The Lazurus Crusade: More Black Tide Feedback! 05/11/2018

[Margulix]

Please do more black tide reports!

 

While mine in progress, really want to check how well they do.

[Mordian Glory]

You know you are a Black "Tide" Templar when  you  have more boots  on the ground than the IG do.

 

I have this very whimsical thought floating around my head. I have 110+ Mk III marines that need building and painting. Of course, they will only be Templars, but the idea of putting all of them down on a table gives me giggles.

 

Hahaha I should put that in the YKYABT thread :P 

 

And you really should go for it and build the black tide! It will be a long journey but the reward at the end is totally worth it :) The army is fun to play and even if you dont win every game, you always get nice remarks from your opponent.

[Mordian Glory]

Please do more black tide reports!

 

While mine in progress, really want to check how well they do.

 

I will try and get more black tide reports up :)

 

Its crazy, after I finished the army I said "I never want to build another marine" 6 months later and I am like "if I just build 60 more marines I can have a shooty black tide!"

[Medjugorje]

@MordianGlory - why dont take relic Banner that makes us fearless and taking 2 Crusadersquads with 20 man? I mean the only reason because you always take 10 (or 9 in ITC) Initiates is because of Moral.

[Schlitzaf]

@MordianGlory - why dont take relic Banner that makes us fearless and taking 2 Crusadersquads with 20 man? I mean the only reason because you always take 10 (or 9 in ITC) Initiates is because of Moral.

Personally rather take Warlord Rites of War. Sense I’d need a good argument for us not to take Helm/Teeth combo. Also on that note Mordian ITC rules being changed to increments of 10 models killed. Will you change your tide setups?

[Margulix]

I want to try taking a Marshall on bike with rites of war and crusader helm. For fearless+rerolls goodness in 9' and good mobility to move between crusader squads.

[Schlitzaf]

I want to try taking a Marshall on bike with rites of war and crusader helm. For fearless+rerolls goodness in 9' and good mobility to move between crusader squads.

Helm does not buff tires unless you read the warlord trait rules as somehow adding them to the data sheet. The main benefit of Rites or Banner is essentially being a backup leadership bubble. While Cenos do it effectively turn 1-2. Turn 3+ due to charges or being shot at.

 

They tend to die or be out of position which is where Rites/Banner takes over.

[Mordian Glory]

@MordianGlory - why dont take relic Banner that makes us fearless and taking 2 Crusadersquads with 20 man? I mean the only reason because you always take 10 (or 9 in ITC) Initiates is because of Moral.

 

There are actually 2 reasons I take 10 man squads. 1 is for morale and the other, more important reason, is it lets me take additional special and power weapons. 2x 10 man squads can take 2x combi plasma, 2x plasma gun and 4x power weapons. This really boosts my damage output and helps me soften up targets before the charge :)

 

I tend to find that with the cenobite servitors and the rites of war I have most of the army fearless. I do have another chaplain that gives +1 Ld to squads that are not fearless which is normally enough when combined with ATSKNF. I am not against the idea of the ancient with fearless banner, I just find it is important to get a balance between numbers, morale and upgrades. 

[Schlitzaf]

What, Mordian, crusader squads don’t need to take 10 models to be able to heavy/special/special. This is one of our best aspects and ability. It’s why a crusader squad should be 5 Man MSU Heavy/Spec/Spec or 14+ man because the raw strength 4 attacks (and having equal Neo/Ini ratio)

[Neophyte for your Ryghts]

I'm a little late to this party, but reading the thread is pretty inspiring! I only have 30 mkIII but I know exactly what I'm going to do with them! The question that has prompted this post is the recent discussion on numbers. What's the motivation for the 5- vs. 10- vs. 20-model squad? (I get the 9-model for ICT, but I wouldn't play those kinds of rules). As far as I can tell, isn't MSU the way to go? Or are we using neophytes as cheap(er) ablative wounds?

[Schlitzaf]

I'm a little late to this party, but reading the thread is pretty inspiring! I only have 30 mkIII but I know exactly what I'm going to do with them! The question that has prompted this post is the recent discussion on numbers. What's the motivation for the 5- vs. 10- vs. 20-model squad? (I get the 9-model for ICT, but I wouldn't play those kinds of rules). As far as I can tell, isn't MSU the way to go? Or are we using neophytes as cheap(er) ablative wounds?

Yes/No. In summary it boils down MSU Melee squads are empirically terrible. As you can spend 15 points to get an MSU Vangaurd which is just better. But having an equal Neo/Init ratio means your paying what is functionally 12 points a marine. And at point your post 4 points for 1 Strength 4 Melee Attack. Which for context a Vangaurd Squad is also paying 4 points for 1 strength 4 melee attack.

 

So at that stage mathematically a Crusader Squad output in terms of strength 4 Melee Attacks is the same as a Vangaurd Squad. The reason you take 12+ is that once you start having 12 or more models in the squad you start getting “squadied”. 14-16 man is the most efficient as you get the free model, and the points you save allow to buy a power sword for 1A initiates. Now why is this important? A power sword on a 1A Model is essentially 33% upgrade for a damage increase of 25% for that squadie. But a tide squad which will run around 200ish points, that is upgrade relative to Squad, is 2% increase in the cost of the squad. But for 2% it increases the squad damage output by 2%. The reason this is important is that any less you are paying for an upgrade that costs more then 2% relative to Squad size while only increasing your output by 2%-3%. An MSU Squad is a great example here for paying what is around 10% of the squad, your damage output increases only around 4%-5%.

 

In essence a tide squad makes paying for the power sword no longer inefficient.

[Mordian Glory]

What, Mordian, crusader squads don’t need to take 10 models to be able to heavy/special/special. This is one of our best aspects and ability. It’s why a crusader squad should be 5 Man MSU Heavy/Spec/Spec or 14+ man because the raw strength 4 attacks (and having equal Neo/Ini ratio)

 

Oh I know I dont need to take 10 man squads. But like I said it is all about balance.

 

lots of 5 man squads (traditionally with las/plas/plas) is great for damage output but it is bad for durability. You end up spending lots of points on upgrades but you don't have many basic bolter guys to take wounds for the important guns. This means that whilst you may start the game with more special weapons, you lose them a lot quicker. 

 

Likewise if you take big squads of crusaders then you are more susceptible to moral and wound overspill. Also you cant bring as many special/heavy/power weapons so your damage output tends to be lower.   

 

However, I find that the 9-10 man crusader squad strikes a nice balance. It gives you a good amount of firepower with 2-3 special weapons per squad, but also gives your a decent amount of bodies to protect those weapons. Also each squad isnt a massive points sink.

 

Now I dont have loads of statistics/mathhammer to back this up but  after 25+ games with the army in the last 6-7 months this is what I have found works :)

[Medjugorje]

I fully understand your opinions. 5 Ini and 5 Neos because of point reduction, because of modellcount (especially in close combat its very important to have more attacks and more bodies - if you get 2 squads into a fight, after one have fought the fight would be interrupted and you would loose the secound and even your stratagem to fight again ist much more stronger witt more attacks).

 

I think MSU dont work because its too expensive and you will loose  al ot of expensive models very fast. MSU just work with Rhinos but then i dont like 5-man squads. I mean you have a sword brother with combi-weapon, a special weapon and heavy weapon - so its just 2 normal Marines which must be killed after you will loose very expensive models.

[Honda]

However, I find that the 9-10 man crusader squad strikes a nice balance. It gives you a good amount of firepower with 2-3 special weapons per squad, but also gives your a decent amount of bodies to protect those weapons. Also each squad isnt a massive points sink.

 

Now I dont have loads of statistics/mathhammer to back this up but  after 25+ games with the army in the last 6-7 months this is what I have found works

 

 

I fully agree with your statements and that has also been my experience as well (though not as extensive as yours).

 

The whole point about point systems is that they are self balancing if done correctly. I think 40K does a pretty good job of balancing out the risk/reward equation.

 

Want to maximize firepower? Take MSU. The balancing factor is your units are fragile and your most effective weaponry degrades quickly.

 

Want maximize durability? Take 10-10 units, though there are trade-offs against morale and possibly mobility.

 

Want something in between? You go with 9-10 man units with your favorite weapon load out.

 

There is no one right answer. There is only what positive effect do you seek and what negative effect are you going to have to counter? Any of the answers can be effective in the right circumstances. Some can be effective under a broader range of circumstances. The 10 man squad falls into that latter category. So if you aren't really sure what  you'll be running into, sometimes the "effective across a broad set of circumstances" ends up being a better choice.

[Neophyte for your Ryghts]

 

I'm a little late to this party, but reading the thread is pretty inspiring! I only have 30 mkIII but I know exactly what I'm going to do with them! The question that has prompted this post is the recent discussion on numbers. What's the motivation for the 5- vs. 10- vs. 20-model squad? (I get the 9-model for ICT, but I wouldn't play those kinds of rules). As far as I can tell, isn't MSU the way to go? Or are we using neophytes as cheap(er) ablative wounds?

Yes/No. In summary it boils down MSU Melee squads are empirically terrible. As you can spend 15 points to get an MSU Vangaurd which is just better. But having an equal Neo/Init ratio means your paying what is functionally 12 points a marine. And at point your post 4 points for 1 Strength 4 Melee Attack. Which for context a Vangaurd Squad is also paying 4 points for 1 strength 4 melee attack.

 

So at that stage mathematically a Crusader Squad output in terms of strength 4 Melee Attacks is the same as a Vangaurd Squad. The reason you take 12+ is that once you start having 12 or more models in the squad you start getting “squadied”. 14-16 man is the most efficient as you get the free model, and the points you save allow to buy a power sword for 1A initiates. Now why is this important? A power sword on a 1A Model is essentially 33% upgrade for a damage increase of 25% for that squadie. But a tide squad which will run around 200ish points, that is upgrade relative to Squad, is 2% increase in the cost of the squad. But for 2% it increases the squad damage output by 2%. The reason this is important is that any less you are paying for an upgrade that costs more then 2% relative to Squad size while only increasing your output by 2%-3%. An MSU Squad is a great example here for paying what is around 10% of the squad, your damage output increases only around 4%-5%.

 

In essence a tide squad makes paying for the power sword no longer inefficient.

I think I completely understand. Given the amount of maths in that, that's huge compliment to your powers of explanation!

 

So I'm wondering how you would build that 'sweet spot' 15-man squad. I have 30 marines and am just wondering how many scout boxes it'll take... also, are these all bolter, pistol and chainsword, or a mix? I'm assuming Sword Brother is an automated too. I also feel in asking a lot of questions! Has this been discussed elsewhere?

 

Thanks!

[Schlitzaf]

My personally setup is 13-15 Man, with as equals as possible initiate to neophyte ratio in the case of odd numbers +1 initiate. Then I use double power sword, double flamer and all chainsword. But at the end of day, everyone has their own personal preference.

 

My current army for example has two 12 Man and one 14 Man Crusaders geared for melee. Others like Honda and Mordian instead do 9-10 Man. While I personally am highly against what I call the ‘midsize’ crusader squads (it’s lack the explosive firepower of MSU and the efficiency of Strength 4 AP 0 attacks of tide). It has some notable advantages. As if you do for sake of example HvyBolter/Plasma/Plasma, it’ll run you around 150 points. Which for comparison sake a tide squad is 200ish and a MSU squad is 100ish. So for 3 Tide Squads (42ish models), you can 4 9-10 Man (36ish models) or 6 MSU Squads (30ish models).

 

But you asked about tide, now I am strong proponent of going full melee. Because you get to strike twice a battle round and due to your unit size and flamers you can withstand an enemy charging you. That said if you drop roughly a neophyte and maybe an initiate from a tide squad and possibly the second power sword, you can afford a HeavyBolter/GravCannon.

 

One of the weaknesses of a melee geared tide squad is effective engagement range. The tide squad effective range is 6”-8”. And threat range is around 10”-14”. (Move then charge. Also being able to utilize flamer). Starting 24” away, you will take generally one and half turn tills you can effectively engage.

 

The math explanation

Move 12” (move 6” x2) + t1 advance of 3”-4”

Then requiring a rerollable charge roll of 7”-8” (sense you add +1”. You make the charge if you get within 1”.)

 

So you essentially have that squad surrender the first turn of the game as you have to go footwalking. Rhino/Razors mounted squads are similar in this regard too. Now shooty tides get interesting. You’re effective threat range is 18” by your ability to be a threat is 30”. Where Tide Squads fight Twice a battle round (for roughly a net 5 Strength 4 AP 0 attacks. 1 Pistol, 2 Melee attacks each turn).

 

A Shooty tide squad can shoot and engage turn 1. So when/if they choose to engage in melee they have 1 less net attack. Sense 2 Bolter Rapid, is and 1 melee attack each round. But turn 1 they can use their specials and heavy to engage the enemy from afar. And if they get charged they will have 2(tide-2) Overwatch Bolters. So let’s say a 12 man tide, you’ll get 20 Bolters, Heavy (Grav/Missile/HvyBolter) And 4x Plasma (Or GravGun). That equates to around 1-2 Plasma, 3 Bolter and 1-2 Heavy Hits. That will roughly kill 2 MeQ on overwatch before rerolls.

 

But given we are not advancing and can get two turns of shooting, outside rapid you will kill 3 MeQ. Inside Rapid you will kill 5 Meq + charging killing another 1-2 Meq So killing 10 Meq in perfect storm scenario).

 

A tide squad (double flamer/doubleSword) instead will on shooting kill 3 Meq (2.77 if curious). And then charging killing another 3 (3.4 of curious on exact). In optimal scenarios you note the shooty tide kills 3-4 more marines. But because they didn’t advance they are gonna need 11”-12” to make charge of the enemy unit was static. Additionally if combat last more than a turn, and in the unlikely scenerio each squad doesn’t loss anyone the melee squad will kill potentially double the shooty squad. The latter is important because making squads smaller matters as you can Pistol yourself out of combat. And then charge again. Meaning in the grind combat, you want melee tide and if you want to claim a middle objective that is vital.

 

However a tide storming backfield, where your less likely to get a grind combat. You want to go the shooty loadout while you lose a couple wounds your effective threat range, is notably larger than that of a melee tide squad (18” vs 13” or a turn of movement). And unlike a melee tide whose only able to project a threat at 18”, a shooty tide can do so at 30” (able to cover about half the board).

 

It’s all about proper tools for the proper job. And what you want that unit to do within your army game plan. The crusader squad greatest single asset is its strategic flexibility. There is almost no role, a crusader squad cannot effectively or reasonably fill

[Neophyte for your Ryghts]

...[loadsa awesome stuff]

 

It’s all about proper tools for the proper job. And what you want that unit to do within your army game plan. The crusader squad greatest single asset is its strategic flexibility. There is almost no role, a crusader squad cannot effectively or reasonably fill

Well I've been digesting this for a couple of days, looking at my sprues, etc. And I think that final couple sentences hit home. I've been worrying too much about making a single kind of unit from my models - but I've got a lot of other options to consider.

 

To that end, my Black Templar Upgrade Sprue is on its way to my local store and I will use my 30 Mk IVs to create 3 crusader squads. 1 will go full zeal, and rock chainswords (double power swords, double flamers) with some combat knife scouts, and the other two will go shooty with plas, maybe heavy bolter or missile launcher. Melee for objectives, shooty for shooting. That really helps, as I also wanted to make a kill team, and now I have a very good excuse for that we variety of models.

 

I just hope I can get this crusade started this edition :P

 

Thanks for the helpful reasoning everyone and apologies for the derail Mordian - looking forward to hearing more of your exploits!

[Mordian Glory]

*Blows dust of thread*

 

Greetings once more brothers!

 

I know it has been many moons since I last updated my thread. I have to confess, my head was turned by the temptations of the heretic and I have been busy working on my Genestealer cult these last few month.

 

However, as a way for me to repent my sins I bring to you another Black Tide Battle Report! This time I face of against our brothers in the Raven Guard. Enjoy!

 

[Medjugorje]

As i watched the armies I was sure that the Raven Guard player would win. Very cool armies by the way. In our tournaments you never see such armies. There are just the top tier armies - not just in the bigger events.

 

What ranking do you reached? ( I think it was a tournement right?)

Edited April 2, 2019 by Medjugorje

[Mordian Glory]

As i watched the armies I was sure that the Raven Guard player would win. Very cool armies by the way. In our tournaments you never see such armies. There are just the top tier armies - not just in the bigger events.

 

What ranking do you reached? ( I think it was a tournement right?)

 

Thanks for watching :D

 

The Black Tide, and mass marines in general, is a deceptively good army. People think marines are bad, but they are actually quite tough to kill and pump out a nice steady amount of damage. In the tournament I went to I did pretty well.  I won 2 out of 3 games and the game I lost was only by 3  ITC points. I placed 14th out of 40 players. It was a pretty competitive event and I didnt see any soft lists, lots of IG and Knights. 

[Medjugorje]

how does it works against knights?

[Brother Christopher]

I really like watching your battle reports. Your games are special - they seem really cool and you manage great results with an army that does appear to be "sub par" in the current meta (no offence, but you know, with Imperial Knights and Imperial Guard being all the rage, a black tide of regular marines seems hardly competitive).

[Mordian Glory]

how does it works against knights?

 

It can hold its own against knights, but its not an anti knight list. To be fair, Knights are still very strong so the fact that the army has a chance to win against knights is pretty good.

 

Because I am bringing many special weapons (24 in total, majority plasma) and power weapons means that I have good damage output both in range and combat. I was able to kill 2 armigers in 1 turn and I can often cripple a knight a turn, but it can take me 2 turns to kill one. 

 

The main strength of the army is that there are a lot of bodies on the ground, but they are relatively tough bodies too. Having 100 Marines with Prepared Positions, to get a 2+ save, goes a long way to neuter the first turn alpha strike of most armies, including knights. 

[Jacques Corbin]

As i watched the armies I was sure that the Raven Guard player would win. Very cool armies by the way. In our tournaments you never see such armies. There are just the top tier armies - not just in the bigger events.

 

What ranking do you reached? ( I think it was a tournement right?)

Same in my area. Most of us just try and play to have fun, but there are always those WAAC players that show up for events with whatever they netlisted from the last major tournament. I am starting to see why people form private clubs, and just play home games.

 

Still, that guy was playing Raven Guard like they were Tau. We are still ninjas! Leave the gunlines to the Smurfs or the Dark Angels!

[Firepower]

 

I know it has been many moons since I last updated my thread. I have to confess, my head was turned by the temptations of the heretic and I have been busy working on my Genestealer cult these last few month.

 

 

Paddlin.