The Lazurus Crusade: More Black Tide Feedback! 05/11/2018

[Mordian Glory]

Brothers...

 

Its has been many months of long hard toil...

 

Many sleepless nights with naught but the spirit of the Emperor for comfort (and endless episodes of Star Trek and Stargate)...

 

Most said I was mad (my brother and regular opponent)...

 

Others asked "what is the point" (My Girlfriend and very occasional opponent)...

 

Ha! Those poor fools, they didnt understand... But they will!

 

For the wrath of the Black Templars will soon be upon them, for I have completed my Quest. I accepted the challange, no matter the odds!

 

Brothers...

 

THE BLACK TIDE IS COMPLETED!

 

 

There is still some work that needs doing, many of the early models i built lack additional bits like ammo pouches and grenades. But for now the Tide is completed to a good standard.

 

I have a game scheduled with it today that I plan to record and turn into a battle report, so keep an eye out for that. I also plan to take the Tide to a tournement on Sunday. I am not sure how well it will do but at least it will look cool

 

I am not sure where my hobbying will take me now, but I think I will be taking a rest from Templars for a while. I have a GSC army to complete and my Mordians are in dire need of repainting.

 

But for now I am going to enjoy using my templars on the field, whilst I paint other models

[Dosjetka]

A noble effort, congratulations on completing your challenge. :tu:

[Mordian Glory]

As promised here is the Video report of me taking the Black Tide to a ITC Tournament!

 

[Schlitzaf]

So for those unable to watch the video how you do?

[Mordian Glory]

So for those unable to watch the video how you do?

 

I won 2 out of 3 games  :D

 

My list was 10 crusader squads with 9 men in each (6 squads designed for choppy, 4 squads for shooty) captain, Lt, 2 chaplains, emperors champ and 5x jump pack vanguard vets with  power swords and plasma pistols.

 

First game was against Knights and Space Marines.

My opponent had 1 Knight Castellan , 2 Knight Armigers, 2 tactical squads, sniper scouts, 2 libbies, stormhawk and thunderwolf cav.

I deployed all my choppy units in a big blob with the chaplains and EC against the big knight, a little knight, tacticals and thunder wolves. My shooty units went out on a flank and faced down the other armiger knight and scouts and flyer. 

My close combat units charged forwards and took heavy losses but swept all in front of them aside. The enemy tried to counter with thunderwolves but the Emps Champ went to town on them. I almost made it to the big knight but it was just too tough and had too much firepower. 

On the other flank I did a big sweeping flanking maneuver. I shot down the baby knight and plane and wiped out the libbies and scouts with ease. By the end of the game I still had 30 crusaders and my opponent just had he big knight left. 

When it came to toting up points I lost by 3 points, the reason being is I thought the Armigers had the titanic key word. They dont so I didnt get any secondaries for Titan Killer :(  

 

Second game was against Guard.

Enemy list was Pask, 2 Leman Russes, Baneblade, Valk, basilisk and about 40 infantry. 

The game was very similar to the first. My 55 choppy crusaders created a tactical blob around the chaplains and EC, shooty units went with the Capt and Lt.

There was quite a bit of LOS blocking terrain so I used that to my advantage and was able to get quite close in turn 1 without too many casualties. In turn 2 I got off several long charges (YAY reroll charges!) and got in among the Guard armour. The Baneblade counter attacked really hard though and I started taking a lot of damage. 

However, I was able to keep him so busy in his deployment zone that by the time he chewed through all the stabby crusaders, the shooty ones had racked up loads of points and I won by 11 points.

 

 

Third games was against Guard again with lots of Leman Russes and I won by 9 points.

It was very similar to the first game, but it was my favourite as it had loads of epic moments and my opponent was actually quite tactical. There was a lot of attack and counter attack over the center objective which was the only way to get the bonus for having more objectives then your opponent.

1 of my favorite moments was the EC charging out of a ruin with 2 crusader squads and taking down a hellhound almost by himself. The crusaders were gunned down in the counter attack but the EC survived. He then proceeded to charge a infantry squad and primaris psyker. Because he was near a character he entered "beast mode" and thanks to honour the chapter he took the head of the witch and butchered 7 of the infantry squad (the last 2 broke due to battle shock. The following turn my enemy was not able to kill the EC and he was able to charge another Infantry squad and a commissar! He again slaughtered all around him (I had to use honour the chapter again) in a flurry of blows. At this point my opponent was forced to use a demolisher tank to finally stop my EC, his rozarius absorbed nearly everything but even with a divine intervention (aka a tactical reroll) it wasnt enough and the EC was blown away.

 

My final score was 137 and I placed 14th :) 

[Medjugorje]

 

 

My final score was 137 and I placed 14th

 

 

 

14th of ???

 

 

grats from my side.

[Mordian Glory]

 

 

 

My final score was 137 and I placed 14th

 

 

 

14th of ???

 

 

grats from my side.

 

 

Out of roughly 35-40 players

[Schlitzaf]

What were Crusader Squad ratios, 5-4, 6-3, 9-0, etc? And weaponry? Also why did you shooty squads have 4 more bros?

 

I mean that is still top 25%-33% friend. That is nothing to scoff at.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

I'm guessing the list is the army in the picture at the top of the page, so mainly 5-4 and a bit less for other squads.

[Mordian Glory]

What were Crusader Squad ratios, 5-4, 6-3, 9-0, etc? And weaponry? Also why did you shooty squads have 4 more bros?

 

I mean that is still top 25%-33% friend. That is nothing to scoff at.

 

When playing ITC all the units have 9 men to avoid giving away Reaper points.

 

Choppy squads are all 5 Ini 4 Neos

 

2x Shooty Squads are 7 Ini 2 Neos

 

2x Shooty Squads are 8 Ini 1 Neo

 

When not playing ITC all the squads have an extra Neo to be full 10 man units.

 

The reson I have slightly more Power armour then scouts is simply when it came to building the army I was able to get a few good deals on basic marines squads (2 MkIV squads for £16 pounds each and an old tactical squad for £10) which meant I ended up with 60 marines and 40 scouts.

 

Tactically it actually works nicely as it means my shooty squads are just that bit more durable and often they are the ones holding objectives and scoring points, making it tough for my enemy to deny me points.

[Mordian Glory]

Greetings Brothers,

 

I bring to you a battle report of my Black Tide vs Ultramarines. This battle report is from before the latest tournament and was really good for identifying a few issues with my list (e.g. 10 man squads in ITC).

 

I hope you enjoy it :)

 

[Medjugorje]

 

 

 

 

My final score was 137 and I placed 14th

 

 

 

14th of ???

 

 

grats from my side.

 

 

Out of roughly 35-40 players

 

 

then it depends on your claims - but clearly not a catastrophe

 

[Mordian Glory]

 

 

 

 

 

My final score was 137 and I placed 14th

 

 

 

14th of ???

 

 

grats from my side.

 

 

Out of roughly 35-40 players

 

 

then it depends on your claims - but clearly not a catastrophe

 

 

 

It was not a catastrophe, I did better then I expected :) 

 

I think with the general meta switching back to elite armies away from hordes, most people are not really bringing enough anti infantry. Also 100 marines is a tough nut to crack!

[Medjugorje]

I think the Knights destroying the meta at the moment. 

 

Mass Infantry works against Knights (in our Meta - Germany), but all other fractions need lists against Knights or Mass-Infantry, so they have to choose.

[Mordian Glory]

I think the Knights destroying the meta at the moment. 

 

Mass Infantry works against Knights (in our Meta - Germany), but all other fractions need lists against Knights or Mass-Infantry, so they have to choose.

 

Yeah very true. I have been using my IG mass infantry army again as well and it has been doing much better as most people seem to be gearing up for knight killing.

[Margulix]

Wow black tide is so cool!

 

I'm thinking of finishing my own, and playing it!

 

A quick question - about weapons in squads.

 

I thought besf loadouts

for melee guys fist on SB, fist as heavy and melta.

for shooty guys combiplasma on SB, plasma and lascannon\missle.

Am i wrong?

[Schlitzaf]

Never put power fists in a crusader squad. The -1 to hit is way too painful. Melee Weapons for Crusaders should be dirt cheap and used basically if you have free points. Sense as other said efficiently 17 1A PowSword is worse per point spent than 13 2A Chain.* Or more specifically if you spend 8 points on crusader squad (espacially smaller) ones), your better after spending the 7 more points for a naked vanguard squad.

 

The advantage of two Power Weapons is reliability. It’s that 3 PowerSwords reliably kill 1 Meq with a reduced variance compared to chain sword attacks. But secondly, and more importantly, Melta is too expensive. Tides don’t move fast enough to get more than a shot. And you’d rather 2d6 Flamer shots you get for some cost of a Meltagun.

 

Power Fists being the cost of a second marine, and two of them over the cost of two power swords, is the cost of a marine + Power Sword. Basically, tides you want to save as many points as you can. And the upgrades you spend you want to keep as cheap as possible.

 

Shooty Squad, it heavily depends on battlefield role. I personally argue for HvyBolter/GravCannon, Plasm/Plasm. And what you need to fill. If you need more tank and backfield then yeah Lascannons or if you need a a Squad that can stay in motion, and claim then either HoF Weapons or Intercessor.

 

Seriously Mordian good job! How you found running the smaller ‘10’ over traditionally larger 14-16 man tide squads? Reaper is an important thing to worry. But I always worry the smaller 10 man lack attack’s or did you use the buddy principle?

 

*Its less efficient per point, it is not worse. 1 PowSword attack kill 0.27 marines while 2 chainsword attack’s kill 0.22 marines. About a 20% increase for the cost of 33% for the model. The reason it works in tides, is that it becomes 1-2% relative point increase for the squad to increase its damage by 1%-2%

[Margulix]

actually i was crazy inspired by Mordian's game to start own black tide. and to at last move all those guys to correct bases (i want acryllic ones)

 

 

So i still guess what are the best and recommended loadouts for the squads.

 

I still want to go 4 shooty and 6 melee squads.

 

but ofc i have limited options on weapons i have - now they are:

2 cc squads fist, fist, flamer

4 cc squads combi-melta, melta (i have a lot of those from 7th ed)

1 shooty squad (now only missle and plasma)

1 shooty squad (now only lascannon and plasma)

1 shooty squad (now 1 solo plasma guy)

missing 1 shooty squad at all

 

 

so i want your advice on best options for squads.

all PW on crusaders? without meltas and fists at all?

all plasma and lascannon on shooty? or go 2 lascannon 2 heavy bolter?

 

also i think grimaldus and captian on a bike (fearless train and crusader's helm) should go well with this army.

[Medjugorje]

I like the way how Mordian Glory inspired our community, I think I will go to the next tournament with my mechanized BT force ;)

[Sword Brother Adelard]

I went mechanised to my last tourny. It went... Ok. Could have been better.

[Medjugorje]

I went mechanised to my last tourny. It went... Ok. Could have been better.

tell me what happened

[Sword Brother Adelard]

I did a report on my Nihilus Crusade Thread.

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/337863-the-nihilus-crusade-kill-team-inbound/page-3?do=findComment&comment=5145148

[Honda]

Never put power fists in a crusader squad.

 

 

Unless you want to. I always put one in my squads.

 

I understand the statistics you posted above. However, if you don't include a power fist in a squad, your other weapon choices do not provide the equivalent characteristics in the event they are required (high strength, low save, multiple damage).

 

A power fist was never portrayed as a game changer. It is insurance. The fact that the Crusader SB can take a more optimal CC power weapon, give the crusader squad some flexibility that other squads don't have. The power fist is your closer for big uglies. A chainsword can't do  that. When you consider the possibility of fielding multiple 10 man squads, all equipped with two power weapons, one of which is a fist, then the aggregation and focus of those power weapons on a specific target or two means that the weight of those extra S8 hits will have an effect.

 

Now that doesn't mean a fist fits your play style. Some may question the value of one or two on the table. However, if there is one thing we should always keep in mind is that 40K is full of examples where someone used a "Never use this" to significant effect.

 

That's how 40K rolls.

 

My two yen.

[Mordian Glory]

Greetings Brothers,

 

It has been many weeks since I updated the thread. I have been playing on and off with my Black Templars, exclusively using my Black Tide when I do run them.

 

So far I have been doing really well and recently I won again against Scions, which I am pretty proud off as I consider them to be the Anti Marine army. I also faced a Raven Guard gunline (all dread, devs and tacticals with rerolls from character) and won against that as well.

 

What I did notice is that the new prepared defenses strat is amazing! Having all my guys with 2+ saves turn 1 reduces the damage I take significantly and also really helps with deployment as I know longer need to cram my crusaders into terrain to protect against the enemy going first, (which they would normally just move out off in my T1 anyway).

 

I have noticed that my choppy squads are dying more quickly and my shooty squads are picking up the slack. It has made me think that have a black tide army made up of all shooty squads might be really effective! Will try it out and report back.

 

In the mean time, I have included some battle pics below.

[Honda]

You know you are a Black "Tide" Templar when  you  have more boots  on the ground than the IG do.

 

I have this very whimsical thought floating around my head. I have 110+ Mk III marines that need building and painting. Of course, they will only be Templars, but the idea of putting all of them down on a table gives me giggles.