9" charge is risky, but i would need only 1 CP to reroll the result), but as Kua pointed out 5 men are better for morale purposes. That would also give the chance of actually buying two separate squads instead of combat squadding, netting you an extra Sergeant and possibly double up on Plasma/Flamers since each squad can take 3 each.

Plasma Pistols seems worthy now, since they can be shot in CC too. You won't need to sacrifice the shooting when in CC, that's why i will start to bring them over the Flamers.

[shandwen]

Shooting in cc will be a corner case. They have the "fly" keyword so can extract themselves and shoot point blank.

So shooting in cc is only advisable if the enemy has good overwatch and perhaps if it's your only combat.

[mathaius]

Shooting in cc will be a corner case. They have the "fly" keyword so can extract themselves and shoot point blank.

So shooting in cc is only advisable if the enemy has good overwatch and perhaps if it's your only combat.

But maybe you don't want to. In that case, the enemy unit you're in CC with would be able to shoot you in their turn.

Making them Fall Back instead effectively neutralizes one of their units, and they still need to destroy your Assault Marines lest they get shot+charged again.

[Kua]

Correct.

And often a unit is simply safer in CC than when being shot by the entire enemy army. If a non-flying enemy has to fall back, it’s at least one less unit shooting at you and possibly charging afterwards.

[bolvar]

Sadly, they are not worth when you have vanguard veterans costing only 2 more points for one extra attack per model and better wargear options.

 

For example, with the same load:

 

Assault squad with jump packs - 235 points

5 marines with chainsword and bolter pistol

2 marines with chainsword and plasma pistol

2 marines with eviscerator

Sergeant with power axe, plasma pistol, melta bombs

 

Vanguard veterans with jump packs - 251 points

5 veterans with chainsword and bolter pistol

2 veterans with chainsword and plasma pistol

2 marines with thunder hammer (they cant take eviscerators, and thunder hammers are far better)

Sergeant with power axe, plasma pistol, melta bombs

 

For only 16 points...

 

Assault squad can do the following:

5 bolter pistol shots

3 plasma pistol shots OR 2 + melta bombs

1 frag/krak grenade

14 attacks with chainsword

2 attacks with eviscerator

2 attacks with power axe

 

Versus

 

Vanguard veterans:

7 bolter pistol shots OR 6 + 1 frag/krak

3 plasma pistol shots OR 2 + 1 melta bomb

21 attacks with chainsword

4 attacks with thunder hammer

3 attacks with power axe

 

 

I feel really sorry for assault squads, but they are outclassed in every way by their older brothers. The only thing assault squads can do that veterans can't is grabbing 2 flamers, while their older brothers can get a power weapon and special pistols for everyone, access to storm shields AND they have better LD.

 

 

Not worth even with detachment tinkering. Just vastly outclassed.

[Alcyon]

They're definitely outclassed, but I don't think that's the point. I'd never use the Eviscerators for one thing, and I probably wouldn't give the Sergeant a Power Weapon either since they really shouldn't be attacking anything that chainswords aren't good enough to kill. So that makes them a lot cheaper of an option and they fulfill a different role; 2pts each is 20pts vs the Vanguards, I think that's a fair bit, and the Ld doesn't matter as much since you could always run two squads of 5 and get a second Sergeant for free to boost it. Vanguards seem better with a really strong weapons loadout and Storm Shields so you can hunt stronger units; now that Power Fists etc. don't strike last and a Chaplain can overcome their to-hit issue, VVs seem like a good way to fight other HQs or Monstrous Creatures.

 

I think it really comes down to whether you need a unit that's good at chewing up guardsmen, Termagaunts, Fire Warriors or Shoota Boys in CC so you can prevent them from shooting back.

 

This other strategy of using them as a vehicle to carry Plasma Pistols or Flamers up the table quick is something I hadn't considered as much; I think if you're using the Flamer strategy you're going to want to target units that are cheap and weak but good at CC, like Hormagaunts or Choppa Boys, but I think I'd rather shoot those with bolters.

 

The Plasma Pistol idea is interesting because there aren't a lot of other ways to equip a cheap unit with a lot of Plasma, which you want to do so they don't cost a ton all together and you don't mind as much if they die to overcharge. The Deep Strike ability is definitely better if you're shooting I think (9" charge is only like a 1/3 chance or 55% if you bring a Librarian) so delivering a bunch of plasma shots to a unit that isn't expecting it seems pretty good, and you could throw in a cheap Captain too to help avoid getting killed by rolling ones. 

 

TL;DR I would either run multiple 5-man squads of bone-stock Assault Marines to chew up shooty weak troops, or Plasma Pistol guys.

[Syphid]

Is there any advantage to assault squads without jump packs compared to, say, a tactical squad?  Sure you get the extra attack from the chainsword, but tactical squads can now rapid fire boltguns before charging.  Assault squads can take two flamers, but the tactical sgt can take a combi flamer which does basically the same thing.  Am I missing something?

[Tyberos the Red Wake]

Is there any advantage to assault squads without jump packs compared to, say, a tactical squad?  Sure you get the extra attack from the chainsword, but tactical squads can now rapid fire boltguns before charging.  Assault squads can take two flamers, but the tactical sgt can take a combi flamer which does basically the same thing.  Am I missing something?

 

They are Fast Attack and have Eviscerators/plasma pistols. That's about the only thing I see. They aren't going to be very useful or good without some kind of Chapter Tactic or character that specifically boosts them.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Well.  I guess they're cheaper than Honor Guard or Vanguard Veterans, so if points are tight and you need a unit to accompany an HQ in an assault role. . .