==][== Feedback to Studio on Grey Knights Issues ==][==

[Valerian]

Gang,

Based on this post by the Warhammer 40,000 Facebook team, I'd like to collect our issues/problems to provide back to the Studio designers, to hopefully influence our codex prior to publication.

Please provide your input in an Issue, Discussion, Recommendation format. Once we've generated a comprehensive list, I'll consolidate and post it. It probably wouldn't hurt if you posted your issues directly to them, as well, as we go along.

V

[Gentlemanloser]

1. Impact of matched play psychic phase rule of 1 on an all psychic army.

 

2. GKT leadership being 1 lower than all other terminators.

 

3. Cost of the GK version of the tech marine.

 

4. Do multiple Psychic Locus, from different brother captains and/or Stern stack?

Edited June 22, 2017 by Gentlemanloser

[LuisMars]

Our Librarians are useless if we can only cast one power. Allow them to cast one power that was already casted.

 

If our Librarians retain the Storm Shield, make it available for Terminators in order to make them less useless.

Purifiers don't feel as elite as they used to.

 

 

We only have a fast attack choice, give Interceptors some friends.

 

I would be great to have a Brotherhood Ancient on power armor.

[Zamtro]

Either make Purifiers Smite hit all units within 3inch Like a nova, or make its base 6inch instead. For their points, lack of deepstrike, incredibly short range Psychic, and only 1 base attack, they're not good enough.

 

Option to give brotherhood champion a Personal teleporter like Interceptors.

 

Heavy incinerator should be 2D6 or something, needs more hits for its point cost.

 

GKT Leadership as GML said

[Rurik the blessed]

- We really need the "Personal Teleporter" as an equipment for Brotherhood champion for example. (or any power armor unit)

 

- Psyammo back please or maybe some kind of selectable ammo like deathwatch, maybe change type to assault 2 +1 to hit

 

- Astral aim for Purgators please

 

- 1 extra attack for purifiers as they are our version to Vanguard Squad.

 

- Hammer hand needs to be "outside" the rule of 1.

 

- Give Crowe something else than a stick.

Edited June 22, 2017 by Rurik the blessed

[Gentlemanloser]

Def!

 

5. Crowe needs his rending back.  To wound rolls of 4+ should be AP-3/-4

 

6.  GKT out performed in every aspect by Paladin

 

7. Purgation Squads not attractive as GK Special guns sub par

 

8. Psycannon needs the same number of shots as an Assault Cannon.

 

9. Individual Squads need a reason to be chosen.  So it's not all TDA are Paladin, all PA are Interceptors.  There needs to be a reason to use Strike Squads.

[TheMostGood]

To manage expectations here, focus on "bugs" or things that need to be FAQ'd. Asking for buffs or changes to established gameplay is likely not going to happen. You'll probably get a "wait for your codex".

[Adeptus]

The only real issue I can see is the LD. Why is ours so much lower than all the other terminators?

[Valerian]

To manage expectations here, focus on "bugs" or things that need to be FAQ'd. Asking for buffs or changes to established gameplay is likely not going to happen. You'll probably get a "wait for your codex".

 

The whole point of this is to influence the development of the codex - that's in the original post.

 

 

However, for those who've already posted, don't make it a wishlist with no justification.  As I also said in the OP, provide your submissions in the Issue, Discussion, Recommendation format; it'll be better received.

[Gentlemanloser]

I'll work on them tomorrow at work.  I'll have more time then. ;)

[Soder]

Clarification on GoI, if it actually counts as having moved.

[Gentlemanloser]

1. Match Play Psychic Phase 'Rule of one'.

 

Issue

 

This rule doesn't scale.  All armies are stuck to casting their native 3 powers only, regardless of the size of your army, or the number of Psychic units your army contains.  This is not much of a problem for Armies with only a single Psyker, but with armies like the Grey Knights, where we can have 10's of Psychic units in play, having all of them restricted to only being able to cast 3 powers in total (bar smite...) is far too restrictive and detracts from the Psychic focused design of the army.

 

Due to Keywords it also encourages the Grey Knights to take other Imperial Librarians, over native Grey Knight Librarians, so we can have more distinct powers to cast each turn.

 

Also, Gate of Infinity being limited to a single cast makes it difficult to use with a Character that has a bodyguard unit.  You can either Gate the Character, or the Bodyguard unit, but not both.

 

Solution

 

Remove the restriction and place a penalty on casting the same power (bar Smite) multiple times per turn.  Increase the Warp Charge cost to cast a power by +1 for every successive attempt to cast.  Possibly also apply this increase as a bonus modifier to any enemy Deny the Witch rolls as well.

 

2. GKT Leadership.

 

Issue

 

Grey Knight Terminators have a Leadership score of 7.  All other Imperial Terminators have a Leadership of 8.  Why the difference?  If this is intended, it puts GKT at a disadvantage to Battleshock rolls, especially compared to other Terminators (Deathwatch and Deathwing) who have remained 'fearless'.

 

Solution

 

Increase GKT leadership scores to 8, like every other Imperial Terminator.

 

3. Grey Knight Techmarine cost

 

Issue

 

While the Grey Knights have to pay a cost increase on 'Space Marine' units to cater for the special rules being part of the Grey Knight Chapter entails, the Techmarines point increase seems vastly inflated.

 

A Space Marine Techmarine is 58 points.  The Grey Knight version is a massive 91 points.  A 33 point difference or a 57% increase in cost.

 

On top of this, the Grey Knight Techmarine is also forced into purchasing a Servo Harness, making their 'base' cost 119 points, over a 200% cost increase.  In addition, this locks the Grey Knight Techmarine out from purchasing a Conversion Beamer.  A wargear option they have had since the Grey Knights 5th edition Codex.

 

Solution

 

Reduce the cost for a Grey Knight Techmarine.  Also do not force the purchase of a Servo Harness.

 

4. Brother Captains Psychic Locus ability

 

Issue

 

Does this ability stack with other instances of itself?  Do two Brother Captains quadruple the range of any Smites cast within 6" of both of them?  Does Brother Captain Sterns Psychic Locus ability stack with that of a generic Brother Captains?

 

5. Crowe's Melee Attacks and Stances

 

Issue

 

Castellan Crowe Is armed with a sharp stick as a Melee Weapon.  He used to have a special rule where he gained Rending on to wound rolls.  This is sorely missing.  He is also missing access to the Sword Stances that regular Brotherhood Champions possess.

 

Solution

 

On successful To-wound rolls of 4+, give Crowes Melee Attacks AP-3 or AP-4.  Also give him access to the two regular Sword Stances.

 

6 & 9.  Internal Balance of Grey Knight units

 

Issue

 

The internal balance of some of the Grey Knight units could be looked at.  Currently there is no reason to use TDA models as anything but Paladin.  They out perform Terminators in every aspect.  The same is true for our Power Armoured models, with there being no reason to take Strike Squads or Purgation Squads (and very little reason to take Purifiers...) over the superior Interceptors.

 

Each Grey Knight unit needs a mechanical reason to be taken over others of the same type.

 

Solution

 

Give the units some differentiation, possibly through Squad based Psychic Powers.  Give Purgation Squads Astral Aim back, Terminators Holocaust.

 

7 & 8. Grey Knight Ranged weapons are no longer attractive

 

Issue

 

The Psycannon used to be a version of the Assault Cannon, with an extra point of Strength.  Now it has lost number of shots, and is no longer similar to the Assault Cannon.  The Psilencer has lost its ability to wound on a 4+ regardless of Toughness.  With the increase in performance of Storm Bolters, the Special Weapon options just aren't as attractive any more.

 

Solution

 

Bring the Psycannon back in line with the Assault Cannon by increasing the number of shots to 6.  While the Psilencer retains 'force' in its d3 Damage, perhaps give it a special rule to make it stand out from Storm Bolters more.  Possibly give the Incinerator the ability to ignore bonuses to saves from Cover, like Template weapons used to have.

Edited June 23, 2017 by Gentlemanloser

[Holier Than Thou]

Gentlemanloser has addressed most of the issues. I would offer an alternative solution for Psychic Focus which severely limits the usefulness and flavour of a fully psychic army.

 

Solution - Allow powers to affect caster and units within a small bubble, say 3". Or allow multiple casts at a slightly increased warp charge as mentioned, maybe +1 for every other successful cast. ie. Hammerhand Warp Charge 6. 1st & 2nd cast needs a 6. 3rd & 4th needs a 7. 5th & 6th needs an 8.

 

I also like Rurik The Blessed's Astral Aim for Purgators and the reintroduction of Psybolt Ammo but I would say in it's original form, +1 to strength but only on Stormbolters.

 

And maybe 3D3 hits with a Heavy Incinerator? Not quite as potentially devastating as 2D6 but more reliable than 1D6. We are paying 40 points for a weapon that could potentially only hit once with only a -1 to saves.

Edited June 23, 2017 by Holier Than Thou

[LuisMars]

1. Match Play Psychic Phase 'Rule of one'.

 

Issue

 

This rule doesn't scale... (What Gentlemanloser said)

Solution 2

 

Domina Liber Daemonica: The bearer can cast his powers even if they have been casted before in that phase.

 

and / or

 

Infinitum Liber Daemonica: The bearer can cast Gate of Infinity even if it has been casted before in that phase.

 

And something similar for all the other powers.

Note that the order in which you cast the powers matters here. It's not spam what we need but flexibility.

Edited June 23, 2017 by LuisMars

[Shadrach03]

Brotherhood Champion / Castellan Crowe

 

Issue

 

These 2 models are exclusively melee beat sticks, although in case of Crowe very poor,  without any way to effect allied Grey Knights around them.  In an edition where the auras that hqs provide can have significant impact on the game it doesn't make sense to spend points on an hq that doesn't buff his army in some way.

 

Solution

 

Bring back a Herald of Titan style rule and give them a 6" reroll to melee hits for units around them.  It was a feature of both of the units when they released in 5th and was left out of their latest incarnations and the army as a whole.

[Shagah]

3. Grey Knight Techmarine cost

 

Issue

 

While the Grey Knights have to pay a cost increase on 'Space Marine' units to cater for the special rules being part of the Grey Knight Chapter entails, the Techmarines point increase seems vastly inflated.

 

A Space Marine Techmarine is 58 points.  The Grey Knight version is a massive 91 points.  A 33 point difference or a 57% increase in cost.

 

On top of this, the Grey Knight Techmarine is also forced into purchasing a Servo Harness, making their 'base' cost 119 points, over a 200% cost increase.  In addition, this locks the Grey Knight Techmarine out from purchasing a Conversion Beamer.  A wargear option they have had since the Grey Knights 5th edition Codex.

 

Solution

 

Reduce the cost for a Grey Knight Techmarine.  Also do not force the purchase of a Servo Harness.

 

I agree totally with what you have said here, although I am a little confused about the costs quoted.

 

I make a GK Techmarine base cost at 136pts, that is the 91 + 2 x servo arms + Power Axe + Plasma cutter + Flamer

Likewise I make the base cost of a SM Techmarine 75 pts that is 58 + a single servo arm + Power Axe

 

So the point still stands, but what have I missed here regarding cost?

 

Also on the GK Techmarine, am I wrong in saying he can't take any of the GK Melee weapons either?  the little blurb about him does not indicate that you can which seems an oversight as well.

[Gentlemanloser]

Like the dedicated thread, i excluded the cost of a servo arm and power axe as they are common to both.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

40k general rules changes:

 

- Psychic Focus: Stupid and counterproductive. Change to 'each casting attempt beyond the first increases the Warp Charge value by +1'. Smite remains except from this, as GK already have a toned down version of it. 

 

GK specific changes:

 

Armoury:

- Psycannon changed to Heavy 6

- Incinerator changed to range 12" (note that all flamers should be changed to Range 12", as they have lost all prior advantages and have zero synergy with most units in most armies). 

- Psybolts as a wargear option for all GK units armed with at least one storm bolter. +2 points per model upgraded (all storm bolters in a unit must be upgraded or none).

Changes profile of storm bolter from Rapid Fire 2 to Assault 2 and Strength 5.

- Any Grey Knight model armed with an assault cannon may exchange it for a heavy psycannon for +20 points, or if armed with a twin assault cannon a twin heavy psycannon for +40 points. 

- Any Grey Knight model armed with a heavy bolter may exchange it for a heavy incinerator for +20 points, or if armed with a twin heavy bolter a twin heavy incinerator for +30 points.

 

HQ:

 

- GK Librarians may select from the Librarius or Sanctic Disciplines when choosing or rolling randomly for their powers. GK Librarians also gain the Daemon Hunters special rule (its nonsensical that they currently lack it).

- Brotherhood Champions gain 'Herald of Titan' special rule. Friendly Grey Knights units within 6" may re-roll failed rolls to hit in the Fight phase. They may purchase a personal teleporter for +10 points, with the same rules as Interceptors (changed Move to 12", gain Teleport Strike and may make a teleport shunt once per game).

- GK Tech-Marines are reduced to 78 points base (before wargear), and are not required to purchase a servo harness. They may purchase a personal teleporter for +10 points, with the same rules as Interceptors (changed Move to 12", gain Teleport Strike and may make a teleport shunt once per game).

- Castellan Crowe gains Blade Stances of Brotherhood Champion, and on rolls of a 6+ to wound in the Fight phase he inflicts a Mortal Wound. Purifying Flame is changed to 'inflicts a Mortal Wound on every enemy unit within 6" of the psyker'. Warp Charge cost increased to 8. 

 

Elites:

 

- Purifiers gain Teleport Strike. Purifying Flame is changed to 'inflicts a Mortal Wound on every enemy unit within 6" of the psyker'. Warp Charge cost increased to 8.

 

Troops:

 

- GK Terminator squads increase Leadership to 8. GK Terminator model points cost reduced from 44 to 38. 

- Strike Squads gain 'Warp Quake' special rule. Enemy units attempting to deploy within 12" suffer D3 Mortal Wounds.

 

Heavy Support:

 

- Nemesis Dreadknights are changed to Weapon Skill 2+. Personal teleporter rules brought in line with the same rules as Interceptors (changed Move to 12", gain Teleport Strike and may make a teleport shunt once per game).

- Purgators gain the 'Astral Aim' special rule. Enemy models may not add any bonuses to their armour saves from cover, when making saves against ranged attacks made by a model with this special rule.

 

 

FAQ questions:

 

- If a unit is deployed by either 'Teleport Strike', a teleport shunt or after being targeted by the 'Gate of Infinity' psychic power, are they considered to have moved for the purposes of firing Heavy Weapons?

- Do the effects of multiple 'Psychic Locus' auras stack? There is some confusion regarding the wording of 'Psychic Locus', as Brother-Captain Stern also possesses this special rule. Is the intention to double the range of nearby 'Smite' attempts once, or is it exponential/multiplicative? Ie, if a Strike squad was in range of three Brother-Captains, would the range of their 'Smite' be 24", 36" or 48"?

 

 

That's all the stuff I can think of for now.

[Captain Coolpants]

I'd like our special weapons to all he the same price. It's not fair and makes no sense why a psycannon for a power armour armoured guy is less than a terminator. They both have the same damage output, the gun remains the same, but the platform get hardier (which we already pay points to improve).

We've seen that all prices have become standardised. A twin Lascannon for a razorback is the same price as it would be for a landraider. So why is it different for our terminators/paladins/characters?

[Gentlemanloser]

Missed that!

 

Seconded.

 

TDA no longer provides Relentless.  Psycannons no longer have two fire modes.

 

They should not differ in cost

[Holier Than Thou]

I'd like our special weapons to all he the same price. It's not fair and makes no sense why a psycannon for a power armour armoured guy is less than a terminator. They both have the same damage output, the gun remains the same, but the platform get hardier (which we already pay points to improve).

We've seen that all prices have become standardised. A twin Lascannon for a razorback is the same price as it would be for a landraider. So why is it different for our terminators/paladins/characters?

  

Missed that!

 

Seconded.

 

TDA no longer provides Relentless.  Psycannons no longer have two fire modes.

 

They should not differ in cost

I would guess it's because Terminators don't have to give up their Force Weapons to take one.

[Gentlemanloser]

The Force Weapons have a cost of zero though.

 

That shouldn't be an issue now.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I'd like our special weapons to all he the same price. It's not fair and makes no sense why a psycannon for a power armour armoured guy is less than a terminator. They both have the same damage output, the gun remains the same, but the platform get hardier (which we already pay points to improve). 

We've seen that all prices have become standardised. A twin Lascannon for a razorback is the same price as it would be for a landraider. So why is it different for our terminators/paladins/characters? 

 

Yeah its kind of insane, especially because you go down to hitting on 4's regardless of it being a Terminator or Strike. 20pts for an average of two autocannon hits? Yeah ok GW.

 

The higher cost of the heavy versions make sense, because Damage 2 and more shots is a straight upgrade. But again, hampered by DK's not ignoring the -1 to hit after moving either.

[Holier Than Thou]

The Force Weapons have a cost of zero though.

 

That shouldn't be an issue now.

Yes, they both pay zero for their Force Weapons. Let's say they both have a sword and stormbolter to start with. They both have rapid fire 2 shooting and they both have strength user, AP-3, D3 damage in melee. They both upgrade to a Psycannon. Now the Power Armoured Grey Knight has heavy 4 shooting and strength user, AP 0, D1 in melee but the Terminator gets the improved shooting without sacrificing any of his melee power. So although the Force Weapons don't cost anything, losing it makes a huge difference. I think it makes sense that PAGK pay less for the special weapons because they lose more by taking them.

[Gentlemanloser]

Then reduce the base costs of pagk, make the ramged weapons cost the same, and give the melee weapons a point cost.

 

Becuase it looks like they should cost 6 points. ;)