Ferrus Manus: Gorgon of Medusa

[Machine God]

So

if he preferred to fight in the frontlines in the thick of the fray, that to me would invalidate him a prime contender for the position. If your Warmaster is taking that kind of risks it's very likely that he could eventually be killed in the field of battle like it eventually happened.

.

Indeed, although no-one knew about daemon swords at this point.

Whilst he can do the Master Tactician thing it just isn't his thing. He reckoned that the choices were either Horus or Sanguinas for the job, but he tried anyway. He's too headstrong really for the job, he's a bruiser and it takes an assassination attempt under a surrender to trigger him from RG to Hulk Smash.

This outcome is probably why the Emperor didn't choose him anyway.

As a Primarch Ferrus Mannus loves the fights were he could be beaten and relishes his memory of the Emperor as the only person up to that date as of doing so.

 

Edit: Added to spoiler.

Edited February 11, 2018 by Machine God

[RedFurioso]

 

He knows that someone will be appointed

 

I don't understand why these rumors get started. Compliance of Gardinaal was many years before Ullanor, right? Everyone was shocked by Emperor's decision to return to Terra.

[Marshal Loss]

So

if he preferred to fight in the frontlines in the thick of the fray, that to me would invalidate him a prime contender for the position. If your Warmaster is taking that kind of risks it's very likely that he could eventually be killed in the field of battle like it eventually happened.

.

 

While you're right that a Warmaster is expected to keep themselves out of the line of fire, that wouldn't have been what invalidated him as a candidate in the Emperor's eyes. Prior to his appointment as Warmaster, Horus fought all the time  - not being able to fight with his troops, as Warmaster, was one of the things he bemoans in the opening trilogy - and Vengeful Spirit/the FW books note that when the Heresy starts, he reverses this trend and starts fighting in the thick of it again. I suppose virtually all of the Primarchs fought in the thick of it really, so it was bound to be a reversal for whoever was appointed.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Yeah, Games Workshop doesn't really comprehend the idea of commanders not being on the front lines, preferably leading the vanguard. I think the Imperial Guard are the only faction that really do it, and even then it depends on the regiment. Catachan ain't gonna back down from no fight. 12ft tall Daemon Prince? Pssh, they were wrestling bigger critters back home before they were 10 years old! And Krieg commanders? They may be artillery regiments, but someone has to lead the breacher teams, and being hit by your own artillery just shows that your faith in the Emperor was lacking, or was intentionally called in, because those Chaos Marines may be bigger, stronger, tougher, better armoured and with guns the size of your torso, but even they struggle to win a fistfight against artillery shells.

[b1soul]

Is Guymer's prose at leat somewhat comparable to guys like Wraight, ADB, French

[Gaugamela]

Yeah, Games Workshop doesn't really comprehend the idea of commanders not being on the front lines, preferably leading the vanguard. I think the Imperial Guard are the only faction that really do it, and even then it depends on the regiment. Catachan ain't gonna back down from no fight. 12ft tall Daemon Prince? Pssh, they were wrestling bigger critters back home before they were 10 years old! And Krieg commanders? They may be artillery regiments, but someone has to lead the breacher teams, and being hit by your own artillery just shows that your faith in the Emperor was lacking, or was intentionally called in, because those Chaos Marines may be bigger, stronger, tougher, better armoured and with guns the size of your torso, but even they struggle to win a fistfight against artillery shells.

 

I understand that the Primarchs are completely over the top and thus they fight in the front lines, but not all commanders should be like this. That's one of the few things that I actually like in Guilliman. He only does it when he really has to.

[Toothbrush of Terra]

Is Guymer's prose at leat somewhat comparable to guys like Wraight, ADB, French

 

I'd say, yeah. I had no problems with the prose pretty much whatsoever.

[Lord_Caerolion]

 

Yeah, Games Workshop doesn't really comprehend the idea of commanders not being on the front lines, preferably leading the vanguard. I think the Imperial Guard are the only faction that really do it, and even then it depends on the regiment. Catachan ain't gonna back down from no fight. 12ft tall Daemon Prince? Pssh, they were wrestling bigger critters back home before they were 10 years old! And Krieg commanders? They may be artillery regiments, but someone has to lead the breacher teams, and being hit by your own artillery just shows that your faith in the Emperor was lacking, or was intentionally called in, because those Chaos Marines may be bigger, stronger, tougher, better armoured and with guns the size of your torso, but even they struggle to win a fistfight against artillery shells.

 

I understand that the Primarchs are completely over the top and thus they fight in the front lines, but not all commanders should be like this. That's one of the few things that I actually like in Guilliman. He only does it when he really has to.

 

 

That was my point...

[Indefragable]

Yeah, Games Workshop doesn't really comprehend the idea of commanders not being on the front lines, preferably leading the vanguard. I think the Imperial Guard are the only faction that really do it, and even then it depends on the regiment. Catachan ain't gonna back down from no fight. 12ft tall Daemon Prince? Pssh, they were wrestling bigger critters back home before they were 10 years old! And Krieg commanders? They may be artillery regiments, but someone has to lead the breacher teams, and being hit by your own artillery just shows that your faith in the Emperor was lacking, or was intentionally called in, because those Chaos Marines may be bigger, stronger, tougher, better armoured and with guns the size of your torso, but even they struggle to win a fistfight against artillery shells.

“Listen up, men! I will now demonstrate the proper technique of clearing a minefield with your own two feet!”

[Phoebus]

 

 

Yeah, Games Workshop doesn't really comprehend the idea of commanders not being on the front lines, preferably leading the vanguard. I think the Imperial Guard are the only faction that really do it, and even then it depends on the regiment. Catachan ain't gonna back down from no fight. 12ft tall Daemon Prince? Pssh, they were wrestling bigger critters back home before they were 10 years old! And Krieg commanders? They may be artillery regiments, but someone has to lead the breacher teams, and being hit by your own artillery just shows that your faith in the Emperor was lacking, or was intentionally called in, because those Chaos Marines may be bigger, stronger, tougher, better armoured and with guns the size of your torso, but even they struggle to win a fistfight against artillery shells.

I understand that the Primarchs are completely over the top and thus they fight in the front lines, but not all commanders should be like this. That's one of the few things that I actually like in Guilliman. He only does it when he really has to.

This is a tricky topic. Throughout the history of warfare we've seen an ongoing balancing act between the needs of command and the pressures of warrior culture. In archaic armies, it was expected for officers (Macedonian decarchs, Roman centurions, etc.) to fight at the front. Until the Roman armies evolved into highly-structured entities, commanders were expected to be found with the decisive arm (generally the elite of the infantry or the cavalry). Even afterwards, though, we see how there was a back-and-forth, wherein "heroic" kings and generals would get involved in actual close combat while more cerebral counterparts would (conditions permitting) direct a battle from afar. As recently as World War 2, battalion and regiment/brigade commanders could expect to find themselves in the thick of fighting. Technology has obviously changed the modern battlefield, though, and it's incredibly unlikely that the commander of a NATO brigade will find himself facing small arms fire any time soon.

 

The thing about the Imperium of Man, though, is that it isn't a sane place. It's a dystopian society on a constant war footing. Its not just a matter of its warrior culture being more pervasive and prevalent. Its entire mentality is, in many ways, removed from reality. Its warfighting is informed at least as much by religious fanaticism as it is by hard data. That, in turn, means that the Astra Militarum will produce leaders who believe their place is at the front - at least up to the Regimental or Brigade level. They'll be combat-hardened zealots for whom individual lives mean very little. These commanders may not be the greatest tacticians, and in fact it can be argued that the Imperium of Man doesn't value tactics as much as it does strategy*.

 

And that's just the Imperial Guard. When we're talking about Space Marines we're getting into extreme meritocratic concepts espoused by transhumans whose minds and cognitive abilities have been conditioned and enhanced for combat, making them generally fearless and selfless when it comes to mission accomplishment. That, coupled with the reality of the small strike forces they are divided into means Space Marine commanders will naturally fight from the fore.

 

When we get into the Great Crusade, we have to remember that Primarchs are essentially super-genius demigods. They fight at front line because they recognize the psychological impact doing so has on the warriors their society produces. They can do so without compromising their ability to command thanks to their ability to process incredible amounts of data in real time, and to technology that allows them to communicate their decisions and intent no matter where they are (usually).

 

* Tactics, in layman's terms, is how you win battles. Strategy is how you win wars. The Imperium is ultimately not worried about how costly a battle may be, so long as it is won and the cost involved doesn't impact its ability to win the war.

Edited February 17, 2018 by Phoebus

[mc warhammer]

is there a marked difference in the imperium’s attitude toward war pre and post heresy? aside from primarchs and legions as opposed to chapters...is one more or less sane than the other?

[Phoebus]

Short answer: I think the Imperium of Man was institutionally crazy post-Heresy.

 

Longer answer:

 

At the onset of the Great Crusade, the Emperor had incorporated the armies of a number of dystopian societies ranging from Terran techno-barbarians to highly-disciplined Saturnine fleets. There was a hodge-podge of forces with different cultural backgrounds, mentalities, and levels of technology. My head-canon leans toward the Emperor basically trying to make lemonade out of so many lemons. There seems to have been a desire for efficiency (however brutal), though, and there certainly doesn't seem to have been any resistance toward subordinates doing things that made sense to them. Perturabo, for example, decimated and sacrificed his Iron Warriors like so many pawns because that was his thing. It’s not like the Emperor told him he had to subscribe to meat-grinder tactics. By contrast, Dorn used that same free reign to be ruthlessly pragmatic but also far more careful with his sons; Guilliman was allowed to build a relative utopia.

 

The Imperium that emerges post-Heresy has gazed into the abyss and has decided that no cost is too great for victory considering the foe. The "Great Men" are no longer the Emperor, the Sigillite, the Primarchs, or ruthless but ultimately pragmatic Lords Militant. The Imperium is no longer just using what's available to supplement the Emperor's elite in conquering the galaxy. Now, the leaders of the Imperium are paranoid, often insane individuals with serious agendas against one another. Dystopia isn't just maintained as the status quo; the people in charge likely don't consider there might be a better alternative. Humanity as the equivalent of ammunition is effectively doctrine.

Edited February 17, 2018 by Phoebus

[MrDarth151]

The Imperium that emerges post-Heresy has gazed into the abyss and has decided that no cost is too great for victory considering the foe. The "Great Men" are no longer the Emperor, the Sigillite, the Primarchs, or ruthless but ultimately pragmatic Lords Militant. The Imperium is no longer just using what's available to supplement the Emperor's elite in conquering the galaxy. Now, the leaders of the Imperium are paranoid, often insane individuals with serious agendas against one another. Dystopia isn't just maintained as the status quo; the people in charge likely don't consider there might be a better alternative. Humanity as the equivalent of ammunition is effectively doctrine.

 

I've always disliked that, to be honest. If stupidity is so common in the Imperium of Mankind, it would not have survived a few decades, much less ten millennia.

[Roomsky]

 

I've always disliked that, to be honest. If stupidity is so common in the Imperium of Mankind, it would not have survived a few decades, much less ten millennia.

 

 

You are, of course, entitled to like and dislike what you will.

 

That said, very little about the setting makes sense, everything from the design of institutions to the questionable application of physics would destroy an IRL Imperium over the course of a few decades. Dismissing some madness but not all of it never struck me as much more than arbitrary.

[MrDarth151]

 

 

I've always disliked that, to be honest. If stupidity is so common in the Imperium of Mankind, it would not have survived a few decades, much less ten millennia.

 

 

You are, of course, entitled to like and dislike what you will.

 

That said, very little about the setting makes sense, everything from the design of institutions to the questionable application of physics would destroy an IRL Imperium over the course of a few decades. Dismissing some madness but not all of it never struck me as much more than arbitrary.

 

 

Honestly? I find myself having less problem with physics breaking stuff, for example, than I do with practical everyday consequences of running an empire.

 

Physics breaking is just bread and butter for any Sci-fi universe, but as I get older, the fact that people charge of the Imperium are transcendental geniuses except for the times we actually see them work starts to grind my gears a bit. 

 

Especially since it must be a conscious decision on part of the writers and editors. Internet made finding this stuff stupid easy. Like, you are literally three clicks away of having access to detailed military manuals, philosophy concerning authoritarianism and utilitarianism, and everything else a writer might to portray this stuff with a degree of realism.

 

You don't need to even portray Imperium as universally competent, just... not stupid.

 

This plagues even good writers. I remember reading Emperor's Legion, which on the whole I enjoyed, but even then, there are things like "Recruiting million soldiers from the population of quadrillions to defend what is probably second most important world in the entire Imperium, over the course of a decade is considered an impressive achievement" and I'm just screaming "You cannot be serious!" at the book, because somehow civilisation dedicated to war longer than recorded human history at this point in time is literal millions of times less effective than WWII Germany at recruitment.

 

I would call it a parody, were it not played completely straight.

Edited February 17, 2018 by MrDarth151

[mc warhammer]

 

I would call it a parody, were it not played completely straight.

 

 

which is the foundation of the 40k universe, yeah? parody. and parody can certainly be played straight.

 

isn't the reader supposed to read it an think "how stupid/ignorant/wasteful"?

 

now that 40k has moved away from the ott nuttiness of its satirical roots...it does present a challenge for the writers to make irl sense of it in the more sombre modern interpretation.  and its an ongoing process, and obviously not a perfect one. i sometimes think about how some planets were originally stand-ins for countries ...that concept is a little awkward and ungainly these days. though authors have made attempts to introduce some variance and diversity of late into worlds, we're still left with certain ideas (right or wrong) like fenris being an entire world of vikings.

 

but does that buzz my kill? not really.

 

pull at the thread of most modern fictional universes and they unravel fast (the marvel or dc universes make zero sense). most of their audiences can see the thread, the writers can too. just nobody wants to give it a tug.

 

it's a suspension of disbelief thang.

 

or maybe....just maybe part of the appeal of 40k is the over-the-top crazy.  i don't really understand why anyone would want to take the 40k out of 40k.

Edited February 18, 2018 by mc warhammer

[Roomsky]

 

 

 

I've always disliked that, to be honest. If stupidity is so common in the Imperium of Mankind, it would not have survived a few decades, much less ten millennia.

 

 

You are, of course, entitled to like and dislike what you will.

 

That said, very little about the setting makes sense, everything from the design of institutions to the questionable application of physics would destroy an IRL Imperium over the course of a few decades. Dismissing some madness but not all of it never struck me as much more than arbitrary.

 

 

Honestly? I find myself having less problem with physics breaking stuff, for example, than I do with practical everyday consequences of running an empire.

 

Physics breaking is just bread and butter for any Sci-fi universe, but as I get older, the fact that people charge of the Imperium are transcendental geniuses except for the times we actually see them work starts to grind my gears a bit. 

 

Especially since it must be a conscious decision on part of the writers and editors. Internet made finding this stuff stupid easy. Like, you are literally three clicks away of having access to detailed military manuals, philosophy concerning authoritarianism and utilitarianism, and everything else a writer might to portray this stuff with a degree of realism.

 

You don't need to even portray Imperium as universally competent, just... not stupid.

 

This plagues even good writers. I remember reading Emperor's Legion, which on the whole I enjoyed, but even then, there are things like "Recruiting million soldiers from the population of quadrillions to defend what is probably second most important world in the entire Imperium, over the course of a decade is considered an impressive achievement" and I'm just screaming "You cannot be serious!" at the book, because somehow civilisation dedicated to war longer than recorded human history at this point in time is literal millions of times less effective than WWII Germany at recruitment.

 

I would call it a parody, were it not played completely straight.

 

 

I'd argue that even divorced from the physics of things, much of 40k's foundation is based on the logistically impossible. Hand-written messages on vellum being a form of record-keeping, for example. Alternatively, vague astropathic messages being used to communicate anything at all, the idea that FTL communication is based on the interpretation of dreams would have the entire Imperium self-destruct in a matter of months. Yet I would never argue against the removal of such facets, as every bit of lore jettisoned for lack of believability just brings the setting closer to a more poorly written version of Dune.

 

Back on topic, very excited for this book. Ferrus needs some love, and out of the presently active writers Guymer would have been my first choice anyway.

[MrDarth151]

 

 

I would call it a parody, were it not played completely straight.

 

 

which is the foundation of the 40k universe, yeah? parody. and parody can certainly be played straight.

 

isn't the reader supposed to read it an think "how stupid/ignorant/wasteful"?

 

now that 40k has moved away from the ott nuttiness of its satirical roots...it does present a challenge for the writers to make irl sense of it in the more sombre modern interpretation.  and its an ongoing process, and obviously not a perfect one. i sometimes think about how some planets were originally stand-ins for countries ...that concept is a little awkward and ungainly these days. though authors have made attempts to introduce some variance and diversity of late into worlds, we're still left with certain ideas (right or wrong) like fenris being an entire world of vikings.

 

but does that buzz my kill? not really.

 

pull at the thread of most modern fictional universes and they unravel fast (the marvel or dc universes make zero sense). most of their audiences can see the thread, the writers can too. just nobody wants to give it a tug.

 

it's a suspension of disbelief thang.

 

or maybe....just maybe part of the appeal of 40k is the over-the-top crazy.  i don't really understand why anyone would want to take the 40k out of 40k.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I've always disliked that, to be honest. If stupidity is so common in the Imperium of Mankind, it would not have survived a few decades, much less ten millennia.

 

 

You are, of course, entitled to like and dislike what you will.

 

That said, very little about the setting makes sense, everything from the design of institutions to the questionable application of physics would destroy an IRL Imperium over the course of a few decades. Dismissing some madness but not all of it never struck me as much more than arbitrary.

 

 

Honestly? I find myself having less problem with physics breaking stuff, for example, than I do with practical everyday consequences of running an empire.

 

Physics breaking is just bread and butter for any Sci-fi universe, but as I get older, the fact that people charge of the Imperium are transcendental geniuses except for the times we actually see them work starts to grind my gears a bit. 

 

Especially since it must be a conscious decision on part of the writers and editors. Internet made finding this stuff stupid easy. Like, you are literally three clicks away of having access to detailed military manuals, philosophy concerning authoritarianism and utilitarianism, and everything else a writer might to portray this stuff with a degree of realism.

 

You don't need to even portray Imperium as universally competent, just... not stupid.

 

This plagues even good writers. I remember reading Emperor's Legion, which on the whole I enjoyed, but even then, there are things like "Recruiting million soldiers from the population of quadrillions to defend what is probably second most important world in the entire Imperium, over the course of a decade is considered an impressive achievement" and I'm just screaming "You cannot be serious!" at the book, because somehow civilisation dedicated to war longer than recorded human history at this point in time is literal millions of times less effective than WWII Germany at recruitment.

 

I would call it a parody, were it not played completely straight.

 

 

I'd argue that even divorced from the physics of things, much of 40k's foundation is based on the logistically impossible. Hand-written messages on vellum being a form of record-keeping, for example. Alternatively, vague astropathic messages being used to communicate anything at all, the idea that FTL communication is based on the interpretation of dreams would have the entire Imperium self-destruct in a matter of months. Yet I would never argue against the removal of such facets, as every bit of lore jettisoned for lack of believability just brings the setting closer to a more poorly written version of Dune.

 

Back on topic, very excited for this book. Ferrus needs some love, and out of the presently active writers Guymer would have been my first choice anyway.

 

 

Can I not make a criticism without it being immediately straw manned into oblivion?

 

The point is not that I want all of the nonsense of 40k gone, the point is that there are elements of it that I could do without.

 

Chainswords, for example, don't really make sense as weapons. But they fit the aesthetic and have the very childlike quality of "This is so cool!" to them. So what's the harm?

 

All of the "Look, those people are so stupid it's a wonder they can breath properly" do nothing for me. They don't bring me enjoyment, and instead create cognitive dissonance, and break my willing suspension of disbelief.

 

I really don't enjoy people being stupid for stupidity sake, when by all evidence available, they should be geniuses. I don't like artificial problems that exist because the very obvious solution is ignored.

 

I believe it is possible to preserve thematic and aesthetic themes of 40k and eliminate most of blatantly stupid stuff, because most of blatantly stupid stuff serves little narrative purpose.

 

With that said, yes, this is off-topic and if you want to continue this discussion (which I am entirely willing to do), I propose we create a new topic for that purpose.

[WarriorFish]

Please stay on the subject of the Ferrus book. If you are openly talking about off topic then it really shouldn't need saying.

[Kais Klip]

Gentlemen, 

 

In the words of our Iron Lord, you shame us all. 

 

5 pages in with your roundabout, tangential blathering, and you all have failed to give the honour that is due to this book. 

 

I managed to get my hands on it via nefarious means, courtesy of our internet cousins. Rather fat gentlemen they are, I'd like to say. 

 

Let me preface to say that David Guymer is no one to me; I haven't seen his name on a book before, so when I picked it up I considered him a scrub. I will also say that much to my chagrin, BL material for the latter past of 2 3 years has been reduced to something I absentmindedly leaf through to catch snippets of interesting lore. Let me also say that this is a battle book. I hate battle books. 

 

This is the best book I've read in years. 

 

As a Warhammer book, this is good. As a piece of literary prose, this is even better. Never before have I been washed away like so in a rip-tide of page turners. Like the demi-man Guymer writes about, nothing is superfluous. Not a sub-plot, not a chapter, not even a paragraph.

 

Case in Point: One sub plot is Top Gun. I hate Top Gun sub-plots, indeed ones with any vehicles for that matter. I loved this particular subplot. The atmosphere and imagery of a Xyphon's planetary approach rivaled any triple-A blockbuster in my mind; reading about environs rarely leaves me with any sense of... anything, for that matter. Its reading. And yet this book practically projected vistas in such a way I was sure I was seeing the same image as the author. 

 

What I particularly appreciate is how David Guymer did more than a fair share of research into all levels of his plot; there are details particular to Warhammer I admire, just as there are crisp and subtle details about the vagaries and harsh realities of total modern war in all its NBC glory. 

 

What I appreciate more is how David Guymer must have cut his original material in half; as aforementioned there is nothing superfluous, the story flowed so well that for once in many years I found myself turning the page of the book because I actually wanted to find out what happens next. 

 

As I mentioned, I got my hands on this book via dubious methods, but I will be ordering a physical copy to pay my dues to Mr Guymer, and I will be looking forward to his future work, because I think he re-lit my spark not only for only reading, but Wh40k. 

Edited February 19, 2018 by Kais Klip

[nagashnee]

Just finished this book, overall a good read, would rank it the 2 best Primarch series book after perturabo. 

 

Only major complaints are the fact that it doesn't really show Ferrus in a good light in regards to command abilities, and the slight OP nature of the chief Emperors Children character constantly outshining every single iron hand in what should be a book they get to shine in....if only a little? 

 

Still cracking good read, with some great characters, a nice window into the  10th legion.

[Mellow]

When’s ebook release due?

[Roomsky]

When’s ebook release due?

 

Its amazon release is listed as April 3, which is usually about a week after the BL on-site release. So probably March 28ish or something.

Edited February 20, 2018 by Roomsky

[rendingon1+]

Read it and didn't like it at all. Ferrus is still a raging brute who always have problems with others. No indication he's a veteran GC commander because his "tactics" are all about smash with superior force (and superior loses). Worse than Perturabo in chatacter, equal to Angron as a general. EC are extremely annoying, always ridiculously better than poor IH. Like 10x better. And there is not a fragment in the book that would balance it out by showing IH as superior in any way. EC have better tactics, more kills, less loses and are just more skilled. Bravo. Author is using loads of characters (as a mention or a third plan) frmo other BL/FW works which makes everything look claustrophobic (Caphen and Demeter, Lucius and Cario, Mor, Meduson, Branthan...) and unimaginative. Big facepalm for a Land Raider Achilles transporting primarch and five terminators bodyguard. Ending is anticlimatic.

[nagashnee]

@rendingon1+

While i agree with you in spirit, the achilles part i feel is handwaved as it is a named vehicle and specifically mentioned as being Ferrus personal transport, as all primarch personal transports even those based on existing vehicles patterns it will have been heavily modified (dorns t -hawk, perturabos shadowsword etc). Tho i did too giggle at the transport capacity. 

Edited February 21, 2018 by nagashnee