Ferrus Manus: Gorgon of Medusa

[Lord_Caerolion]

Yes, but that's Curze in his "I can see everything" levels of foresight. Not exactly in line with how he's been portrayed in every other example of the character.

[bluntblade]

I've seen that grumbled at quite a bit. Sanguinius and Angron are more consistently mentioned as nightmare melee opponents.

[Mellow]

Yes, but that's Curze in his "I can see everything" levels of foresight. Not exactly in line with how he's been portrayed in every other example of the character.

I would agree with you but The Lion gave him a ruddy good kicking and he’s not psychic at all! I’m personally tempted to put The Lion above the crying girl of a demigod man Sanguinius.

[bluntblade]

I must admit, I've never got the notion of ragging on a character rather than the author who may have fumbled them.

[Lord_Caerolion]

 

Yes, but that's Curze in his "I can see everything" levels of foresight. Not exactly in line with how he's been portrayed in every other example of the character.

I would agree with you but The Lion gave him a ruddy good kicking and he’s not psychic at all! I’m personally tempted to put The Lion above the crying girl of a demigod man Sanguinius.

 

 

Because the Night Haunter has always been portrayed as only being able to see the future when wracked by incredibly painful seizures. It's not supposed to be the sort of foresight that allows you to win fights, but rather the "foreboding visions of futures yet to come" sort of seeing the future. It's only in the Unremembered Empire arc that he suddenly loses all the downsides to his psychic ability, and is able to foresee blow-by-blow accounts of a duel as he's fighting it, allowing him to fight Sanguinius. Basically, that's not meant to be how he works. 

So yeah, they changed a fundamental aspect of his character to allow for the Sanguinius/Curze fight to go the way it did. I think we can safely disregard it in terms of the wider canon.

[b1soul]

@ Mellow

 

"the crying girl of a demigod man Sanguinius"

 

Unfortunately, that's how Sang is often portrayed. The most emotionally sensitive, bleeding-heart, dye his hair black primarch

[bluntblade]

The dyed hair is at least followed by xenos-stomping.

[b1soul]

It's no surprise Curze thinks that he outmatches sensitive Sang

 

[Curze] flicked dried blood from under a dirty nail. ‘You and Guilliman speak so often of logic, so let us consider the evidence. In skill at arms, I outmatch you. I always have. I outmatch most of you. I am armoured, you are not. Your blade is of simple steel and energy, I have my claws.’

 

When I read BL's portrayal of Sang, I feel like Tom Green in Road Trip

 

https://youtu.be/CsKGARnF9wI

[karden00]

Source please, where is it stated unequivocally that Vulkan, The Big E’s BBC, takes it EZ?

On his bros?

[karden00]

Also, this.

I am fully willing to own a lot of derision and skepticism for the following musing but....

One of my very first posts on the B&C was how I thought Guilliman could conceivably, convincingly, conclusively win against Angron.

I stressed that for it to happen, Guilliman could not play Angrons game and fight him like a gladiator.

Instead, Guilliman must analyze his foes strengths and weaknesses (something Roby G is undisputedlty good at) and then act accordingly. I compared such a match to the time Indiana Jones met the scimitar bearing Arab/Ottoman fellow and decided to, rather than fight by his rules and almost assuredly lose, just shoot him in the head.

We can debate until the cows come home whether or not a sidearm can meaningfully harm a primarch, but it seems to me a fair analogy of how a Guilliman would approach an Angron.

[b1soul]

Y'know...why can't a primarch-grade sidearm harm a primarch? Especially when primarchs seem to like fighting without helms

[Slan Drakkos]

Source please, where is it stated unequivocally that Vulkan, The Big E’s BBC, takes it EZ?

On his bros?

it's in the first or third fight that Vulkan has with Curze in Vulkan Lives. He says something to the effect of "now that you're a traitor, I don't have to hold back on you". Pretty sure it was right before he beat the brakes off of Curze with his bare hands.

[Marshal Rohr]

Vulkan specifically says he always held back on his bros because he didn’t wanna hurt them.

[Mellow]

That could be conceived as bragging. Something that Primarchs are famous for. Are we to believe it when Vulkan says so because he’s always been shown to be the most decent fellow of the lot?

 

I think he’s great personally and whilst I’m not 100% I do think he’s the strongest for brute strength but probably not the best fighter so he would struggle against some of his brothers.

[Indefragable]

Also, this.

I am fully willing to own a lot of derision and skepticism for the following musing but....

One of my very first posts on the B&C was how I thought Guilliman could conceivably, convincingly, conclusively win against Angron.

I stressed that for it to happen, Guilliman could not play Angrons game and fight him like a gladiator.

Instead, Guilliman must analyze his foes strengths and weaknesses (something Roby G is undisputedlty good at) and then act accordingly. I compared such a match to the time Indiana Jones met the scimitar bearing Arab/Ottoman fellow and decided to, rather than fight by his rules and almost assuredly lose, just shoot him in the head.

We can debate until the cows come home whether or not a sidearm can meaningfully harm a primarch, but it seems to me a fair analogy of how a Guilliman would approach an Angron.

 

...except RG...didn't? For all his ability to do what you mention above, he decided not to and instead went punch-for-punch in melee, something someone as "wise" as RG should decidedly have not done. But it's probably b/c his entire presence there was throw strategy to the wind in favor an emotional "why?" moment. As much as I :cuss dislike RG with a fiery passion, it's that very aspect that makes me like him a bit.

 

Anyways, since Primarch pissing matches are sort of the Godwin's Law of 40k, I think it's fair to say that whoever is writing the tale can essentially depict power levels however they want, so everything should be taken with a grain of salt. Likewise, just like on the tabletop, I would imagine Primarch vs Primarch battles would more often than not be a matter of margins, with no one escaping unharmed or not panting from exertion. Even if you took the debatably "weakest" duelists such as Lorgar and/or Alpharius and put them up against the slightly less debatably "strongest" duelist such as Angron/Horus/Russ/Sanguinius/Vulkan/Ferrus/Fulgrim/Khan/Spongebob, I have trouble seeing anyone escaping completely unscathed (assuming all things being equal and its a fair, unadulterated 1:1 fight).

 

I think Khan vs Mortarion and the Lion going 4 rounds with Curze are better indicators of what a "typical" Primarch fight would look like. Our views are distorted b/c the most famous (and first widely known) battles have been the anomalies: Fulgrim vs Ferrus, (up-daemoned) Horus vs Sanguinius.

[Slan Drakkos]

That could be conceived as bragging. Something that Primarchs are famous for. Are we to believe it when Vulkan says so because he’s always been shown to be the most decent fellow of the lot?

I think he’s great personally and whilst I’m not 100% I do think he’s the strongest for brute strength but probably not the best fighter so he would struggle against some of his brothers.

when he says that he's always held back immediately before making a fully armed and armored Konrad Curze choke on his own teeth by using his unarmored fists to pummel him? Yes, we should believe him. He's not Fulgrim you know. Vulkan has literally always been the most humble of his brothers; the emperor even said so. So why would he possibly brag about something that either isn't true or that he can't back up?

 

I can believe that he's not the best fighter. He's probably in the middle as far as skill goes, but his durability, strength, and superior wargear would give him the win against the vast majority of his brothers IMO.

Also, this.

I am fully willing to own a lot of derision and skepticism for the following musing but....

One of my very first posts on the B&C was how I thought Guilliman could conceivably, convincingly, conclusively win against Angron.

I stressed that for it to happen, Guilliman could not play Angrons game and fight him like a gladiator.

Instead, Guilliman must analyze his foes strengths and weaknesses (something Roby G is undisputedlty good at) and then act accordingly. I compared such a match to the time Indiana Jones met the scimitar bearing Arab/Ottoman fellow and decided to, rather than fight by his rules and almost assuredly lose, just shoot him in the head.

We can debate until the cows come home whether or not a sidearm can meaningfully harm a primarch, but it seems to me a fair analogy of how a Guilliman would approach an Angron.

this......just isn't right.

 

1. He'd first need to get past/through Angrons Iron Halo.

 

2. The way you describe it makes it sound like Angron can't dodge the bolt rounds. All of the primarch are significantly faster that the projectiles that you seem to believe can be the end of Angron.

 

3. Robute isn't Indiana Jones. He (like most primarchs) doesn't let practicality outweigh honor. His motto is literally "Courage and Honor", not "Courage and Practicality". He could've launched missiles on Angron and Lorgar when he got to Nuceria, but he didn't, he went for fighting them man to man. He could've tried to shoot Lorgar during their fight, but he didn't. He could've teleported a bomb onto Fulgrim's ship, teleported back to his own ship, and watched it blow up from a distance, but he instead chose to confront Fulgrim. He's not the cynical Perturabo who doesn't believe in the merit of close combat. He's not the stealthy Corvus Corax that doesn't see the point in letting an enemy have a chance to get close. He's not the tricky Alpharius that never lets an opponent fight you on their terms. He's Guilliman and the way that you describe him possibly winning a fight is literally anathema to how he's always been portrayed.....

[Mellow]

Wait ... Lorgar isn’t weak. I seem to remember a scene where he is literally fuming at he jumps across a table and has Fulgrim at the end of his weapon before anyone can react.

 

As for Alpharius ... well. He’s about as good in combat as Ferrus.

[Slan Drakkos]

Wait ... Lorgar isn’t weak. I seem to remember a scene where he is literally fuming at he jumps across a table and has Fulgrim at the end of his weapon before anyone can react.

As for Alpharius ... well. He’s about as good in combat as Ferrus.

getting off a sucker punch during a meeting doesn't count as being strong. Also, nobody reacted because nobody knew how to react to him at that moment. They just won a decisive victory and all of a suddenly in the middle of Horus showing his Microstoft PowerPoint presentation of how they'll win, Lorgar jumps accross a table and attacks Fulgrim without any provocation. That isn't strength, that the element of surprise.

 

He's of the weakest duelists of his brothers because of how easily he got wrecked by Corax. That's not to say that he's physically the weakest, but he's lower than most of them.

Edited July 24, 2018 by Slan Drakkos

[Indefragable]

Wait ... Lorgar isn’t weak. I seem to remember a scene where he is literally fuming at he jumps across a table and has Fulgrim at the end of his weapon before anyone can react.

 

As for Alpharius ... well. He’s about as good in combat as Ferrus.

 

 

 

 

 

Even if you took the debatably "weakest" duelists such as Lorgar and/or Alpharius and put them up against the slightly less debatably "strongest" duelist such as Angron/Horus/Russ/Sanguinius/Vulkan/Ferrus/Fulgrim/Khan/Spongebob, I have trouble seeing anyone escaping completely unscathed (assuming all things being equal and its a fair, unadulterated 1:1 fight).

 

 

 

Emphasis added.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Guys, theres literally no conclusive answer. Corax mucked lorgar, thinks he could have gone 2 for 1 with curze there, thinks there a chance he could trade for angron and has claimed to have beaten Horus in sparring. He loses big to "new men" two shorts later.

 

Lorgar gets stomped by corax, then slams angraath and holds his own vs RG.

 

It's all circumstantial, nothings set in stone and all have strengths and weaknesses. Some might be better duelists like fulgrim or jaghatai while others are better with conviction like curze and lorgar. Remember in black legion when khayon is thinking about abbadon and sparring? He wasn't great in the cage, but he was matchless at war

[b1soul]

Lorgar's combat prowess goes up siginificantly when he eradicates his self-doubt

 

It's basically the difference between the FW rules for Lorgar and Lorgar Transfigured

[TheRealMcCagh]

Corax most certainly doesn't think he could trade for Angron. He says he doesn't stand a chance against Angron, only Sanguinius and Horus do.

 

'He would have to face Angron, and he knew he would fall to the World Eater. There was not another primarch that could best him in single combat, save perhaps Horus, and maybe Sanguinius. Corax was an immortal Lord of battle, but Angron was war incarnate.'

Edited July 25, 2018 by TheRealMcCagh

[mc warhammer]

i still like to think that despite his personal opinion, corax still had a chance. however great or slim that chance depends on the circumstances

 

based on opinion alone, dorn thinks he can slap angron about like a rag doll

[Mellow]

I think everyone’s opinion of Dorn went up after he chopped that guys hands off! Lol

[WarriorFish]

This is about the Ferrus book, please stay on topic. Thanks.