Unit of the Week: Dreadnoughts

[Yodhrin]

 

If I present an official book published by a division of Games Workshop with rules for various units, and put said units on the table, players don't have a leg to stand on to refuse to play them. Player opinion does not override official rules.

 

 

 

Ummmm, a player has every right in any game and in any situation to decline to play a game.  You can't force them to play against you.  If someone doesn't want play against Forge World units, that is their right as a gamer, pure and simple.

 

 

They do, of course. But they also have every right to refuse to play Eldar, or Tau, or armies that include Guilliman or Cawl, or armies painted red - yet you wouldn't find many folk defending them if they were making those choices. The point being when you show up to a game without any special qualifiers or conditions arranged beforehand, the person who expects to be able to use all of the official models and rules for said game is not the one being unreasonable or demanding special treatment.

[Timur]

If the game company cannot balance it's product to the satisfaction of its consumers, said consumers (us) will walk away, or change the elements of the game to that which works for those involved.  GW is not a government or other power we are subject to and must obey. 

 

Unless I'm mistaken, please link if I am, Forge World, it's models, and it's ruleset, is distinct from that of "regular" 40k.  It's not 40k apocolypse.  It's not 40k cities of death.  It's Forge World, Forge World campaigns, Forge World 30k.  As a business, they operate as separate entities that allow for sharing/utilizing 40k intellectual property.  I believe they are both under one parent company or incorporation so there is no legal issue of sharing property rights.  Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.  (ex. a British national should have access to public financial records if your laws are like ours.)

 

They have even shared units with a points and rule change (my sweet baby Contemptor).  Notice how it's clear what unit works in what system.  Relic Contemptor, Mortis, et al., have FW datasheets and points.

 

This means that no, they are not actually the same game. They're close.  The problem arises when adding FW to a competitive environment as they are better for the points.

 

Do not be that jerk and try and force your other ruleset on someone unwilling.  That is horrible for the game.  If no one cares, then have fun with your pretty units.

 

{folds up soapbox and walks away }

[Bremon]

Forge World can kick the can on down the road as far as I'm concerned. I've never played a game with their models or rules, never faced them across the table and likely never will.

[Damo1701]

If the game company cannot balance it's product to the satisfaction of its consumers, said consumers (us) will walk away, or change the elements of the game to that which works for those involved. GW is not a government or other power we are subject to and must obey.

 

Unless I'm mistaken, please link if I am, Forge World, it's models, and it's ruleset, is distinct from that of "regular" 40k. It's not 40k apocolypse. It's not 40k cities of death. It's Forge World, Forge World campaigns, Forge World 30k. As a business, they operate as separate entities that allow for sharing/utilizing 40k intellectual property. I believe they are both under one parent company or incorporation so there is no legal issue of sharing property rights. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. (ex. a British national should have access to public financial records if your laws are like ours.)

 

They have even shared units with a points and rule change (my sweet baby Contemptor). Notice how it's clear what unit works in what system. Relic Contemptor, Mortis, et al., have FW datasheets and points.

 

This means that no, they are not actually the same game. They're close. The problem arises when adding FW to a competitive environment as they are better for the points.

 

Do not be that jerk and try and force your other ruleset on someone unwilling. That is horrible for the game. If no one cares, then have fun with your pretty units.

 

{folds up soapbox and walks away }

GAMES WORKSHOP -> Forge World -> Black Library.

 

All are the same company.

 

Games Workshop owns all three. Mainstream takes care of their core lines.

 

Forge World expands up on the setting and tackles projects GW are either too busy to touch or don't want to for whatever reason. They also produce the models we know are associated with the setting that, using the plastic injection moulding, GW can't really afford to do for the limited runs/size of model.

 

Black Library handle the saleable creative side like art prints alongside the Novels and Audio they also produce.

 

With the advent of the index books from Forge World, their models are just as valid as anything in either a codex or index that GW themselves release for their mainstream settings.

 

If an event or store won't let me use the official models I have paid for, assembled, and painted, then I will simply take my business to a store/club that will.

 

Let's use an example:

 

If I have a wonderfully built and painted Raven Guard Contemptor Dreadnought armed with Kheres and Combat Weapon, and somebody tried to tell me that I couldn't use it, I would pack up and leave. If I had purchased before finding a game, I would return the purchase for a refund.

 

This is why I don't attend events at my local GW anymore. The manager does not like Forge World, so, unless it's a hobby-emergency, I don't go in as often as I'd have liked to.

 

Regardless of opinions regarding Forge World, we can mostly agree their Dreadnought range is fantastic.

 

Besides, there is nothing to stand on claiming Forge World is a different rule set, unless you are trying to play 7th ed HH against 8th ed 40k. There are 40k rules for the majority, if not all, Forgeworld units designed for 30/40k. That means it's the same system, same rules, so no point in arguing it.

[Lord Blackwood]

I  dont know where you are getting the whole Different Ruleset  stuff from Timur.
Its designed to be used with the current edition , the Imperial Armor books even say so. 

There are even Relic rules that act as safeguards against Forgeworld unit spam 


“Welcome to Imperial Armour – Index: Forces of the AdeptusAstartes. This book is designed to update the rules for Forge World’s current and recent ranges of models for use with the latest incarnation of the Warhammer 40,000 game. Inside you will find rules for Forge World’s Space Marines, Grey Knights, Inquisition and Sisters of Battle units, including ancient relics from the age of the Horus Heresy for your Adeptus Astartes forces, as well as revisiting characters from Forge World’s Badab Wars campaign.”

 

Excerpt From: Games Workshop Ltd. “Imperial Armour - Index: Forces of The Adeptus Astartes.” Games Workshop Ltd, 06/06/2017. iBooks. 
 

This material may be protected by copyright.

 

“This book and its contents are fully compatible with Warhammer 40,000 – Index: Imperium1and Warhammer 40,000 – Index: Imperium 2, expanding on the range of datasheets to be found there and contain all the information which you will need to field your Forge World models in the new edition of the Warhammer 40,000 game. Also included are both Power Ratings and an appendix for their use in Battle-forged armies.”

 

Excerpt From: Games Workshop Ltd. “Imperial Armour - Index: Forces of The Adeptus Astartes.” Games Workshop Ltd, 06/06/2017. iBooks. 

This material may be protected by copyright.

Edited September 17, 2017 by Lord Blackwood

[Timur]

Thank you.  I was looking for an official quote.  Remember, these were distinct rule-sets up to last edition.  (remember asking for permission, etc)

 

So now it's clear (to me) it's GW's intention to merge all of these systems.  (a la "regular" contemptor)  Or adding the datasheets officially into 40k, as you quoted above.

 

I personally am fine with it, as long as the datasheets don't have ridiculous rules/point values.  (Gotta have more contemptors)

 

However, I still don't like this idea of, "GW just wrote it now you have to play my 4 leviathan list or you're a jerk" mentality.  

 

I think the hobby should be more welcoming then that, after all normalizing FW just made the hobby more expensive.

[Lord Blackwood]

In order for someone to play a four leviathan list they would need an additional 4 heavy support slots in the same detachment due to the relic rule.  

The situation you are presenting is not one that is feasible inside normal point values. 

[Timur]

Don't be ridiculous and literal.  It was an offhand reference to how FW is seen by us older players.

[Lord Blackwood]

When you spread misinformation about how things work  people who dont have the book  latch on to the scary possibilities that they are hearing about and continue to perpetuate that misinformation. 

You  admit to  not understanding the rules in the Index and then  make an outrageous claim that someone who  has not read the rules of the index would make. 

I am simply attempting to help you understand the current rules of this edition as it pertains to   the Imperial Armor books. 

Crying about something you dont know anything about  but feel you  do because of X amount of years of  "hobby experience "  does little to actually  help others  do things like effectively build their  lists / deal with units that are present in these books you  dont own / did not read.  

Leviathan dreadnoughts are extremely  powerful in short range bands but expensive  and even more expensive with a dreadnought drop pod. 

Relic contemptors have a wider range of weaponry but pay a premium for it. 

Contemptor Mortis patterns can boast significant fire power on interesting platforms

Deredeo dreadnoughts can help you build a  dreadnought star due to thier interesting automantic pavaise wargear as well as being a pretty nifty firebase. 

These are things that add to this discussion , taking a look at the units themselves as oppose to  the  grumbling and whining about books because of some old  " Forge world is so broken "  mentality.  

[Helycon]

Quick note: if you run into a chaos player with 4 Leviathan dreads, he's doing it right ;) .

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Quick note: if you run into a chaos player with 4 Leviathan dreads, he's doing it right .

 

Yeah, but he's also not going to put his kids through college! 

[Zeruvar]

 

 

Quick note: if you run into a chaos player with 4 Leviathan dreads, he's doing it right .

Yeah, but he's also not going to put his kids through college!

If he has kids in the first place...

 

Ba dum tsss

 

Honestly though, I'd hate to be on the receiving end of that army though.

[Timur]

Oh hi straw man.  I knew I'd find you here.

 

This is the dreadnoughts in 8th thread.  There is an issue pertaining to GW and FW merging over the years.  Dreadnoughts are tops in 8th.

 

Those around for FW being distinct will have a harder time coming to terms with it being mainlined into the 40k we've been playing through the editions.

 

My self, and many others haven't gotten, and may never get the new FW books.  That means ppl. like that won't be inclined to play w/ FW, or run tourneys/etc with those datasheets/rules/etc. 

 

The reason I speak up is not only do I see this mentality of I'm right so I'm gunna try and force people. to play this or that army on the internet.  (who cares?)

I see It go down in real life in my local.  That I find annoying.

 

This will crop up whenever a FW dread gets a good review or recommended, until GW/FW & the community at large deal with it.  (cause $$$$ you fools).

Edited September 21, 2017 by WarriorFish
Chat speak replaced

[Lord Blackwood]

The idea that

 

I do not own this book therefore I will not play against it.

 

Is ridiculous plain and simple.

 

Do you own every codex ? No but you'll play against different codexes you don't own yes ? It's just the units in the forge world index you won't play against ?

 

You don't own the book. You don't know the rules in the book and from the sound of it you don't have any experience playing against things from the book.

 

You are wailing and gnashing about something you simply have no idea about.

 

The forgeworld indexes are part of 8th edition 40k they even state as much themselves. The units are legal and viable so long as they are included in the correct manner ( relic rule )

 

If you don't want to play with or against them that is fine. Begrudging others for wanting to use the models they paid for / painted is not fine.

 

If you don't wanna play against something then don't but don't let your biases get in the way of meaningful discussion of legal units.

 

The dreadnoughts in the Imperial Armor books are just that. Legal units. And if we're discussing dreadnoughts in 8th they are part of that discussion.

[Ebon Hand]

I really don't get the Forgeworld hate. There are plenty of non FW units that are as strong or stronger than FW units. For example, a Storm Raven has about the same firepower as a Legion Sicaran, and it can FLY as well as carry troops and a Dreadnought!

 

Everyone fears Leviathans, and they are definitely good, but did you know they die to lascannons just like any other Dreadnought? A common Predator or Devastator squad could light it up easy.

 

Not to mention, for Chaos, Decimators and Leviathans won't get legion rules because they aren't Helbrutes.

 

I could understand if they weren't fun to play against, but that simply isn't the case. I have no FW units if my own but I fight them regularly and they are fun to play against.

 

If the opponent is spamming powerful units in friendly games, that's a problem with your opponent not the units.

[Helycon]

The word 'spam' is never a good one.

 

I own some forge world stuff, I love the way it looks and yeah, the rules for them are generally pretty decent. There is a major caveat though: it's expensive points wise. A Leviathan is over 300 points easy, that's 1/7th of an army, and you do need at least another heavy support choice as tax. Don't want that? Then no leviathan. A fire raptor costs double the points of a Nephilims. Is it twice as good? I'm not sure, since it's it one target. A Spartan is 500 points. That's 8 lascannon shots, sure, a ton of transport, but it's also 1/4th of an army. It looks fantastic, but people will try to kill it as soon as humanly possible because of it. It's an eye catcher.

 

Forge World stuff is fine, it's fun, it shakes things up. Just don't spam it.

[Captain Idaho]

=][= This is not the place for a debate on Forge World. Take it elsewhere.

 

For now, know that any advice you give to someone can be scrutinised to fit their own circumstances. Try to be balanced. =][=

[Bremon]

I'm playing a 1k list with a ven. dread and predator as my antitank/MC. 6 lascannons and a missile launcher. I was hoping to use a table edge and the Dread to anchor my flanks, but couldn't find the points for CC weapon and heavy flamer. With a captain and Lt for rerolls is the missile launcher potentially more effective over the course of a game anyway? Not sure which way to lean on this but the missile launcher should get a few shots in early at least, while the fist and flamer aren't great until later but could potentially effect my opponents movement at least. Thoughts?

[Freman Bloodglaive]

Well I find my Venerables not moving much, with that 48" range it's rare that they have to, that 2+ to hit is so tasty. Consequently I'm painting up some Dreads with las/missile.

 

Sure, if you're using them as close support for more mobile squads the close combat weapon could be helpful, but I think, for the points, either twin autocannons, or las/missile, are the way to go.

[Bremon]

Yes, I'll be using it as the anchor on the end of a gunline that's pretty static. My regular opponents are Tyranids and Death Guard and thinking about it more today I've come to the conclusion that, despite plans to magnetize, my first priority for this ven dread is converting a pair of twin autocannon arms. In a 1k game his weight of fire, strength and damage seem ideal for being able to effectively attack a wide variety of enemy units.

[Aegir_Einarsson]

I'm pretty sure that you can't use TLAC on ven Dread. Unless it's FW one. The codex entry negates the index one. And in dreadnought codex entry there is No option to take TLAC

[Helycon]

I'm pretty sure that you can't use TLAC on ven Dread. Unless it's FW one. The codex entry negates the index one. And in dreadnought codex entry there is No option to take TLAC

By that same logic, you can no longer use librarians on bikes. You still can.

 

It's fine to use twin autocannons. You just use the rules for them from the index, but the points cost from the codex. It's fair game.

Edited September 30, 2017 by Helycon

[Aegir_Einarsson]

No.

 

You are wrong.

 

There was something about that in the oficial source.

 

You can use librarian on bike because there is No such unit in the codex, So you can use entry fron index And its valid.

 

But in the codex there is unit called dreadnought So it teplace the entry from the index.

[Ishagu]

Just use the rules from the FW index for the Mortis Dread. It's better anyways

[Bremon]

Seems to go against the idea of GW saying they aren’t invalidating anyone’s models so...I’ll continue to use the TLAC/TLLC combo until I read somewhere that GW has clarified that they are invalidating minis.