St Celestine in 8th

[Ficinus]

Yeah, I mean, I think it should be a change to the save statistic (then again, the reroll mechanic as a whole is sort of silly when discussing failed rolls), but RAW is not always friendly.

[ERJAK]

Adding 1 to the save wouldn't make it 7++. In the context of saves, higher numbers are lower values making them essentially negative. Adding 1 to 6++ would go to 5++ the same way -6 would go to -5.

[Daimhin]

Ficinus'a point is that adding 1 to 6 is 7. Please don't try to argue against that!

 

Obviously, we all know that's not what's intended, but it is what's written!

 

I've gone through the rulebook and it never defines anywhere that adding 1 to a save reduceds the number required. All I can find is instances adding 1 to a save roll.

 

Personally I don't believe that this is what is intended, but it's how I believe it should be payed until an official FAQ is released. If your opponent agrees with the alternate interpretation (as all my friends will!) then go with that!

[Jacinda]

I agree, Daimhin.  It is silly and awkward but it is what is written.

[Montford]

 

 

I had a look at the wording of save modifiers in the rulebook.

 

The only universal save modifiers (cover and weapon AP) both apply to the saving throw rolls. As such, I think it is sensible to assume that Celestine's rule affects the roll, not the statistic.

 

When I'm playing my mates, I'll treat it as a 5++ as I think that's what's intended, and between mates who cares. In a club I'll treat it as affecting the roll. In a tournament I would get a ruling from the organisers before the first game.

It has to apply to the save Statistic. The very same rule grants a 6 Shield of Faith Invulnerable save to Units which have no such save, and increases the Shield of Faith save by 1. If it was supposed to add to the die roll, it would not work for units which have no Shield of Faith in the first place. It must affect the Stat Line.

No, it doesn't have to. It's the same rule, but it's affecting completely different troops in a different way.

 

It's perfectly reasonable to interpret the rule how you are and to use the argument you lay out to justify it. But you are wrong to say it has to be interpreted that way.

 

 

So what you are saying is that one single rule for model A changes a stat, yet  for model B it modifies a die roll instead.

[Lnewlf11]

Does it actually matter what the rule modifies when it comes to re rolls? Modifying a statistic is still a modifier and applies after the re roll doesn't it?

[sedibear]

Does it actually matter what the rule modifies when it comes to re rolls? Modifying a statistic is still a modifier and applies after the re roll doesn't it?

 

It does, if my reading is correct.

 

For a solid example, the Morale phase. During the morale phase, verbatim: "roll a dice and add the number of models from the unit that have been slain this turn. If the result of the Morale test exceeds the highest Leadership characteristic in the unit, the test is failed."

 

Leadership modifiers don't modify the roll. So if you have an LD of 7, get a -1 modifier, you are LD6, and that is what the dice + slain models is compared to.

 

In that example, if you lost 3 models and rolled a 4, you lose a guy. If you had rerolls, you could reroll the 4.

 

If you modified the dice roll, losing 3 models and rolling a 4 would not let you reroll the 4, then you take -1 and lose a guy.

[CaptainHelion]

The rule has two parts. If you have Shield of Faith, you add +1 to your save. If you do not have Shield of Faith, you get it. Simple.

[Gen.Steiner]

I'm going to bring this up with my local GW manager today when I go and buy my copies of Index Imperium 1-2 and the rulebook. I doubt his interpretation will be 'Offical TM', but it will be interesting to hear.

[Daimhin]

I'm going to bring this up with my local GW manager today when I go and buy my copies of Index Imperium 1-2 and the rulebook. I doubt his interpretation will be 'Offical TM', but it will be interesting to hear.

That will at least tell you how it should be played in your local store!

[Gen.Steiner]

Ah, yes - I hadn't even thought of that - excellent!

[Lnewlf11]

 

Does it actually matter what the rule modifies when it comes to re rolls? Modifying a statistic is still a modifier and applies after the re roll doesn't it?

 

 

It does, if my reading is correct.

 

For a solid example, the Morale phase. During the morale phase, verbatim: "roll a dice and add the number of models from the unit that have been slain this turn. If the result of the Morale test exceeds the highest Leadership characteristic in the unit, the test is failed."

 

Leadership modifiers don't modify the roll. So if you have an LD of 7, get a -1 modifier, you are LD6, and that is what the dice + slain models is compared to.

 

In that example, if you lost 3 models and rolled a 4, you lose a guy. If you had rerolls, you could reroll the 4.

 

If you modified the dice roll, losing 3 models and rolling a 4 would not let you reroll the 4, then you take -1 and lose a guy.

According to the rules on rerolls you don't get to reroll that 4. You passed before you add the modifier to the characteristic so no Errol since they come first.

[Daimhin]

Bad Errol!

 

 

[taikishi]

 

I had a look at the wording of save modifiers in the rulebook.

 

The only universal save modifiers (cover and weapon AP) both apply to the saving throw rolls. As such, I think it is sensible to assume that Celestine's rule affects the roll, not the statistic.

 

When I'm playing my mates, I'll treat it as a 5++ as I think that's what's intended, and between mates who cares. In a club I'll treat it as affecting the roll. In a tournament I would get a ruling from the organisers before the first game.

 

It has to apply to the save Statistic. The very same rule grants a 6 Shield of Faith Invulnerable save to Units which have no such save, and increases the Shield of Faith save by 1. If it was supposed to add to the die roll, it would not work for units which have no Shield of Faith in the first place. It must affect the Stat Line.

 

 

Read the rule again. It doesn't give Imperial Guard and Adeptus Ministorum Shield of Faith, it gives them a 6+ invulnerable. There is a slight difference. Also, adding one to the save is, in fact, a modifier that works one of two ways as written:

 

It makes the 6+ a 7+ (because it adds one to the actual save)

It adds 1 to your die roll

 

If anything, it should say it improves your Shield of Faith by 1 -- which would make it a 5+ -- or it should say it adds one to the roll. It doesn't, so a FAQ is actually necessary -- but only because of Seraphim.

[Gen.Steiner]

So I asked my local GW Manager what he thought, and he said, basically:

"It adds one to the save, so they'd get a 5+ invulnerable that's re-rollable. If anyone says otherwise, throw Sisters of Battle at them until they say sorry."

So I guess that's how we're playing it at Leamington Spa for now! :D

[sedibear]

If granted Invulnerable Saves are considered a <CHARACTERISTIC> there's RAW to back it up, as stuff that modifies a characteristic is not considered to be modifying rolls.

 

Normal saves are considered as a Characteristic, but the rulebook afaik makes no mention if invulnerable saves are, but it would make sense if they are.

[Gen.Steiner]

Well I swapped my copy of the BRB for a Deathwatch Getting Started at the shop yesterday so I can't check, but the Battle Primer doesn't seem to make any mention of INV Saves being a characteristic - they don't appear on the Characteristics line (M to Sv) and, where a unit has an INV Save, it is shown in the Special Rules bit of the Datasheet.

[ERJAK]

It makes the 6+ a 7+ (because it adds one to the actual save)

 

Not if saves are contextually negative such that 'adding 1' results in an improved statistic.

 

This type of gak is why they need consistent, defined terms.

 

There's even another issue with Celestine I noticed that I'm not even going to spell out just because I'd rather it never get addressed than risk it getting changed for the worse.

[dracpanzer]

Since the wording doesn't say it applies to save rolls, it adds to your invuln save, we are playing it as a 5++ invuln save for Sisters. Seraphim would get to re-roll failed invuln saves that failed that 5++.

 

Try not to over think it...

[Deadnaughty]

Might aswell ask this here.

 

Can Celestine target herself with Saintly Blessings (the free Act of Faith) or must it be a different unit?

The rules say a character count him/herself for Aura's but it doesnt mention targetted abilities.

[A.T.]

Can Celestine target herself with Saintly Blessings (the free Act of Faith) or must it be a different unit?

The rules say a character count him/herself for Aura's but it doesnt mention targetted abilities.

 

I'm guessing targeting herself is the main reason she has it (and that she and the gemini are a single unit) - so that she can actually keep up with a seraphim unit rather than have them vanish off into the distance under the effects of faith.

 

Nothing prevents it in the rules that I can see.

[Gen.Steiner]

Yes, she can, I believe.

[CaptainHelion]

You're always considered to be in range of yourself, and she's an Adepta Soroitas unit, so she ticks all the boxes as far as I'm concerned.

[Gen.Steiner]

Yup - what CaptainHelion said.

[Purifying Tempest]

You're always considered to be in range of yourself, and she's an Adepta Soroitas unit, so she ticks all the boxes as far as I'm concerned.

But is she friendly? :)

 

Last I checked she almost has a thread dedicated to the stuff she has purged...

 

I was actually curious of that because of the terms they used when writing that particular rule of Celestine.  Target a friendly Adepta Sororitas...

 

The wording kind of implies that she is looking for a friendly unit around (thus, could not use it on an enemy unit in the event that two Sororitas players actually met on opposite sides of the same table).  I've not had anyone get that nit-picky with the rule, but there is enough slack in the wording to definitely lead someone to question why Celestine is so friendly with herself.  It was definitely one of those things that I would rather keep my mouth shut about until such a point that someone wanted to go down that avenue... but I always wondered, personally, if she could poke herself for extra fun.

 

Few instances in which it matters were when she had charged up the field to tie down some murder machine my opponent placed on the table while her entourage of Seraphim limped off to support some other elements on the battlefield.  Poor Seraphim get mowed down pretty quick when you arm them with Inferno Pistols.

 

You would think that all that she is looking for is:

 

Friendly (one of my units, not his)

Adepta Sororitas (sorry Space Marines, get your love elsewhere)

and within 6" (which she is always within)

 

Anyways, back to my hole for a time :)