==][== Feedback to Studio on Grey Knights Issues ==][==

[Captain Coolpants]

Well with power armour, you lose combat effectiveness by taking a gun, but gain shooting performance. So it's balanced. But each weapons is and remains the same regardless.

 

Whereas the terminator gets to keep both combat and shooting, because of himself, his terminator status (which we pay the points for the model itself).

 

The only difference in points should be the platforms, not the options, because all the options are the same unless the platform has restrictions. Which in this case the platforms indeed have restrictions, because power armour can hold 1, and a terminator can hold 2. The terminator has double the wounds and double the output and is double the cost. So why should you then pay more for the option when the only difference is the platform holding said option?

 

 

It's like saying we should actually pay extra points for our paragons and characters force weapons because they hit on 2+ when everything else hits on 3+.

Edited June 24, 2017 by Captain Coolpants

[Kenderleech]

how about "grey knight units gain the 'Ordo Malleus' keyword."  its a minor thing, but if im going to be a chamber militant, can i declare my militancy directly? 

[Trevak Dal]

Shouldn't GKTs who are troops in a super elite army be outperformed in every way by an elite unit of Paladins?

 

Like, Crisis suits are better than Firewarriors. Khorne Berserkers are better than Csms (makes my heart sing to be able to write that), what gives?

[Aethernitas]

Shouldn't GKTs who are troops in a super elite army be outperformed in every way by an elite unit of Paladins?

 

Like, Crisis suits are better than Firewarriors. Khorne Berserkers are better than Csms (makes my heart sing to be able to write that), what gives?

The point is that Paladins feel like they are more than worth the 9 points premium over the Terminators. On paper it's only +1A, +1W and +1LD but when you go more into detail there are some hidden advantages that make the 9 points feel even more worth it. For one you get the Paragon who hits on 2+, then there is the fact that 3 wounds is a important step up from 2 wounds considering all the 1d3 and 2 damage weapons, the Apothecary has a higher chance of healing a Paladin before he's actually killed and ressurecting a Paladin also produces higher value. Last but not least there is also the ability to take two special weapons. I for one think that beeing 9 points cheaper and beeing troops is a pretty fair trade-off for our Terminators compared to Paladins but it seems the general consensus disagrees.

[Waking Dreamer]

 

Shouldn't GKTs who are troops in a super elite army be outperformed in every way by an elite unit of Paladins?

Like, Crisis suits are better than Firewarriors. Khorne Berserkers are better than Csms (makes my heart sing to be able to write that), what gives?

 

The point is that Paladins feel like they are more than worth the 9 points premium over the Terminators. On paper it's only +1A, +1W and +1LD but when you go more into detail there are some hidden advantages that make the 9 points feel even more worth it. For one you get the Paragon who hits on 2+, then there is the fact that 3 wounds is a important step up from 2 wounds considering all the 1d3 and 2 damage weapons, the Apothecary has a higher chance of healing a Paladin before he's actually killed and ressurecting a Paladin also produces higher value. Last but not least there is also the ability to take two special weapons. I for one think that beeing 9 points cheaper and beeing troops is a pretty fair trade-off for our Terminators compared to Paladins but it seems the general consensus disagrees.

12 GKTs cost just over 10 Paladins. But what you're getting is -6W, -4A, -1Ld, -1WS for 2 models (Paragons). If you're going to invest in heavy TDA the better points for your army is clearly in Paladins. Games workshop will definitely consider about this "internal balance" and their most straight forward option is to make Paladins more expensive or GKTs cheaper. I'm thinking it's probably the former, which ironically will make our army weaker than now. Another option is a psychic Power or rule (e.g. something like obsec. troops) specifically for GKTs that give them a utility inaccessible for our Paladins. That's if they decide to do anything which they might not either.

[Adeptus]

 

 

Shouldn't GKTs who are troops in a super elite army be outperformed in every way by an elite unit of Paladins?

Like, Crisis suits are better than Firewarriors. Khorne Berserkers are better than Csms (makes my heart sing to be able to write that), what gives?

 

The point is that Paladins feel like they are more than worth the 9 points premium over the Terminators. On paper it's only +1A, +1W and +1LD but when you go more into detail there are some hidden advantages that make the 9 points feel even more worth it. For one you get the Paragon who hits on 2+, then there is the fact that 3 wounds is a important step up from 2 wounds considering all the 1d3 and 2 damage weapons, the Apothecary has a higher chance of healing a Paladin before he's actually killed and ressurecting a Paladin also produces higher value. Last but not least there is also the ability to take two special weapons. I for one think that beeing 9 points cheaper and beeing troops is a pretty fair trade-off for our Terminators compared to Paladins but it seems the general consensus disagrees.

12 GKTs cost just over 10 Paladins. But what you're getting is -6W, -4A, -1Ld, -1WS for 2 models (Paragons). If you're going to invest in heavy TDA the better points for your army is clearly in Paladins. Games workshop will definitely consider about this "internal balance" and their most straight forward option is to make Paladins more expensive or GKTs cheaper. I'm thinking it's probably the former, which ironically will make our army weaker than now. Another option is a psychic Power or rule (e.g. something like obsec. troops) specifically for GKTs that give them a utility inaccessible for our Paladins. That's if they decide to do anything which they might not either.

Terminators also go a long way to unlocking the extra command points in the Battalion and Brigade detachments.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

 

Terminators also go a long way to unlocking the extra command points in the Battalion and Brigade detachments. 

 

 

Strikes are better at that though, and I'd argue more cost effective in this edition. I think Terminators are overpriced by about 6 points per model. 

[Myunch]

 

 

Terminators also go a long way to unlocking the extra command points in the Battalion and Brigade detachments.

 

 

Strikes are better at that though, and I'd argue more cost effective in this edition. I think Terminators are overpriced by about 6 points per model.

Agreed, 46 points a model is definitely overpriced when compared to 55 point Paladins. I pray they don't bump the Paladin cost up.

[Adeptus]

 

 

 

Terminators also go a long way to unlocking the extra command points in the Battalion and Brigade detachments.

 

 

Strikes are better at that though, and I'd argue more cost effective in this edition. I think Terminators are overpriced by about 6 points per model.

Agreed, 46 points a model is definitely overpriced when compared to 55 point Paladins. I pray they don't bump the Paladin cost up.

The more important comparison is to strikes, not paladins. Although in this new post 7th world, theres no reason we couldn't just take six cheap scout squads to unlock a Brigade detachment

[Seizeman]

The difficulty in unlocking brigade is having enough HQs. And I think that's the biggest problem with our army. There's no good reason to take an HQ past the first Grand master, as they give nothing to the army. You can only cast a power of each, so their psychic potential is wasted  and they have no auras to take advantage. So they are reduced to killy melee units, and they are awfully inefficient at that. Why take an extra GM or librarian when you can take 3 paladins for the same price?

 

They should give our HQs different auras. Reroll 1s to wound on the brotherhood champion would be nice and flavorful, and librarian should give some kind of reroll to cast psychic powers (although he needs acess to more powers to be good anyway. They could also make the apothecary or ancient into HQ, but the ancient needs to be able to pick nemesis weapons or be reduced in price by a lot anyway.

[Rurik the blessed]

 

another point is CP... as an elite army our units are too quite expensive si there's no way we can have a brigade detachment under 2.5k points. at most we can get 4 or 5 cp in 2k setup.

 

so one way to fix this problem is to give our HQ. some CP bonus like guilli.

[Seizeman]

Well, if we had another good HQ you can easily fill a battalion, which is good enough. It is fine that we don't get tons of CP, remember that we get compensated by having the first turn, so really giving our HQ extra CP would be overkill.

 

Honestly, if they fixed our characters, It would be sufficient. I think the rest of the army is fine, maybe a bit fravorless (as every army without a codex), but well balanced overall.

[Adeptus]

You don't like brother captains?

[Seizeman]

You will never take a brother captain over a GM, because rerolls are inifnitely better than double range on smite. Once you have a GM, my previous statement is still valid, you are paying the price of 3 Paladins for a guy who's inferior to two paladins. Paying 50 points for his aura is beyond ridiculous, specially when it isn't really very good, as you are going to be at 12 inches most of the time and you can only cast smite on the nearest enemy anyway.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

It's not always about maximal point efficiency though. A Brother-Captain wields a hammer a lot more effectively, has character immunity against ranged fire provided you screen him, and he also has an Iron Halo. Psychic Focus is fine, it gives him a role that matters and you pay HQ taxes to unlock the better detachments anyway. His synergy is fine, its just not as amazing as the GM. Our Librarian could use an aura though, he's currently pretty useless. Brotherhood Champion should get back Herald of Titan as an aura ability, would be very attractive as a cheap HQ to buff our melee prowess (which is one of the strengths of the army in 8th). 

 

There is no getting around multiple HQ's unless you only play one of the weaker detachments and struggle along with 4 Command Points, facing armies with 9 or 12. Stratagems can be pretty key, they're not enough to make bad armies or units good, but they make clutch rolls quite important. Also fighting first in melee during the enemy turn is a big deal, if they can't pull the same Strategem because they're out of Command Points.

[Gentlemanloser]

9 or 12CP?

 

That's 2 or 3 full battalions.

 

Who's gonna run that?

[Seizeman]

Imperial guard can get that amount pretty easily. In fact it is really hard to not fill a battalion with IG. You are going to play more than 3 hq just with the company commanders (probably more like 6HQs), you fill the troops with regular guard, the elite slot fills itself just with the comissars but there's a lot more choices you are going to play. For the fast attack, you are mostly limited to rough riders and hellhounds (sentinels are kind of ok too), and both are pretty good and cheap. There's no need to talk about the havy choices, of course.

 

About grey knights, we are stuck with 4 CP. There's no way to justify destroying your list just to fit the detachment's criteria. There's no point in having rerolls by weakening your army. In the games I played, I did not really need more than 4, as usually you only need one counter-offensive and one or two rerolls on charges/GoI. Of course, I think having just a couple more would be great, but past the first 6 CP, you get diminishing returns and they get a lot less valuable.

[Beams]

9 or 12CP?

 

That's 2 or 3 full battalions.

 

Who's gonna run that?

Guards cheapest brigade is 638 pts, and is actually ok.

 

3 company commanders

6 squads of infantry

3 sniper squads

3 scout sentinels with multilasers

3x3 mortar teams.

 

So, change the sentinels to lascannons for an additional 30 pts total, and it's a pretty ok base.

 

And that player now has 12 command points, plus 1314 pts.

 

So, you could easily double that and end up with 21 command points, leaving 628 pts, add in a supreme command detachment (90 pts) for more orders for your mortars and +1 command point, then use the rest of your points to purchase 3(I'm pretty sure) Vultures, I believe.

 

Maybe not the best list, but not horrible, and you will never run out of command points.

 

That said, Grey Knights don't have as many command points because their guys are better. Guard doesn't really have much worth spending them on, so they can afford to be given more, weirdly enough.

[Everon]

For any one who hasn't seen it yet, faqs are out.

 

And yes, all your questions were ignored other than. "Range purifiers can smite when within psychic locus" which we know is 6"

 

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/07/02/warhammer-40000-faq-now-available-july2gw-homepage-post-1/

Edited July 2, 2017 by Everon

[Aethernitas]

And Acolytes are on one wound now. Thats pretty bad :\

[Holier Than Thou]

For any one who hasn't seen it yet, faqs are out.

And yes, all your questions were ignored other than. "Range purifiers can smite when within psychic locus" which we know is 6"

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/07/02/warhammer-40000-faq-now-available-july2gw-homepage-post-1/

Unbelievable. Our Terminators are still lower leadership than everyone else's. Maybe fighting Daemons isn't as scary as we thought.

[Adeptus]

Lame.

 

And pretty lame that Acolytes are now 1 wound.

[thraxdown]

Maybe one of you can answer or maybe GW should clarify, but I couldn't find it anywhere: Do our interceptors count as jump infantry?  I couldn't find the keyword in their datasheet, and if they don't that means we can transport them like we do regular infantry?

[Valerian]

Yeah, they're just regular Infantry with a special ability now.  

I do like the idea of Interceptors in those Razorbacks, by the way.  

[Soder]

Wow I never noticed that. I just assumed they were still jump like they used to be. Seems the only question now is if you're willing to pay the 20 extra points/5 man squad for the shunt. Think it was an oversight? Edited July 2, 2017 by Soder