Lets Talk Forgeworld

[HYBRIDHAWK6]

Hello fellow Watchmen/Battle-brothers

 

So today I want to talk about Forge World, but more specifically three units that i have been looking at.

 

With Deathwatch being a low model count faction the aim of the game has to be efficiency somewhere so we can actually run with a chance of winning.

 

 

Tarantula Turrets :-

Coming with Twin linked Heavy bolter or TL Assault Cannons at 30/31 points respectively these look like a complete steal. T5 W5 can be a pain to get rid of and is BS3+!

The draw back is HB must attack nearest infantry first.

Lascannons must attack nearest Tanks first.

Assualt cannon and Multiamelta variants do not have any "must attack" rules attached.

 

Stormbird :

Actually hoping someone will come out of nowhere and give a good verdict on this one but i have been recommended it for 8th edition as it works like the Stormravens currently.

 

Fire Raptor :

Of the two Birds this is the one that i am eyeing up the most. coming in at 400 points this thing has 2 Quad Heavy bolters and Megabolter and hellstrike Missles.  The reason I like the sound of it is because it makes the corvus look bad in terms of raw firepower and carries around the same surviability while taking no penalty for flying around due to the machine spirit rules.

 

So I am hoping to create discussion about these units.

 

 

[Mobius0288]

I think someone else here actually had a Fire Raptor, but the vibe I got was that you became "that guy" if you brought one. It's definitely powerful. 250 pts naked though, which could be another decked out kill team and transport. It would have to be at least a 2000 pt game for me to take it, and would depend a little what my opponent had. I can't remember if it was considered if it was a relic or not, but you'd have to take a non-relic flyer with it per the relic rule.

 

The turret is an out of the box idea, to me at least since I never really see them. A HB could be great for camping a back field obj or flank. Definitely want the range since it's going to be stationary the entire game. Again, probably situational. It could wreck in smaller or close quarter obj games.

 

Got nothing on the stormbird. Looks really cool and I have no room to put it anywhere if I bought one. Also don't think anyone would want to play me if I had a flying super heavy. Could probably squeeze out 3-4 kill teams with 2 HQs at 2k pts?

 

I think I still want a fire raptor though... lol

[Ordo Xenos Inquisitor]

If the Deathwatch have gotten a lot of bad rep for being beaten by even the most common all-rounder builds, I'd say they give us that one chance for us to be "that guy" with the Deathwatch. After all, it's not every day we get to break the enemy's face. :D

[HYBRIDHAWK6]

@Mobius0288

 

I don't have my book with me at the moment but i don't think it is a Relic so it should be fair game. That being said if it was then a corvus blackstar isn't a bad choice either way. The Fire raptor to me seems crazy good on paper and maybe it is a little "that guy" but I am really struggling to see the downside of it. It is kind of fragile for 400 points but it should be okay for a turn or two before it gets everything shot at it and you can as part of the newest FAQ swap its Heavy bolters for Twin linked autocannons so you can stay at 48" range plus if you wanted just strafting the back board.

 

You got exactly what I was thinking with the turrets. See people have been hyped over Stalker Marines because they are cool but a Heavy bolter turret or two or three could sit on a back objective and puts out 6/12/18 Heavy bolter shots at more range with the only draw back being it can use 2+ Wound rounds but the HB is still str 5 AP-1. 3 of them would come in at 90 points in comparision to 5 stalker Marines at 105 points. They would also be T5 W15 but 3 units in comparison to 4T 5W and 2+ in cover.

 

@Ordo Xenos Inquisitor

 

See i always find it is better to have the Units then scale back but it depends on your local group i guess. My group plays a mixture of competitive and casual so you just need to cater to the players. That being said I am also interested in trying to use Deathwatch in a competitive format. Being "that guy" has never bothered me as long as both players are having fun.

Edited July 17, 2017 by HYBRIDHAWK6

[Ordo Xenos Inquisitor]

@Mobius0288

 

I don't have my book with me at the moment but i don't think it is a Relic so it should be fair game. That being said if it was then a corvus blackstar isn't a bad choice either way. The Fire raptor to me seems crazy good on paper and maybe it is a little "that guy" but I am really struggling to see the downside of it. It is kind of fragile for 400 points but it should be okay for a turn or two before it gets everything shot at it and you can as part of the newest FAQ swap its Heavy bolters for Twin linked autocannons so you can stay at 48" range plus if you wanted just strafting the back board.

 

You got exactly what I was thinking with the turrets. See people have been hyped over Stalker Marines because they are cool but a Heavy bolter turret or two or three could sit on a back objective and puts out 6/12/18 Heavy bolter shots at more range with the only draw back being it can use 2+ Wound rounds but the HB is still str 5 AP-1. 3 of them would come in at 90 points in comparision to 5 stalker Marines at 105 points. They would also be T5 W15 but 3 units in comparison to 4T 5W and 2+ in cover.

 

@Ordo Xenos Inquisitor

 

See i always find it is better to have the Units then scale back but it depends on your local group i guess. My group plays a mixture of competitive and casual so you just need to cater to the players. That being said I am also interested in trying to use Deathwatch in a competitive format. Being "that guy" has never bothered me as long as both players are having fun.

 

 

Considering there are only two of us who play 40k, we go all out. I never minded being outclassed by my friend's army. We basically go all out or go through campaigns. Though I fear the game will grow stale on our end quickly unless we add variety. Thank goodness he has a Tzeentch daemon army for my Deathwatch to play with. 

[Prot]

I have the Fire Raptor but haven't fielded it yet... and it's not for fear of being 'that guy', but I'm trying to get comfortable with the army on a fundamental level before moving onto something that might be making the army work on a higher level. (This is why I rarely use Guilliman in my  Ultra's.)

 

The thing I'm finding about big, powerful, but expensive units is yes, they can come off as omnipotent, but giving up first turn and having a large model that can't be hidden (8th dictates a wing sticking out from behind a building allows your opponent to target it). I've had very good, strong units get hosed in T1.

 

Someone here (I think it was Leth, but could be wrong) said it would be rare that I lose a Corvus in T1 (which happened in my mini-batrep). This isn't true in my experience. It's VERY easy to lose a flyer in T1, I've lost Landraiders that I was certain were hidden. I think this is how 8th plays, and was intended to play.

 

So you take a big toy, you play a high stakes game of smoking your opponent, or being smoked. This is my experience so far. This is also why (in my opinion) gobs of chaff are winning games... I'm facing massive model count armies that in theory can damage just about anything, and if not, then tie you up. Very little risk to those armies and I would argue that at this point it appears those massive model count armies are the new 'that guy'. (I can't tell you how frustrating Astra is now with meat-shield/parking lot now if you haven't faced it).

 

So that in part is why I haven't bothered with pricey units. The dual Corvus games I've tried have been home runs or incredibly disappointing. Same with multi landraider lists.

[dicebod]

The only thing that puts me off the turrets is that they are very un-deathwatch.  Look!  Our kill team inserted via rope-line into enemy territory!  And we brought stationary turrets with us...?

[Dantay VI]

Fire Raptor is absolutely nuts

 

My first game with it, it deleted a squad of necron destroyers with Lord turn 1 (blew 2 away and the rest were off the board due to morale).

 

Then survived a necron death flyer attack, and put 10 wounds on it from overwatch. plus bore the brunt of a monoliths firepower

 

Turn 2 it wrecked the necron flyer (fire raptor was down to 3 wounds and hitting on 5's but the output was still pretty impressive).

 

Then got took down by the monolith. I was ace!! Put the fear of the emperor in my opponent so he started reacting instead of being his usual aggressive self 

[HYBRIDHAWK6]

@dicebod

 

To me it makes sense purely on the basis that the Deathwatch carry a fair amount of extra gear and sentry guns would allow a small unit to operate in the mission area way more successfully.

 

@wolf_priest_dantay

 

See that is exactly what i wanted to hear. T7 W16 3+ is a good statline with -1 to hit but i still think it has a good chance of falling down from a few good lascannon shots.

 

I think the Turrets are a really good idea to get some extra dakka on the board and zone control and they will still count as <Deathwatch> which maybe needed later on with the Codex release.

[sockwithaticket]

The only thing that puts me off the turrets is that they are very un-deathwatch.  Look!  Our kill team inserted via rope-line into enemy territory!  And we brought stationary turrets with us...?

Mate, have you seen Aliens?

 

They're a strategic and a thematic choice imo, but you'll need to have a very specific role in mind and they won't suit super aggressive tactics where they can be left behind unless you're relying on them to basically just hold your backfield.

[HYBRIDHAWK6]

 

The only thing that puts me off the turrets is that they are very un-deathwatch.  Look!  Our kill team inserted via rope-line into enemy territory!  And we brought stationary turrets with us...?

Mate, have you seen Aliens?

 

They're a strategic and a thematic choice imo, but you'll need to have a very specific role in mind and they won't suit super aggressive tactics where they can be left behind unless you're relying on them to basically just hold your backfield.

 

But this is the beauty of the situation. Instead of running stalker marines and if you want to go further adding heavy bolters you can just run turrets to the value of that unit and you can still keep your back objectives and get some silly leavel of Heavy bolters. Major draw down is no target priority butif you take 3-5 turrets for 90-150 points then its win win. because that is  18-30 Heavy bolter shots just flinging at whatever comes towards you. not that much different to 24-30" stalker boltguns

[Raktra]

I'm loving the idea of running a Chaplain Dreadnought. 9 wound T7 character, saucy as all hell! Slap on a flamestorm to keep the DWatch's cleanse'n'purge theme and you're on a winner. Shame it's slow, but eh, can't have it all.

[dicebod]

 

The only thing that puts me off the turrets is that they are very un-deathwatch.  Look!  Our kill team inserted via rope-line into enemy territory!  And we brought stationary turrets with us...?

Mate, have you seen Aliens?

 

They're a strategic and a thematic choice imo, but you'll need to have a very specific role in mind and they won't suit super aggressive tactics where they can be left behind unless you're relying on them to basically just hold your backfield.

 

 

Haha, fair enough!  You guys are getting me to look longingly at those Kromlech stationary turrets 

 

I'm loving the idea of running a Chaplain Dreadnought. 9 wound T7 character, saucy as all hell! Slap on a flamestorm to keep the DWatch's cleanse'n'purge theme and you're on a winner. Shame it's slow, but eh, can't have it all.

 

Totally!  The delivery system is the big issue though, as if you give him a Flamestorm/Heavy Flamer a Drop Pod will put you outside of range.  He'll be amazing if/when we get an 8th ed version of Zone Mortalis.

[Ordo Xenos Inquisitor]

 

The only thing that puts me off the turrets is that they are very un-deathwatch.  Look!  Our kill team inserted via rope-line into enemy territory!  And we brought stationary turrets with us...?

Mate, have you seen Aliens?

 

They're a strategic and a thematic choice imo, but you'll need to have a very specific role in mind and they won't suit super aggressive tactics where they can be left behind unless you're relying on them to basically just hold your backfield.

 

 

 

Dawn of War 2 could be an ideal way to picture the Deathwatch using turrets where they are needed, minus the Techmarine. :)

[shanewatts]

I really wanna try filling a Mastodon with Deathwatch and see how that goes personally.

[HYBRIDHAWK6]

I did make some errors so let me just post them here.

 

Turrets are BS4+ not 3+

They are T5 W4 3+ not T5 W4 4+. I apologize for the mix up

 

They are also 27 points per twin linked Heavy Bolter not 30.

 

I will add they are 1-3 Turrets per unit and are LD10

 

The list I am looking to make could easily run 12 Heavy Bolter turrets = 324 Points 

A fire raptor or whatever i can find that has high dakka.

 

Then a bunch of combi-plasma marines with WM and this should be pretty competitive on paper.

 

 

Pros :

 

- So much unrelenting fire power

- You can't be deepstriked against because of network of Turrets

- On paper a buff captain or Master would make the Heavy bolters disgustingly efficent

- Gives Deathwatch massive flexibility without taking away from what it is to be Deathwatch. Turrets are actually a common Deathwatch tool in the RPG and Lore.

- Increases Model count and general toughness of the Army

- Turrets can't be locked in combat 

Cons 

 

- You may lose out on First turn (Massive weakness)

- Turrets are controlled as Infantry closest and then closest unit thereafter can limit targeting ability (minor weakness because of the pure dakka and that you could easily activate something that is Anti-tank for example first to allow them better targeting )

- Easy to collect Kill points still W12 T5 2+ per unit in theory

- Monsterous creatures are weird to target because they have neither Infantry or Vehicle tags

- Uses FW (But I think we all knew we would have to look to forgeworld)

- Even with the forcing of making DW competitive nothing is stopping you running this as SM/SW/DA/BA and arguably doing this better 

Edited July 19, 2017 by HYBRIDHAWK6

[Mobius0288]

I think just taking them for anti-deep striking has some great potential. That would be my number 1, followed by backfield objective camping.

 

I am also really digging the chaplain dread idea. I gotta figure out how to get the twin autocannon off of him, but that inferno cannon sounds amazing. He's a character AND he has less then 10 wounds, so he still can't be targeted first in the shooting phase if other units are around. I bet he'd be great to escort in via a stormraven.