Corvus Blackstar vs. Landraider (A super short batrep)

[Prot]

So I just had a horrid game. Probably my worst beating in 8th edition. But what I'm trying to figure out is if the Landraider or the Corvus is the 'go to' in the codex.... but I do believe it has to be one of those options because otherwise we have a very, very vanilla looking army. (just thinking of the constraint issues GW have given us with transport options for "Kill Teams".)

I'm not going to do a full run down of the game and bore you to tears with it. Basically I had two very beefy Kill teams and they were both deployed in Corvus Blackstars. One had the Watchmaster, and a Termie + Vanguard vet + Black shield a few dudes with Frag Cannons. This loaded it up.

The second Blackstar was deployed on the very opposite corner of the table. It had the second most kitted out Kill team. Similar to above, but a little less expensive and it was lead by Artemis and his super bomb.

I had a third kill team which was fairly average, but flexible in a Razorback with twin- Assault Cannons.

Then I had 5 bikes with a few good hth weapons for flexibility.

The plan was to use the biker's TP homer to pull back the KT's with Termies if I needed it for objectives (This was a Maelsrtom game).

So I had turn 1 and just to give some perspective how it went I deployed my first Corvus in the corner like so:

That's a homing device, the Razorback is full, but it was hard getting full cover so it is definitely not 'center' of table....

The bikes are hidden in the middle...

and the other Corvus is at the very far left, but you get the idea.

I had such a small army that I of course am going first.... BUT Chaos steals the initiative, and this was a sign of things to come.

The Chaos player had a well rounded army. Nothing over the top, probably most of his list was just adjusted with some recommendations I actually made including Abaddon and a 5 man Black Legion-esque Combi weapon Termie squad, and a lot of marines/cultists/Decimator dread/Defiler/Predator, Oblits.

Well after stealing the initiative I tell him which Corvus has the Watchmaster/Librarian in it, and he unloads the Predator annihilator at it, needing 4's to hit because of Supersonic... he takes all the wounds off of it... the Corvus goes down, I lose 2 Kill team dudes.

I basically end up with this. The Kill team is engaged by the defiler, 10 marines, shot up by a ton of stuff, the bikers hold their own and the other Corvus does surprisingly little in the air. This forces me to get the contents of it out, and assault the Decimator dread which heavy flames a good portion of the squad out of close combat and Artemis does 1 Mortal wound to the Decimator with his bomb, I re-roll it with a CP and it turns into a 2.

Deep in my zone my large kill team did make an assault on a Rhino, but ... and this is a really, really goofy mechanism of 8th, the Watchmaster and Librarian FAIL their independent charge rolls. This leaves them alone, as the rest of the kill team has advanced beyond them.

Of course Abe comes in with 5 Termies on my back row and the Combi weapons annihilate the Watchmaster (Slay the Warlord) and the Librarian is the recipient of everything else.

The only thing I can hope to do to retaliate is the Razorback mini-Kill team pours out, the Bikers join in and shoot everything at the Termies. with only one Frag cannon, and higher AP SIA rounds, I manage to kill a whooping 2 termies (4 unsaved wounds). I won't have a chance in close combat so in T2 I call the game.

perhaps the worst game I've had in 8th. I've already played a lot of armies, against a lot of very different opponents and this was one game that was very difficult to figure out what the appropriate changes would be.

This is why I started thinking of the Corvus. It was so dehabilitating to lose one Corvus in the top of T1. Sure it was a bit of luck, but it's quite plausible to happen against a few opponents. But the result was so bad I knew I could not come back using a super slow army, with super small numbers. The opponent could circle me at will and throw rocks at my head until it was safe to come in for the kill.

That weird mechanic of the HQs not making the charge has happened to me in other games and I find it one of the more awkward things in 8th where this results in squads 'abandoning' their HQ's, but it's super dangerous, and it can be incredibly self destructive because the HQ's become very exposed, and in some cases you're losing the 'aura/buff' which you heavily rely on.

This made me think about the Landraider. I have a love/hate with it. I've used it in several games and it's finally become something that kind of plays like it is written. It can take a good beating, and it does perhaps have the best delivery system out of the codex in terms of reliability. BUT it is so incredibly expensive it takes a small army, and makes it smaller.

One complaint about the Corvus I have is the Cluster Launcher bombs are kind of crappy... compared to the 2 Ork Bomber ones, and the Tau one (I've seen these so I don't know about other flyers.) But at 250-260 points each, the Corvus bombs give up to 10 D6 attempts at hitting units with Mortal wounds on a roll of a "6".

Orks (!) and Tau seem to have better bombs, resulting in mortal wounds on a 4+.

The Flyer is expensive, but still much cheaper than a landraider. So I'm starting to think of just using one flyer, even though the load out and speed is pretty impressive on paper.

[Mobius0288]

Just a thought on the characters... it says in the rule book that characters can't be targeted unless they are the closest visible unit (for shooting). So my thought is, as long as you have a front line established... even if your dudes charge, your characters shouldn't be targeted unless you got flanked. The exception is only if they are over 10 wounds.

 

Maybe the balance would be no more than 1 blackstar per army? But then it gets difficult to trick out your kill teams with VVs/bikers/termies and safely transport them. Idk Prot, it's tough.

 

Or maybe switching tactics... perhaps our go to methods include a hybrid of the blackstar with a deep striking support option? VVs or Termies? Thinking out loud here.

 

Sorry that game wasn't very fun.

[Finkmilkana]

Are Landraider really that much more reliable against turn one death? Sure, they have two more wounds, 1 more toughness and one more armor, which helps greatly against plasma and the like. But turn 1 deaths usually come from lucky lascannons (if they drop in enough plasma to kill a Corvus, simply disembarking and killing them is usually better either way). As it can't pop smoke if the enemy goes first it takes on average 1,03 damage per lascanon shots at BS3 compared to 0.97 for the Corvus. It's still less likely to die (2 more wounds), but a heavily damaged ladraider is so slow, units are better of walking. And even at full wounds they are only half as fast as the Corvus. The only situations where I could see the raider being better for quick deployment at the beginning is if it can be parked in cover but the Corvus cannot or against massed anti air. The problem is not the Corvus, I still believe it's the best thing the deathwatch has. The problem is that one unit dying breaks the whole army because everything else is slow, somewhat squishy, expensive and short ranged.

 

The bombs feel pretty lackluster compared to the 4+ ones (which are brutal against deathwatch...), true. But I would still overall call the Corvus a better unit than the ork and tau bombers. I could maybe see them being 5+, but a Corvus with 4+ and all it's other guns would probably be too strong. I'm far more annoyed with the limit to 10 dice. It makes bombs in general somewhat ok against smaller elite squads, best against expensive, standard 10 man squads, but utterly useless (from a points perspective) against the insanely large blobs "cluster bombs" should logically shine against.

[Prot]

I probably didn't recite the issue properly:

 

The IC's get out of the crashed Corvus along with the Kill Team. Kill Team rolls like... 10" for the charge and makes it. The Watchmaster and Libby both fail their independent charges and are stuck on the spot. Their squad essentially takes off leaving them in the dust.

 

Abaddon and 5 Terminators drop >9" away but further away from any other unit I have on the table, and proceed to roast the HQ units off the table.

 

This is something that I've seen happen a lot. You try to be aggressive, your HQ's are super susceptible to being targeted out as a result of failing charges their squads will make. It's something to watch out for. It's very strange and feels awkward.

 

The Corvus is a good unit, but it's very easy to target. Even more so than a Landraider. The Landraider is barely more survivable on paper, but I've played several games with them and even if for the first turn you can tuck it behind a building, this is a luxury a Flyer probably won't have.

 

I'm not pro-Landraider or anti-Corvus, I'm just trying to figure out how to make this work. I like my 'fun' Kill Teams but there's a feeling that the army might be better off without them and I really don't want to give up the Vanguard Vet simply for "Fly".

[shandwen]

From my experience so far (quite limited) and my theory crafting, I have started to doubt taking more than one or two frag cannons would be worth it, and I believe we are stuck with corvus's and venerables's to do our "heavy lifting" and take out big baddies.

I also doubt that they should be used as transports, or that we should try to take uber squads... I will never leave home without a kill team of stalkers, and I wish I had a couple more to make another squad.

I would recommend taking more of a board pressence with dreads or long range cheap kill teams to nullify deep strikes, and getting those points by perhaps dropping the libby and cheapening the kill teams.

[Prot]

Well if we're stripping them down to Sternguard with a Frag Cannon or two, I have to say that's just a little too... vanilla for me. But I would definitely keep a Libbie in any list. Keeping Smite in check is something I'd strongly recommend.

 

If Corvus Blackstars aren't being used as transports then I guess we are talking about very vanilla kill teams. I am not too big on the Stalker in 8th. I think it should have snipe.

 

I just played against a 100 conscript IG parking lot with 3 deep strike Scion special weapons units. Aside from Frag cannons and Hurricane Bolters, I have no idea what else I could use, aside from Blackstar Transports to get near enough to make a difference.

[Irbis]

From my experience so far (quite limited) and my theory crafting, I have started to doubt taking more than one or two frag cannons would be worth it, and I believe we are stuck with corvus's and venerables's to do our "heavy lifting" and take out big baddies.

 

Eh, I kind of agree. With terminators and heavy melee weapons, I'd go with MSU list, maximum 1 corvus or land raider, rest being razorbacks/vets and vanguard veterans for target saturation. If you want heavy melee unit delivered somewhere, I'd lean toward terminators with 3x assault cannon and all power swords (maybe 1 fist if that) plus terminator chaplain dropping in than some tricked out kill team in vehicle, sad truth is MEQ are way too fragile for most of DW upgrades...

[Prot]

I think for the sake of experimentation my next game will be 1 Corvus, and 1 Landraider. I'm flopping on the variant though. Lascannons are big for Deathwatch as the Frag Cannons and SIA can do a lot of mid-low level work. But the Crusader is cheap, and can remove a ton of chaff.

[Finkmilkana]

I would take the normal one, unless you need the 16 slots of the crusader for a very big or two small kill teams. Without the optional stuff that both can take, the las landraider has more firepower than an anti tank Corvus, but the crusader does not have more than an anti chaff corvus and needs to get into range first. The chassis of the crusader is also actually more expensive, it's overall only cheaper because it has less weapons. That's at least how I feel about them.

[Prot]

Yea I'll probably try the las landraider for those very reasons. They work well with my other armies and I think I'm reducing my happy fun Deathwatch kill teams into more boring but effective builds. I'm just a little worried about all the spam m seeing lately.

[Vel'Cona]

Yea I'll probably try the las landraider for those very reasons. They work well with my other armies and I think I'm reducing my happy fun Deathwatch kill teams into more boring but effective builds. I'm just a little worried about all the spam m seeing lately.

 

The spam is real.  One problem DW have from the Character perspective compared to vanilla or "semi-Codex" chapters is the loss of Company Veterans, which can bodyguard wonderfully for expensive Characters.  I think Deep Striking Characters in general should be done with extreme caution if the intent is for melee combat, with preference on durable transports (the LR and Corvus being excellent choices) for Character-intensive units.

[Captain_Krash]

What kind of Spam are you referring to Prot?

 

Krash

[Prot]

Ah it was a 100 Conscript IG list, with parking lot and 3 special weapon (Deep striking) Tempestus teams. So you can't break the Conscripts, and with the 'psychic' phase... er order phase, you cannot tie them up (get back in the fight). So you get about 200-300 over watch flashlights, and 300-400 flashlight shots in their turn. Then the elite stuff comes down behind you, while you're getting shot with 3 Basilisks, 2 wyyverns, Manticore, etc, etc. ... oh and 2 flamer tanks on flanks for over watch. 

 

-edit- 

Also the Ork 180 model point list with trukks (at 2K) is a real thing now.

Edited July 5, 2017 by Prot

[Captain_Krash]

True...But it is fluffy though   DW are once again in a really weird spot. GW literally doesn't know how to make them function as an army. I feel like everything is just waaaay to expensive for what army can actually dish out damage wise. Grey Knights have an easier time and there a special elite army too...

 

Krash

[Vel'Cona]

Ah it was a 100 Conscript IG list, with parking lot and 3 special weapon (Deep striking) Tempestus teams. So you can't break the Conscripts, and with the 'psychic' phase... er order phase, you cannot tie them up (get back in the fight).

 

Aren't Orders given at the start of the Shooting phase?  :P

[Prot]

 

Ah it was a 100 Conscript IG list, with parking lot and 3 special weapon (Deep striking) Tempestus teams. So you can't break the Conscripts, and with the 'psychic' phase... er order phase, you cannot tie them up (get back in the fight).

 

Aren't Orders given at the start of the Shooting phase? 

 

 

Sure... did I miss something? He would retreat in the move phase, disengaging all engaged units, then "get back in the fight" and shoot me up... was this done incorrectly?

[Captain_Krash]

He did things correctly

 

Krash

[Vel'Cona]

 

Sure... did I miss something? He would retreat in the move phase, disengaging all engaged units, then "get back in the fight" and shoot me up... was this done incorrectly?

 

Oh, yeah.  I got confused by the "Psychic phase" comment which was intended in jest.  Because I am a dumb-dumb.  :P

[leth]

As I said in my tactica thread.  Deathwatch need to be treated as an elite midrange army, and that is about all they can do effectively. You need to supplement them with other imperial factions to work well.  Personally I am building my deathwatch around the assmption that I will be counter punching instead of Charging straight into their gunlines.  Which means that I aim to setup at midfield around turn 2-3 while my allies drop all the ordanance and heavy weapons on their heads taking out a lot of the chaff and build my kill teams accordingly.

 

Losing the Corvus to the predator in one volley was statistically very unlikely, especially combined with the sieze and so I would not take it as a solid indication of what to expect. 

[Vel'Cona]

 

Losing the Corvus to the predator in one volley was statistically very unlikely, especially combined with the sieze and so I would not take it as a solid indication of what to expect. 

 

^ Absolutely this.  Sounds like a bit of Murphy's Law in action, IMO.

[Moostick]

Anyone tried the LR variants yet? I don't have a LR (surprising, I know), but I'm wondering if anyone has had better luck with them. My Corvus is getting shot down pretty often now because people realize it needs to die and it's an open target T1.

 

I want one for an assault unit, so LRC or LRR seem to be the better and cheaper options. LRC is only about 50 pts more, can transport more, and has the same number of shots (although 12 are just bolter shots). LRR has similar fire power minus the hurricane bolter, the same transport capability, and costs 100 pts more. Both have better survivability, of course, and always hit on 3+ when undamaged. I'm leaning towards the LRR; anyone have comments on the two?

[Mobius0288]

Been thinking about that myself yesterday. Mine hasn't bee shot down super fast, but  I think having an alternate medium with a lot of firepower would be good. Pushing a flank or up the middle, taking advantage of cover.... ya there's some different things to use there. For me, probably the crusader because I have a drop pod and razor back that I'd push the assault with and still have some medium range fire support.

 

I can see it being not as fast paced as the Corvus. Maybe an issue depending on how the army is built?

 

If you want it sitting in the back, the regular land raider's not bad... but at that point, I think a couple razorbacks could do a similar job for cheaper.

 

I will probably end up buying one this weekend because I re-read this thread (the repulsor just doesn't seem worth it unless I transport some primaris guys in it too...separate discussion though!).

[Vel'Cona]

I will probably end up buying one this weekend because I re-read this thread (the repulsor just doesn't seem worth it unless I transport some primaris guys in it too...separate discussion though!).

 

In terms of pure anti-infantry dakka, the Repulsor buries the Crusader, and it's a pain to charge, too.  Its big downside is the 3+ Save, which makes it easier to whittle down than the LR, though being able to fall back and shoot is incredibly powerful for a tank with this much firepower.

 

I think the Corvus still stands well even with GW's recent FAQ addressing Flyer spam, especially more so now because DW tended to use it as a transport more than C: SM armies used the Stormraven Gunship in that role.  Essentially, we were already playing it as intended, whereas the codex armies are having to adapt to use the SR properly instead of having it carry lists.

[Finkmilkana]

Well, LR have the big problem that they can be bound in meele, so you kinda need to bublewrapp them/be careful where you drive or risk them becoming useless.

 

Especially if you want to transport a meele squad. If you drive the LR very close to the enemy (so you are in easy charge range even if they walk away) it might be enveloped by their bubble wrap so you can't even fall back/disembark until the chaff is cleared out. If that happens to the Corvus, you can still fall back as well as having more maneuverability to avoid it in the first place.