St Celestine in 8th

[Beams]

So, I think the big thing is who you are playing. A first turn charge against guard or T'au will probably see you losing Celestine on the opponent turn, when guard retreats and is ordered to fire, or when T'au has the entire army fire overwatch (they still do that, right?)

 

But against Chaos, Marines, or orks, I think she'd do much better.

 

I think your local Meta is prolly really important with how much of an auto include she is.

 

I mostly play against guard, T'au, and chaos Marines, so I find her to be good, but I find it hard to use her effectively against guard.

[Sir_Gaea]

Question. Is a gunline Canoness one with a stormbolter, near a squad of 15 girls with 2 stormbolters and 1 heavy bolter? Is that a Gunline?

[taikishi]

Gunline canoness is going to have a boltgun and either storm bolter or combi-plasma imo since you can legally do that. She's also just as likely to be near a squad of heavy bolter or multi-melta Retributors or an Exorcist.

 

In this particular case, gunline refers more to the entire army, not just a squad or two.

[CaptainMarsh]

I have used Celestine every time in my now 19 games of Sisters in 8th. She has worked both for gunline armies and moving armies well- for gunline she tends to act as a distraction carnifex of the most effective order as well as someone who can tie up units and destroy others. I had a 1250 Sisters army get out with around 950 points on the table versus Tau because Celestine and an Immo took out two Fire Warrior squads turn one and kept on going, soaking up fire and dealing out heavy damage for two more turns while the rest of my army picked them off. Good use of Act of Faith, Strategems, and units makes her a horrifyingly effective addition to a gunline list. Better than a gunline Cannoness? Arguably not, but if not, the difference is very minimal. The amount of damage she can do, hits she can soak, and complication she can cause an enemy is something almost nothing else can replicate.

[Gen.Steiner]

What Captain Marsh said. I add that my thoughts are all hypothetical as I am yet to play any full games of 8th, let alone with Sisters, and they have 19 games under their belt!

[Warsmith Aznable]

I had my first game of 8th yesterday and used Celestine as my Warlord. I used her in more or less the way I have always used her, except now she can't join the Seraphim squad that came down nearby.

 

My opponent, who had never faced Celestine before, hated her. Her ability to soak wounds, her superior movement, her faith powers boost, her flamer-like shooting, her monstrous melee ability, the Geminae that kept coming back, and her own ability to not be dead just when he thought he had finally killed her... he hated every last minute of it. My Celestine and squad of  Seraphim were doing to him what he was doing to me with a Mawloc, two Carnifexes, three Venomthropes, and two squads of the non-shooty 'gaunts. She was definitely the MVP of my game, which is usually Dominions (who failed miserably this time around due to terrible dice rolling.)

[Noeh]

I'll be honest. Nobody at my local store likes her. They HAAAATE her on the field, but they understand why I bring her every game. If the whole army is going pretty ham, I've been known to port her off the board.
"Another battle requires my aid far more! *Jumps into the sky WITH her seraphim*"
-Ignore the fact that my Celestine is a different living saint who could more or less be in multiple places at once...Warp shenanigans.

But yeah, I've done it a lot. In 7th if she wrecked two imperial guard tanks with full hp I would jump her away to make the game more fun/fair at that point.

[Ishagu]

I've thought about her, and I really don't see how she isn't a mandatory addition.

 

Even if you're running a gunline, the fact that she advances and soaks up attention is invaluable.

[ERJAK]

Gunline canoness is going to have a boltgun and either storm bolter or combi-plasma imo since you can legally do that. She's also just as likely to be near a squad of heavy bolter or multi-melta Retributors or an Exorcist.

 

In this particular case, gunline refers more to the entire army, not just a squad or two.

I still kit her out for CC, krumping deepstrikers is more valuable than 2 stormbolter shots or w/e

[taikishi]

I don't disagree, though it would be 3-6 bolter shots (storm bolter/bolter) OR 1-4 bolter shots and 1-2 plasma gun shots in the example I gave.

[Gen.Steiner]

I've thought about her, and I really don't see how she isn't a mandatory addition.

 

Even if you're running a gunline, the fact that she advances and soaks up attention is invaluable.

 

That. Agreed.

[GodwynDi]

Celestine is excellent in every way.  Superiour mobility combined with the best survivability in our forces makes her invaluable.  Nothing else can drop from the sky, seize, and then hold an objective like she can.  Her and the twins will force off any regular squad, and most elite squads, within 2 turns.  That is even before the automatic act of faith she brings to the table.  She brings a lot of value for her cost.  I haven't fielded her with a squad of seraphim yet, but I imagine the rerollable 5++ could be quite useful against some things.

 

Celestine has only been beat out for MVP one game, and that was by a single remaining melta dominion getting charged by a wounded grey knight mech, and overwatching it for 6 damage for a kill.  She then promptly failed the morale test for unit losses and left the field.  I like to think of it less as fleeing and more as dropping the mic.

[Gen.Steiner]

Now that's some serious faith and fire there. Perhaps after running out of ammunition for her weapon she retired to re-arm and re-equip? :D

 

I think it's fairly settled that Celestine is an auto-include and the trick will be in novel tactical uses.

[Noeh]

Celestine is excellent in every way.  Superiour mobility combined with the best survivability in our forces makes her invaluable.  Nothing else can drop from the sky, seize, and then hold an objective like she can.  Her and the twins will force off any regular squad, and most elite squads, within 2 turns.  That is even before the automatic act of faith she brings to the table.  She brings a lot of value for her cost.  I haven't fielded her with a squad of seraphim yet, but I imagine the rerollable 5++ could be quite useful against some things.

 

Celestine has only been beat out for MVP one game, and that was by a single remaining melta dominion getting charged by a wounded grey knight mech, and overwatching it for 6 damage for a kill.  She then promptly failed the morale test for unit losses and left the field.  I like to think of it less as fleeing and more as dropping the mic.

Having played a game with Celestine and 2 sqauds of Seraphim, the 5++ re-rollable annoys the crap out of people.

"Okay and that's 2 -4 ap shots so two of them die." 

*Rolls dice gets a 3* "Oh they have an invuln? Well they die now." *Rerolls dice* "Wait what are you doing?" *Double 5's so they both live* "That's stupid. What kind of rule is a rerollable invuln save on a 5+?!"

[Beams]

So, the first part of the roll is a 6. Modifiers apply after rerolls

 

 

So seraphim don't have a 5++/5++ reroll they have a 6++/5++ reroll. Which is still decent.

[Noeh]

So, the first part of the roll is a 6. Modifiers apply after rerolls

 

 

So seraphim don't have a 5++/5++ reroll they have a 6++/5++ reroll. Which is still decent.

 

This is an extremely stupid rule and my local store plays things the intelligent way. So for me it's a 5++ rerollable. GW really needs to understand that they can apply that sorta crap to certain situations and not EVERYTHING AT ONCE.

[Beams]

I'm not saying it's not stupid, just that it's the way that it is, without playing house rules.

[Servant of Dante]

Well, does the seraphim's rule say to reroll fails, or that they may reroll, because if it says may anywhere you can just choose not to reroll ones that will be successful after modifiers, right?

[Noeh]

Well, does the seraphim's rule say to reroll fails, or that they may reroll, because if it says may anywhere you can just choose not to reroll ones that will be successful after modifiers, right?

 

It says reroll failed. Honestly though if Celestine is giving a +1 to shield of faith, it should only fail if you roll below a 5. This whole "you roll a 3 after moving with a heavy weapon and can't reroll it because you hit..oh, whoops! it's a -1 mod so you miss and can't reroll" thing is just extremely bad design.

[Beams]

 

 

Well, does the seraphim's rule say to reroll fails, or that they may reroll, because if it says may anywhere you can just choose not to reroll ones that will be successful after modifiers, right?

It says reroll failed. Honestly though if Celestine is giving a +1 to shield of faith, it should only fail if you roll below a 5. This whole "you roll a 3 after moving with a heavy weapon and can't reroll it because you hit..oh, whoops! it's a -1 mod so you miss and can't reroll" thing is just extremely bad design.

I agree 100%.

 

I think they did it that way, though, to prevent the 2+/2++ rerollable with a 2+ fnp that plagued 7th edition for a while.

[sedibear]

They've said it was intentional because they wanted to drop the power level of rerolls, and 6++ rerollable into 5++ is markedly weaker than 5++ rerollable into 5++.

 

It's not stupid. It's Rules As Written. If you want to play it house-ruled to work the way it worked in previous editions, and your opponent agrees, go right ahead, but as is it's explicit in the rulebook and the latest FAQ.

Edited June 27, 2017 by sedibear

[Gen.Steiner]

So... hang on... you roll a 1-5 initially, and then you must re-roll because they're Seraphim, and after that re-roll if you get a 5-6 you're OK because Celestine at that point applies her +1 to the Shield of Faith?

[Beams]

So... hang on... you roll a 1-5 initially, and then you must re-roll because they're Seraphim, and after that re-roll if you get a 5-6 you're OK because Celestine at that point applies her +1 to the Shield of Faith?

Yes.

[GodwynDi]

So, the first part of the roll is a 6. Modifiers apply after rerolls

 

 

So seraphim don't have a 5++/5++ reroll they have a 6++/5++ reroll. Which is still decent.

 

That is very counter intuitive.  Not sure if I played that wrong at all, but probably.  

[sedibear]

It's only counter-intuitive from a previous edition mindset. Every single roll modifier works that way now. (Note that most things that interact with Morale don't get affected as those add to the Leadership stat and not the Morale roll, but I digress)

 

We MIGHT get FAQ'd to have the failed Angelic Visage rerolls be optional. That will turn it back into a 5++ rerollable. But right now 6++ into 5++ is how it works.

Edited June 27, 2017 by sedibear