Chapter Focus: Salamanders

[Zamtro]

 

Oh, watching Warhammer Twitch - Flamecraft strategem is 1CP:

 

Increase the to wound rolls by +1 for flamer weapons for a unit for shooting phase.

 

So S5 flamers will suddenly wound anything on a 4+, & MEQ on a 2+.

Initial reaction was "...meh, not worth 1 CP", but on second though, this has some great potential.

 

On a unit with a single flamer, it's kinda bleh, not worth a CP.

On a unit with several flamers however it can be (depending on the target) quite devastating.

A Veteran Squad with 5 flamers for instance, or a Land Raider Redeemer with it's two Flamestorm Cannon (if possible), etc.

 

It's not like we really need our CP's for thos failed to-hit rolls or to-wound rolls anyway.

 

Edit: The Hellfire Shells stratagem (Infantry, Heavy Bolter. Only 1 shot but if it hits it causes D3 mortal wounds) also seems really good for Salamanders, since we get that free to-hit reroll.

 

 

Now Imagine 3 Land speeders with 2x Heavy Flamers each... Anti grav upwash gives them 20inch movement, effectively giving you 6D6 Str5 +1 wound autohits on turn one with 28inch range. If the enemy has a poorly deployed flyer or front line unit you really want gone straight away, you've found the squad to do it :P

[Minsc]

 

 

 

 

Now Imagine 3 Land speeders with 2x Heavy Flamers each... Anti grav upwash gives them 20inch movement, effectively giving you 6D6 Str5 +1 wound autohits on turn one with 28inch range. If the enemy has a poorly deployed flyer or front line unit you really want gone straight away, you've found the squad to do it

 

 

That's a very deadly alpha-strike indeed. 

One possible issue with it is that it's currently 342 pts (312 pts in the codex afaik) that you're sending very close to the enemy battleline, so it might or might not be worth it since the chance of them dying or getting very badly shot up is high.

 

On Average against T6+ 3+ save it will also be 21 hits, 14 wounds and 7 after saves, so the chance of the Speeders killing a flier or a tank is low. It's possible, but unlikely.

I like the idéa though, and I got a mental image of green-clad kamikaze pilots shouting "for the emperor!" as they zip towards their deaths. 

Edited July 24, 2017 by Minsc

[Zamtro]

 

 

 

 

 

Now Imagine 3 Land speeders with 2x Heavy Flamers each... Anti grav upwash gives them 20inch movement, effectively giving you 6D6 Str5 +1 wound autohits on turn one with 28inch range. If the enemy has a poorly deployed flyer or front line unit you really want gone straight away, you've found the squad to do it

 

 

That's a very deadly alpha-strike indeed. 

One possible issue with it is that it's currently 342 pts (312 pts in the codex afaik) that you're sending very close to the enemy battleline, so it might or might not be worth it since the chance of them dying or getting very badly shot up is high.

 

On Average against T6+ 3+ save it will also be 21 hits, 14 wounds and 7 after saves, so the chance of the Speeders killing a flier or a tank is low. It's possible, but unlikely.

I like the idéa though, and I got a mental image of green-clad kamikaze pilots shouting "for the emperor!" as they zip towards their deaths. 

 

 

Haha yeah, It's not the most practical unit for the points cost but I need some way to run my 3 existing Speeders and every other loadout can get insanely points heavy (more so than it already is!)

[Andrés Pacheco]

 

I think the latest faq made hammers/fists S10 for S4+1 models.

 

 

Where?

First question in the Designers Commentary. The text is black, so I assume it's been the case since a previous faq and I've just missed it.

 

Basically says you calculate all other modifiers to Strength first, then multiply the result by the weapon's x2.

[God-Potato of Mankind]

 

I think the latest faq made hammers/fists S10 for S4+1 models.

 

Where?

I can't see it in the FAQ, and afaik the rulebook states that you (as in pretty much all editions of 40k since third) double before you add modifiers, so it's (4x2)+1 = Str 9 and not (4+1)x2 = Str 10.

 

 

Also I wasn't being sarcastic, yeah it's only 15 points but if it gets rid of the tarpit that's blocking you from wrecking something more expensive behind them then it becomes worthwhile. I keep hearing how massed infantry is the new meta so anything that helps rid me of that is a good spend in my book.

 

Also what other CP would you use? I see a few that cause d3 mortal wounds and a few more buffbubbles but adding 1 to wound on my Sternguard heavy flamer/combiflamer squad wounding t3 on 2s seems a great use of a CP, much better potential damage than d3 mortal wounds I think...

 

While I don't face Conscript-spamm in my LGS (I'm the only AM-player, and I don't even own Conscripts), I still don't think it's worth 1 CP to kill of 5 more Conscripts, unless it's very vital that they all die this round, now at once, and that you know that Flamecraft will make a difference in killing them off.

 

Most of the time I would probably much rather pick D3 Mortal Wounds on something else for that same CP, or simply save it.

 

Agree to disagree if nothing else.

 

 

Yeah the utility for both is there. I can imagine versus most line-ups D3 mortal wounds is waaaay more useful for either wounding a character prior to your own character charging, or finishing that pesky unit or even dropping it below a profile threshold. 

 

I just like that our flamers can be made more efficient at will. I reckon it'll come in handy. It makes running a single dedicated flamer unit make sense, which I love.

 

Plus Hellfire bolts gives me a reason to build up that GD Minotaur devastator sergeant guy!

Edited July 25, 2017 by God-Potato of Mankind

[FormelyKnownAsSmashyPants]

I gave our chapter tactics and stratagem aome thought today and Im thinking of running my list around a core made up of a full sized sternguard squad with two heavy flamers and combi flamers all round and five multimelta attck bikes, plus as many tacticals in razors as possible to take advantage of the space marines troops having thenew version of obj secured all apread over two detachments, a battalion and an outrider detachment. Id get three cps for bein battle forged, three for the battalion and one for the outrider detachment. The sternguard would serve as my flamer star, the attack bikes wouls esch gwt a reroll to hit and a reroll to wound while still being able to concentate their fire on the same target yet forcing my opponent to divide his fire to hit them. Only rhing left for me to decide on is which hqs to choose.

[Minsc]

 

 

I think the latest faq made hammers/fists S10 for S4+1 models.

 

Where?

First question in the Designers Commentary. The text is black, so I assume it's been the case since a previous faq and I've just missed it.

 

Basically says you calculate all other modifiers to Strength first, then multiply the result by the weapon's x2.

 

 

Are you referring to this?

 

"Q: Are modifiers to dice rolls cumulative in the same way that modifiers to characteristics are? A: Yes.

For example, if a model has the benefit of cover (+1 to its saving throw) and is wounded by a plasma pistol (AP -3, so -3 to its saving throw), the total modifier to the model’s saving throw will be -2."

 

Because nothing in that answer gives me the impression that you multiply modifiers before you add or subtract.

 

In the rulebook on page 175 however, below "modifying characteristics", it says that "All modifiers are cumulative, though you should apply any multiplication or division to the characteristic (rounding fractions up) before applying any addition or subtraction"

[Andrés Pacheco]

Its the link called Designers' Commentary on the WHC new FAQs page:

 

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/07/23/updated-faqs-and-boots-on-the-groundgw-homepage-post-2/

 

You may well still be right though, and I've just got confused. It wouldn't be the first time :D

 

I gave our chapter tactics and stratagem aome thought today and Im thinking of running my list around a core made up of a full sized sternguard squad with two heavy flamers and combi flamers all round and five multimelta attck bikes, plus as many tacticals in razors as possible to take advantage of the space marines troops having thenew version of obj secured all apread over two detachments, a battalion and an outrider detachment. Id get three cps for bein battle forged, three for the battalion and one for the outrider detachment. The sternguard would serve as my flamer star, the attack bikes wouls esch gwt a reroll to hit and a reroll to wound while still being able to concentate their fire on the same target yet forcing my opponent to divide his fire to hit them. Only rhing left for me to decide on is which hqs to choose.

Sounds ace. What are you thinking to get the sternguard about in? And also, are the bikes split into 3 units? I've been heavily loving the idea of multi melta AB in a Sallies list, and trying to balance maxing CT rerolls on them with reducing numbers for deployment. Edited July 25, 2017 by Andrés Pacheco

[CCE1981]

I gave our chapter tactics and stratagem aome thought today and Im thinking of running my list around a core made up of a full sized sternguard squad with two heavy flamers and combi flamers all round and five multimelta attck bikes, plus as many tacticals in razors as possible to take advantage of the space marines troops having thenew version of obj secured all apread over two detachments, a battalion and an outrider detachment. Id get three cps for bein battle forged, three for the battalion and one for the outrider detachment. The sternguard would serve as my flamer star, the attack bikes wouls esch gwt a reroll to hit and a reroll to wound while still being able to concentate their fire on the same target yet forcing my opponent to divide his fire to hit them. Only rhing left for me to decide on is which hqs to choose.

You're aware Sterguard have a Strategem that gives the same bonus when using Special Issue Bolters? Granted it is not auto hitting. Also to top it off in the Codex the guns are 1 pt less than in the Index, making them 18 pts stock.

[CCE1981]

 

 

 

 

I think the latest faq made hammers/fists S10 for S4+1 models.

Where?

First question in the Designers Commentary. The text is black, so I assume it's been the case since a previous faq and I've just missed it.

 

Basically says you calculate all other modifiers to Strength first, then multiply the result by the weapon's x2.

Are you referring to this?

 

"Q: Are modifiers to dice rolls cumulative in the same way that modifiers to characteristics are? A: Yes.

For example, if a model has the benefit of cover (+1 to its saving throw) and is wounded by a plasma pistol (AP -3, so -3 to its saving throw), the total modifier to the model’s saving throw will be -2."

 

Because nothing in that answer gives me the impression that you multiply modifiers before you add or subtract.

 

In the rulebook on page 175 however, below "modifying characteristics", it says that "All modifiers are cumulative, though you should apply any multiplication or division to the characteristic (rounding fractions up) before applying any addition or subtraction"

It took aged to find the rule, it is in one of the sidebars towards the front of the rules section, stupid place for rules. I think it is in the section where it talks about reading a datasheet, again a sidebar. I was a little miffed as well that I voildn't get a toughness 6 Str 14 T. Hammer on a Captain on a bike. Ahh well he will just not be my Warlord and take the Relic Armor and Storm Sheild to hunt down everything.

[Andrés Pacheco]

Q: If a rule modifies a model's strength characteristic, and that model is equipped with a melee weapon that also has a modifier (e.g. x2), could you explain the order in which the modifiers are applied to the characteristics and the weapon's strength?

 

A: First you must determine the model's current strength characteristic. To do so apply all modifiers to it that multiply or divide the value, then apply any that add or subtract to it. Having done this, you then modify this value as described by the weapon's strength characteristic.

[Custodian Athiair]

Q: If a rule modifies a model's strength characteristic, and that model is equipped with a melee weapon that also has a modifier (e.g. x2), could you explain the order in which the modifiers are applied to the characteristics and the weapon's strength?

 

A: First you must determine the model's current strength characteristic. To do so apply all modifiers to it that multiply or divide the value, then apply any that add or subtract to it. Having done this, you then modify this value as described by the weapon's strength characteristic.

 

Source, cause this is how I feel it should run. If a Warlord has +1 strength, then that's a strength of their muscles, which and boosted by TH/PF so arguably should be doubled logically

[Andrés Pacheco]

 

Q: If a rule modifies a model's strength characteristic, and that model is equipped with a melee weapon that also has a modifier (e.g. x2), could you explain the order in which the modifiers are applied to the characteristics and the weapon's strength?

A: First you must determine the model's current strength characteristic. To do so apply all modifiers to it that multiply or divide the value, then apply any that add or subtract to it. Having done this, you then modify this value as described by the weapon's strength characteristic.

 

 

Source, cause this is how I feel it should run. If a Warlord has +1 strength, then that's a strength of their muscles, which and boosted by TH/PF so arguably should be doubled logically

Its the link called Designers' Commentary on the WHC new FAQs page:

 

https://www.warhamme...omepage-post-2/