Chaos codex release date 8/5/17

[Khornestar]

It seems very strange to permit the cult units as troops option as recently as the index, and then suddenly reverse course with the codex. Similarly, they added stipulations for not being able to take marks in certain situations, such as: 

 

 

Page 45 – Servants of Khorne Add the following to the end of this paragraph: ‘If a unit has the Tzeentch, Nurgle or Slaanesh keywords, it cannot be from the World Eaters Legion.’

 

Leaving that out of the codex makes even less sense, since it's extra clarification for how they want the game to be played. Why even go through the effort, if it doesn't matter in the codex? Even if WE are getting their own book down the line, why leave it out at all? 

 

I think the objective secured thing for troops is the only theory that could make sense. Kind of a silly way to handle it IMO, but maybe that's the case. Could have just said something along the lines of, "If this unit is taken as a troop choice, it loses the Objective Secured rule." And I think that would also be lame, but at least it doesn't change your army composition (or list-building, whatever). I guess it really is possible they just don't want us to be able to use those units as troops any more, but I guess I'm having a hard time understanding why.

 

It's tough to work on multiple files or versions of files at once, so it's understandable that things get left out or slip through the cracks in the final product. They'll be super quick with errata, regardless of the content, so we'll see in a couple of weeks (hopefully way sooner!).

Edited August 10, 2017 by Juggernut

[Lord Asvaldir]

I mean the marine codex came out what, just under two weeks ago and they already have an errata out. I'm sure we can expect a similar speedy release time for a chaos errata.

[Bloody Legionnaire]

It seems very strange to permit the cult units as troops option as recently as the index, and then suddenly reverse course with the codex. Similarly, they added stipulations for not being able to take marks in certain situations, such as: 

 

 

Page 45 – Servants of Khorne Add the following to the end of this paragraph: ‘If a unit has the Tzeentch, Nurgle or Slaanesh keywords, it cannot be from the World Eaters Legion.’

 

Leaving that out of the codex makes even less sense, since it's extra clarification for how they want the game to be played. Why even go through the effort, if it doesn't matter in the codex? Even if WE are getting their own book down the line, why leave it out at all? 

 

I think the objective secured thing for troops is the only theory that could make sense. Kind of a silly way to handle it IMO, but maybe that's the case. Could have just said something along the lines of, "If this unit is taken as a troop choice, it loses the Objective Secured rule." And I think that would also be lame, but at least it doesn't change your army composition (or list-building, whatever). I guess it really is possible they just don't want us to be able to use those units as troops any more, but I guess I'm having a hard time understanding why.

 

It's tough to work on multiple files or versions of files at once, so it's understandable that things get left out or slip through the cracks in the final product. They'll be super quick with errata, regardless of the content, so we'll see in a couple of weeks (hopefully way sooner!).

See I'm on the opposite end of the spectrum. I don't like to speculate much.. but I feel like that makes more support for WEs getting their own codex. We already know the Index is not invalid thus that rule about World Eater's Army is not invalid. 

 

If the new CSM codex is to be focused on Black Legion and Renegades alone then sure.. it makes sense. None of the other cult units are listed as troops? Death Guard and Thousand Sons players would be in the same boat otherwise until their codex drops wouldn't they? Then again we didn't expect it for Death Guard and Thousand Sons anyway because we knew they were getting their own Codex. 

Edited August 11, 2017 by Bloody Legionnaire

[Sersi]

I'm honestly not overly worried about getting Noise Marines as troops or not for now. Cultists are cheap enough to fill the troop slots and are worth taking anyway. I can wait with troop Noise Marines until we get our own Codex whenever that may happen.

 

I don't own even a single cultist. Having a lot of cultists isn't exactly fluffy for EC, what with us cooking them down to make "stimulants".  

[Sersi]

I'll be devastated if I can't have Noise Marines as troops in my army. They've been troops since the 3.5 dex and without them I'm struggling to field a Battalion. Noise Marines aren't viable as an Elite choice in my opinion, not when we have Dreads, Termies, Possessed and Chosen in the same slot.

 

I've used Noise Marines as troops through the good times and the bad and this could well be the straw that breaks the camel's back 

 

I'm right there with you. I don't want cultists in my army. While regular CSM are at best meh, and our Legion trait does nothing to improve them.  EC want as many CP as possible to use their Stratagems.  Sigh...I guess 3 naked MSU CSM units is the way to go with the Battalion. It 195 pts for 15 bolter marines but at least I don't have to resort to cultists. Still is chaps my hide that I could get 10 Noise Marines with Sonic Blasters for those points or 27 Daemonettes. 

Edited August 11, 2017 by Sersi

[Panzer]

 

I'm honestly not overly worried about getting Noise Marines as troops or not for now. Cultists are cheap enough to fill the troop slots and are worth taking anyway. I can wait with troop Noise Marines until we get our own Codex whenever that may happen.

 

I don't own even a single cultist. Having a lot of cultists isn't exactly fluffy for EC, what with us cooking them down to make "stimulants".  

 

Eh Slaaneshi Cultists will be Slaaneshi Cultists. If there's a party to be had, they will be there. ;)

[Commissar K.]

So far the Codex is a supplement with the Index in mind. The way Emperor's Children work from the Index is not covered in the Codex. Likewise basic Daemons are in it and Greater Daemons are not. To keep it really short, to me the Codex is just an update in book form. 
- More as 110 pages of lore and art that explain the background that the Index didn't cover at all.
- New costs for units
- New costs for equipment
- New Legion traits
- New Warlord traits 

etc.



Some things:
- <Legion> is mentioned and it's also explained that you cannot pick Death Guard or Thousand Sons as Keyword because they will be covered in different Codex.
- <Mark of Chaos> is mentioned now in conjunction with Legion World Eaters and Legion Emperors Children, as in that World Eaters must have the Khorne Keyword and Emperors Children must have the Slaanesh Keyword. The option to not thake a mark remains otherwise. 
- The way the Index described how World Eaters with the Khorne Keyword become Troops is not covered in this book. The same applies to Emperor's Children. 
- All Chaos Index Datasheets that have changed directly or indirectly in terms of Wargear are in the book. 
- The Exalted Champion is suprisingly awesome in my opinion, re-rolling failed to wound for <Legion> within 6" really makes him an interesting chap. 
- The Troop Choices in this Codex are CSM, CC, Bloodletters, Horrors, PB, Daemonettes.
- The Elites in this Codex are the same as they are initially revealed in the Index (so minus the datasheet examples with fixed Keyword)
- The Fast, the small Warp Talon Lightning Claw part is also corrected.
- The Heavy is cool because Obliterators went to Assault 4 with their weapons, which indeed is a whole lot better as the previous Assault 2.

It's likely there are many more changes, have to do a specific side by side comparison. As before the whole turn X into Troop isn't in the Codex. However it's also not mentioned in the Codex that it acts to replace the Index. I hope Games Workshop will give some statements on how they intend it as the intend is quite unclear in certain cases again. 

Book still feels like a rushjob, don't mind it so much but it's intend isn't always clearified in wording, so as per usual now in 40K I guess more Errata will come up. Then again that's what you get if 1 Codex a month isn't enough  



 

Edited August 11, 2017 by Commissar K.

[Panzer]

I agree on the thought that the Codex is an update to the Index. It goes in line with GW telling us to use the Index stuff when it's not in the Codex and that we can just use the Index stuff if we don't have/want the Codex. It's not a new edition of the Codex like we were used to.

 

So if you want to use the most up to date rules, simply check if something is in the Codex. If yes then use those rules, if not then use the Index rules. Easy as that.

 

 

A small thing tho. The Bloodletters etc. are not more troop choices for CSM in the Codex than they were with the Index. The only faction keyword they share is still just "CHAOS". GW already said that they included their Datasheets just so you don't have to carry two books if you want to summon the basic Daemons.

[Commissar K.]

Oh yeah I agree. So far there just seems to be some hinting going on that the "Army rules" presented in the Index couldn't be used in conjunction with the Codex. While there is litterly nothing in the Codex that states as such or suggests as such.
- What is stated is that the entries in the Codex cannot change their <Legion> to Death Guard and Thousand Sons, meaning that these are exclusive to some degree. Which is also logical because these will have their own Codex with likely updated Army rules also. 

All in all though I think the Daemons where added for troops also because of the cost update which is really cool and indeed the common inclusion they have with the CSM. It's still to some extend a pitty that not even Word Bearers can include them for Legion Trait purposes though...

The one thing I'm personally looking the most forward to is giving Obliterators another shot. They still are really poor Melee dudes but Assault 4 is twice as good as before and I didn't dislike them extremely before, just found them rather static. 

Cheers, 

Edit: What is also really a shame is that the Contents of the Codex isn't correct. Khârn is not on page 140 and neither are Khorne Berzerkers LOL
 

Edited August 11, 2017 by Commissar K.

[THUNDERFISTS]

On the Daemons being included - you could just take an extra detachment like Patrol with 1-3 squads of lessers and a Herald and still keep the Legion rules in your CSM detachment, correct? I think that's how Marines can still get their chapter rules and take extra detachments of other Imperial Soup and be battleforged under IMPERIUM.

 

Or just spend those points on Reserves and summon them in, I guess. As far as I understand, it isn't that difficult to play a mixed force if you want and still get all the new rules. Unless I'm wrong from a lack of personal codex reviewing.

[Panzer]

That's correct. You can include them in your army but not in your Legion detachment.

[Commissar K.]

Rushed wording is really funny though.

Currently Lord of Terror tells us that opponents have to use three dice for a Moral test and use the highest result. Unlike previous editions, no dice has to be dropped?! Wondeful.

[Ashe Darke]

So my Death Guard army can't use the new points for things like PMs and Princes which to a degree borrow from the Index?

[Panzer]

I'd say go ahead and use them. It won't be for long anyway until you get your new Codex.

[Ashe Darke]

I'm hoping September 2nd rather than 30th.

[Commissar K.]

Edit:

 

So my Death Guard army can't use the new points for things like PMs and Princes which to a degree borrow from the Index?

You can use the points but you cannot use all updated Battlesheets basically.

 

Which isn't huge other than for things like Obliterators, who are for example now assault 4 instead of 2.

So my Death Guard army can't use the new points for things like PMs and Princes which to a degree borrow from the Index?

 

Edited August 11, 2017 by Commissar K.

[Bat33.1]

So my Death Guard army can't use the new points for things like PMs and Princes which to a degree borrow from the Index?

DG and TS are not in the CSM codex as they are to get their own books sooner rather than later according to Jes Bickham on WHTV yesterday.

 

He also confirmed that being unable to take NM/KB as troops is not a mistake and will not be changed by an FAQ nor will missing lord options such as the jugger lord. along the lines of we don't make models for that and converting is too tricky for newbies - GM NDK just saying  - and frustratingly wouldn't/couldn't answer the disc cavalry losing legion benefits question either. So a bit of a mixed bag really but apparently everything is 'cool and awesome' now so it will be fine  

[Commissar K.]

 

He also confirmed that being unable to take NM/KB as troops is not a mistake and will not be changed by an FAQ nor will missing lord options such as the jugger lord. along the lines of we don't make models for that and converting is too tricky for newbies -

 

 

Where is the confirmation that you cannot use the Index Army rules anymore? In addition where does this suggestion actually come from? 

 

As far as I know the Index is still perfectly valid but the Codex is an update. Meaning you can still obtain NM and KB as Troop choices, provided you use the Army rules for World Eaters and Emperors Children who are in the Index. Likewise this Codex hasn't invalidated the use of Death Guard or Thousand Sons armies either, or Daemonic Legions for that matter... 

Edited August 11, 2017 by Commissar K.

[kenshin138]

I'll be devastated if I can't have Noise Marines as troops in my army. They've been troops since the 3.5 dex and without them I'm struggling to field a Battalion. Noise Marines aren't viable as an Elite choice in my opinion, not when we have Dreads, Termies, Possessed and Chosen in the same slot.

 

I've used Noise Marines as troops through the good times and the bad and this could well be the straw that breaks the camel's back 

Vanguard detachment gives you 6 Elites slots. You could easily run 2x Vanguard which would give you 2 HQ minimum, 6 Elites minimum, and option to add beyond that. So you could field a Lord, a Sorcerer, 6 units of noise marines, 2 dreads, 2 units of terminators, etc. legally. Granted, you'd be +2CP vs. +3 for Battalion but it certainly isn't unplayable. 

[Sception]

Index units are still valid, you just use them with the most updayed costs. If this applies to bike and daemonic steed characters, then it applies to WE troop zerks and EC troop sonics as well, since they are their own units with their own entries in the index.

[Aothaine]

I think that all of the cults will have their own codices eventually. This is the book if you want to have a crazy blender army. It might not look as pretty but it has a ton of teeth. I really like it and don't mind taking the cult units as elites. 

[Commissar K.]

I think that all of the cults will have their own codices eventually. This is the book if you want to have a crazy blender army. It might not look as pretty but it has a ton of teeth. I really like it and don't mind taking the cult units as elites. 

I don't think that will be the case. What I do see with this Codex is that is specifically states that you need more 40K rules for this and that this is a supplement. A supplement that seems to be designed for fans of Lore and Matched play really. 

 

The Codex does not invalidate the use of Cult Units as Troops as per Army rules found in the Index. If GW wants to invalidate Index Datasheet and army options I wouldn't mind but I would like to know where they exactly said as such. 

 

In many ways this Codex is just an update to this edition but both Codex and Index are still very much part of this whole edition. Basically this Codex has a few restrictions but it does not state the Index Army options are now not available... Unless Im missing some direct statement from GW on this.

Edited August 11, 2017 by Commissar K.

[Sception]

They will have their own books eventually, but for World Eaters and Noise Marines eventually is very clearly still a long ways a way, otherwise they wouldn't be in this book to begin with.  So since their books are so fare away, they're in this one to tide them over in a slightly more fleshed out way than the index.  But if they don't at least get their cult units as troops, the codex is utterly failing in that job, and they might as well have kept with the index no matter how long the wait will be otherwise.

 

Frankly, much as I like a lot of what's going on in this book, and at GW in general lately, I still feel like there are a lot of terrible decisions getting forced on the game end of things by suits who don't understand what their doing.

[Sception]

It absolutely does infalidate army rules in the index.  What it doesn't invalidate are index unit entries that don't appear in the book, such as juggernaut lords, disc sorcerers, or troop berzerkers with the World Eaters keyword instead of the modular <Legion> keyword.

[Commissar K.]

It absolutely does infalidate army rules in the index.  

Source?

 

As what you are suggesting would mean that you cannot play Death Guard, Thousand Sons or Only Daemon armies anymore.

Edited August 11, 2017 by Commissar K.