St Celestine in 8th

[taikishi]

So... hang on... you roll a 1-5 initially, and then you must re-roll because they're Seraphim, and after that re-roll if you get a 5-6 you're OK because Celestine at that point applies her +1 to the Shield of Faith?

 

I went over this a few weeks ago when people noticed it in the rules before the official release. Morale is, apparently, different because it's a modifier to your Leadership value, not the roll, but all re-rolls happen before modifiers.

 

Example 1:

* Canoness fires both barrels of a combi-plasma, firing the plasma at max power. All barrels are in rapid fire range.

* Bolter rolls a 1 and a 3. The one is re-rollable per her special ability.

* Plasma gun rolls a 2 and a 5. The -1 penalty isn't applied yet, so her ability can't re-roll the 2.

* If you don't  command point the 2, when the penalty applies it becomes a 1, killing the canoness.

 

Example 2:

* Unit of Ork boyz charge through a terrain feature that applies a -2 penalty to the roll, declaring a charge on a unit 8" away.

* Charge roll is a 7. 7 + 1" = 8. 'Ere We Go cannot re-roll this because you're currently making the distance. If you want to re-roll you have to use a command point.

* If you don't use the command point, -2 applies, making total a 6. Charge fails.

Edited June 27, 2017 by taikishi

[Noeh]

That's the gist of it..and why GW should fix the rule. It's counter intuitive to the extreme and requires even more time be taken to perform basic actions. I thought this whole edition was about taking less time? Guess somebody missed the memo.

[ERJAK]

So, the first part of the roll is a 6. Modifiers apply after rerolls

 

 

So seraphim don't have a 5++/5++ reroll they have a 6++/5++ reroll. Which is still decent.

Nope, Celestine's rule modifies the STATISTIC not the roll. It's more similar to +1S than +1 to wound.

 

For precedent, cover adds +1 to the roll not the statistic. Same with all the minus to hits. So for example, a model shooting at a flyer with BS2 is still BS2 the dice they roll is just at -1 ), a model in cover with a 3+ save still has a 3+ save he just adds 1 to his dice when he's shot at. A unit within 6" of Celestine has a 5++ invul, based on the wording of celestines ability, whether anyone attacks them or not.

 

Even more stuff; repentent eviscerators say 'subtract 1 from hit ROLLS' Cover specifically defines a saving THROW as being the dice roll which makes the save the statistic.

Edited June 28, 2017 by ERJAK

[Jacinda]

Just a bit of wish listing but it would make so much more sense if rules like this said "unmodified rolls of 1." 

[Gen.Steiner]

Arrgh, what.

 

Celestine modifies the statistic baseline from 6++ to 5++ which means that any initial rolls of 5 are a success and don't need to be re-rolled?

 

My head hurts :(

[Servant of Dante]

Does she though? I don't have the rules at hand, but if it says "+1 to invulnerable saves" that's modifying the roll, not the actual statistic. If it says something like "increase their invulnerable save by 1" then it's modifying the sataistic.

[Gen.Steiner]

I don't know because I don't have the book to hand. Will check tomorrow but won't be able to post the answer until Friday!

[Daimhin]

Celestine rule:

 

"...add 1 to their Shield of Faith invulnerable saves."

 

Shield of Faith rule:

 

"Models with the Shield of Faith ability have a 6+ invulnerable save."

 

 

To me this reads as Celestine modifies the save to a 5+. However, I will ask a lawyer who specialises in the writing of laws and the correct interpretation of legislation as written to give me their opinion! (literally a rules lawyer!)

[sedibear]

Interesting, because everything else that modifies rolls specifically says 'rolls'

 

If it was a modifier wouldn't it have said "Add 1 to their Shield of Faith invulnerable save rolls." ?

 

On second reading I think Daimhin has it right, it DOES modify the base value to 5++.

[Servant of Dante]

Hum. I think it's ambiguous. Another thing to discuss with my opponent

[CaptainMarsh]

It has been brought up a few times at my store. In general, we play it as granting a 5++, meaning that Seraphims have rerollable 5++, since it doesn't specify rolls or a saving throw specifically but rather just the base wording of the invulnerable save. However, there remains something of a divide, and is one of two clarifications I would seek.

[ERJAK]

Does she though? I don't have the rules at hand, but if it says "+1 to invulnerable saves" that's modifying the roll, not the actual statistic. If it says something like "increase their invulnerable save by 1" then it's modifying the sataistic.

Just to respond to this part, +1 to invulnerable saves doesn't automatically mean roll. In general the rules are very specific with things like this. Cover modifies the 'saving throw' which the main rules define as the actual dice rolls and almost all modifiers that increase or decrease things very clearly specify 'Roll'.

 

THAT SAID, it is still a bit ambiguous, there's just a better A to B to C logical argument(with precedent and defined terms even!) than the AoF thing. 

[Servant of Dante]

Idk, this is more abiguous to me than the AoF thing, where the RAW seems pretty clear, imo :D

 

This is what happens when you cut word count by not spelling out exactly what you mean in your rules.

Edited June 28, 2017 by Servant of Dante

[Noeh]

Games workshop is notorious for stuff like that though. Hell I've seen several different spots where they refer to a single model of a group as a unit even though when they say unit they typically mean the whole squad. Maybe they should hire a real lawyer to go over the rulebooks with the devs right there to dictate what they mean in each instance and have it worded properly.

[Montford]

It modifies the Shield of Faith save, which is a characteristic, not a die roll. All rules modifying die rolls clearly mention a 'roll' or a 'die'. Besides, the very same rule grants a Shield of Faith save of 6 to any Astra Militarum and Adeptus Ministorum unit also within 6". Clearly this ability increases the save, and does not modify a die roll.

[Servant of Dante]

It modifies the Shield of Faith save, which is a characteristic, not a die roll. All rules modifying die rolls clearly mention a 'roll' or a 'die'. Besides, the very same rule grants a Shield of Faith save of 6 to any Astra Militarum and Adeptus Ministorum unit also within 6". Clearly this ability increases the save, and does not modify a die roll.

Ah, good point. I think I with the examples you've provided here, the aregument makes sense :)

[Gen.Steiner]

Well, that's alright then. 5++/5++ re-rollable is much better. Jolly good stuff.

[Ficinus]

If you're adding one to the save, RAW, wouldn't that mean changing the save from 6++ to 7++? Unless there is text in the rule book that specifies that when you have modifiers to certain base statistics as opposed to rolls (WS, BS, and saves) you increase down. The logic of a +1 to save taking the save from 6+ to 5+ is 7th edition thinking.

[Gen.Steiner]

Improving the save increases its value to 5++.
Worsening the save decreases its value to 7++.
 

Adding to a save increases the value from (say) 4+ to 3+.
Taking away from a save decreases the value from (say) 4+ to 5+.

[Ficinus]

I'm aware that's how it used to work, but that's an old edition mindset/logic, which we've been told to throw out multiple times. Most modifiers for saves are modifiers to rolls (cover and AP), and so don't illuminate the question of how, precisely, things are worded for modification to base WS, BS, and save statistics. RAW, it is either a modifier to the statistic that takes it from 6++ to 7++ or a modifier to the roll (which is ambiguous), unless there is something in the BRB that specifies how positive and negative modifiers work to different statistics (as opposed to rolls). Is anyone aware of the wording of other rules modifying the three roll based statistics? How are they worded?

 

And given how dedicated the board is to RAW for Imagifiers, I can't imagine people wanting to argue RAI here.

[Servant of Dante]

Again, good point Ficinus, I really don't want to be "that guy" and disagree with everyone, but . . . it's not as clear-cut as I want it to be.

[Daimhin]

I had a look at the wording of save modifiers in the rulebook.

 

The only universal save modifiers (cover and weapon AP) both apply to the saving throw rolls. As such, I think it is sensible to assume that Celestine's rule affects the roll, not the statistic.

 

When I'm playing my mates, I'll treat it as a 5++ as I think that's what's intended, and between mates who cares. In a club I'll treat it as affecting the roll. In a tournament I would get a ruling from the organisers before the first game.

[Montford]

I had a look at the wording of save modifiers in the rulebook.

 

The only universal save modifiers (cover and weapon AP) both apply to the saving throw rolls. As such, I think it is sensible to assume that Celestine's rule affects the roll, not the statistic.

 

When I'm playing my mates, I'll treat it as a 5++ as I think that's what's intended, and between mates who cares. In a club I'll treat it as affecting the roll. In a tournament I would get a ruling from the organisers before the first game.

 

It has to apply to the save Statistic. The very same rule grants a 6 Shield of Faith Invulnerable save to Units which have no such save, and increases the Shield of Faith save by 1. If it was supposed to add to the die roll, it would not work for units which have no Shield of Faith in the first place. It must affect the Stat Line.

[Daimhin]

 

 

I had a look at the wording of save modifiers in the rulebook.

 

The only universal save modifiers (cover and weapon AP) both apply to the saving throw rolls. As such, I think it is sensible to assume that Celestine's rule affects the roll, not the statistic.

 

When I'm playing my mates, I'll treat it as a 5++ as I think that's what's intended, and between mates who cares. In a club I'll treat it as affecting the roll. In a tournament I would get a ruling from the organisers before the first game.

It has to apply to the save Statistic. The very same rule grants a 6 Shield of Faith Invulnerable save to Units which have no such save, and increases the Shield of Faith save by 1. If it was supposed to add to the die roll, it would not work for units which have no Shield of Faith in the first place. It must affect the Stat Line.

No, it doesn't have to. It's the same rule, but it's affecting completely different troops in a different way.

 

It's perfectly reasonable to interpret the rule how you are and to use the argument you lay out to justify it. But you are wrong to say it has to be interpreted that way.

Edited June 30, 2017 by Daimhin

[Gen.Steiner]

Hrum.

All good points well made.

 

I think that, in the interests of fairness, if I am applying RAW to the Imagifers (and I am), then I should also apply the bonus in the manner of a 6++/5++ until such time as either a) consensus is reached or b )  a FAQ appears.

Edited June 30, 2017 by Gen.Steiner